Jump to content

Welcome to Obsidian Forum Community
Register now to gain access to all of our features. Once registered and logged in, you will be able to create topics, post replies to existing threads, give reputation to your fellow members, get your own private messenger, post status updates, manage your profile and so much more. If you already have an account, login here - otherwise create an account for free today!
Photo

The (un)usefullness of mages

mage balance hp casting

  • Please log in to reply
50 replies to this topic

#41
mikayel

mikayel

    (1) Prestidigitator

  • Members
  • 47 posts

^^ That only worked in Neverwinter Nights. In real DnD, to become an Eldrich Knight you needed a level of a combat primary class - the class requirement was proficiency with all martial weapons, which you couldn't take as a feat.


Oh crap, forgot about the first level delay on spell casting. Yeah, you took a level of a warrior class then you missed a spell-casting level on first Eldritch Knight level. Still, we can modify or change that with a simple house rule like "first level of EK gets casting as well" or a general "all martial weapon" proficiency.

#42
PsychoBlonde

PsychoBlonde

    Grand Rhetorist of the Obsidian Order

  • Members
  • 525 posts
  • Location:Ohio
  • Pillars of Eternity Silver Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer
  • Deadfire Silver Backer
  • Fig Backer

As for making a fighter-mage type of character, why not just bring up multi-classing or prestige classes? Eldritch Knight basically made any wizard a good BAB decent HP gish at the cost of one caster level.


Actually, you had to give up two, because in order to become an Eldritch Knight you needed proficiency with ALL martial weapons, which you could only get from taking a level in a class with that proficiency--taking the Martial Weapon Proficiency feat gives you proficiency with ONE martial weapon. :p

Whoops nvm, somebody else noticed.

Edited by PsychoBlonde, 04 October 2012 - 09:29 AM.


#43
PsychoBlonde

PsychoBlonde

    Grand Rhetorist of the Obsidian Order

  • Members
  • 525 posts
  • Location:Ohio
  • Pillars of Eternity Silver Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer
  • Deadfire Silver Backer
  • Fig Backer

I just hope that there are some interesting non-combat or at least non damage spells... I know there's a lot of spells that don't do much sense in a PC game if it doesn't support the mechanics but spells like leomund's tiny hut, water walking, flying bla... there's just more to a mage than being a walking artillery and lately in games all a wizard could do was bomb the place...


If only there were more to being a fighter than swinging a sword.

#44
ogrezilla

ogrezilla

    (7) Enchanter

  • Members
  • 883 posts
  • Pillars of Eternity Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer

I just hope that there are some interesting non-combat or at least non damage spells... I know there's a lot of spells that don't do much sense in a PC game if it doesn't support the mechanics but spells like leomund's tiny hut, water walking, flying bla... there's just more to a mage than being a walking artillery and lately in games all a wizard could do was bomb the place...


If only there were more to being a fighter than swinging a sword.

I hope there is.

#45
curryinahurry

curryinahurry

    (6) Magician

  • Members
  • 618 posts
  • Location:In Transit
  • Pillars of Eternity Silver Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer
  • Deadfire Silver Backer
  • Fig Backer

I just hope that there are some interesting non-combat or at least non damage spells... I know there's a lot of spells that don't do much sense in a PC game if it doesn't support the mechanics but spells like leomund's tiny hut, water walking, flying bla... there's just more to a mage than being a walking artillery and lately in games all a wizard could do was bomb the place...


If only there were more to being a fighter than swinging a sword.

I hope there is.


There will be more to fighters. Obsidian has pretty much spelled it out with their descriptions of Soul manipulation. I think some of DS 3 will find its way into this game; not in an action-y way, but in how classes can have powers and abilities that can do more than the class stereotypes.

#46
Gurkog

Gurkog

    Tactical Response Unit of the Obsidian Order

  • Members
  • 242 posts
  • Location:Oregon farmlands
  • Pillars of Eternity Backer
In BG2 the only character that was OP in combat was my Inquisitor Paladin using the legendary great sword. He was virtually immune to all magic because of his high saves, virtually immune to melee because of stupid high armor, could dispel any enhancements that might make an enemy able to hurt him, could walk through pretty much any trap unscathed, but he had 3 weaknesses that I can recall... mindflayer insta kill, maze/imprison and can't open locks. I don't know how Paladins faired after that game, but it was kind of stupid how easy it was to do most of BG2 with him.

#47
Lord Lierdan Firkraag

Lord Lierdan Firkraag

    (1) Prestidigitator

  • Members
  • 17 posts
  • Location:Turkey

In BG2 the only character that was OP in combat was my Inquisitor Paladin using the legendary great sword. He was virtually immune to all magic because of his high saves, virtually immune to melee because of stupid high armor, could dispel any enhancements that might make an enemy able to hurt him, could walk through pretty much any trap unscathed, but he had 3 weaknesses that I can recall... mindflayer insta kill, maze/imprison and can't open locks. I don't know how Paladins faired after that game, but it was kind of stupid how easy it was to do most of BG2 with him.

 

In BG2 you are a Demigod. (starting the game with a level 7 char seems a little bit unusual isn't it?) And with TOB, unbelieavable items appeares, remember Crom Faeyr? 25 str and +5 thaco? Anyways, later in the game, with companions like Minsc and Korgan, battles become easier and closer to the end, game turnes out to be a spiritual journey. Protagonist is overpowered but enemies are overpowered too. Maze is a brutal spell, imprison ends you up in morgue. Those are not little flaws for a BG2 char. There are lots of creatures that can cast maze/imprison. (Of course, if you find The Cloak of Reflection, spells will not be a problem for you) And Mind Flayers/Beholders are really challenging for a paladin. The fortress of underdark is pretty rough to play. Moving forward is not easy. I crawled a lot in TOB. It is really difficult. 

 

The only thing broken in BG2 was sorceress. There wasn't even a main attribute to build up a sorceress. Almost every char with average attributes (like 9 int, 10 wis, 10 charisma) could become so powerful. I played BG2 with a sorceress some time ago and game seemed clearly easy. At later levels, sorceress becomes a godess.



#48
Bonecrusher

Bonecrusher

    (1) Prestidigitator

  • Members
  • 34 posts
  • Pillars of Eternity Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer

In the last few discissions I noticed an irritatinbly high number of people who think that mages, once low on spells, are a total dead weight.


Lets for example take your average D&D spellcaster. Are spells his main thing? Yes. But that isn't the only thing he can do. The thing holding mack mages the most is their low amount of HP* and poeple not using them to their full potential

*something I have campaigning for from day 1 is that health is determined by CON alone and class has no bearing on it. This would make mages far more survivable in combat as tehy could have as much HP as a fighter.


One thing to decide when building a character (of any class) is what approach to take.
- focus on maximizing it's strengths
- focus on minimizing weakneses
- balanced approach

Now, msot peoepl I know go for the first. Got a fighter? All the equipment and skilsl will be there to make him even stronger and more durable! Got a mage? All equipment and skills/feats go to makeing him a stronger spellcaster.

That is a valid aproach, but overspecialization is overrated. It works wonderfull as long as everything is going according to plan. But if it doesn't, if you loose that super-specialized tank - suddenly there's total chaos.

 

Class system of D&D (or similar systems) ties players' hands.

It is easy to say "don't overspecialize your mage, give combat skills", but especially D&D 2e (e.g. Baldur's Gate) forces players to overspecialize.

 

Think about BG2, if you want to use high powered spells at the end game, you need to overspecialize your mage and go magic all the way. Some people use kensai/mage, but even for it, you need to follow a specific formula. Also, dual class supresses your previous class. Dual class system's other handicap is, you get a 10/10 (two weak classes) instead of 20 (one strong class) level of character.

 

Skill based systems like Elder Scrolls, Ultima (Online), World Of Darkness, help the mages (or magi, if you prefer) to get some combat skills. For example, if the system allows you to maximize 5 skills, select 3-4 magic skills and 1-2 combat skills. I like to play fire mage / shaman who can also fight like a warrior (Natsu from Fairy Tail, Hitsugaya from Bleach, etc...). But in class systems, if you select more than one class, you can not maximize your skills in desired tree/path.

 

What I mean is,

in D&D 3e, If you make a 15th lvl Sorcerer / 5th lvl Fighter, you will not know/cast 8th and 9th level spells like a 20th lvl Sorcerer, and you will not fight like a 20th lvl Fighter (your base attack bonus will be +12/+2 instead of +20/+15/+10/+5)
However, in Skyrim, you can combine pure mage ( Alteration, Conjuration, Destruction, Restoration, Enchanting) with pure warrior (Archery, Block, Heavy Armor, One Handed, Smithing) and get a warrior/mage (One Handed, Heavy Armor, Destruction, Conjuration, Restoration) who can max both Destruction (like a pure mage) and One Handed (like a pure warrior) skills.



#49
Chairchucker

Chairchucker

    (5) Thaumaturgist

  • Members
  • 476 posts
  • Pillars of Eternity Silver Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer
  • Deadfire Backer
  • Fig Backer

 (starting the game with a level 7 char seems a little bit unusual isn't it?)

 

Not really, no. (The hint as to the reason it is not that strange is in the '2' part of the name of BG2.)

 

Also, I remember hearing it suggested that the most powerful character type one could make was a Kensai-Mage. Kensai's lack of armour was offset by having stoneskin and mage armour permanently cast, and then you just pick exclusively spells that make your character better at chopping people in pieces, or stripping enemy mages of their defenses. Something like that.



#50
Brother Pain

Brother Pain

    (2) Evoker

  • Members
  • 90 posts
  • Location:Denmark
  • Steam:brotherpain
  • Xbox Gamertag:BrotherFPain
  • Pillars of Eternity Silver Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer

I hope wizards won't overshadow most other classes like they tend to
do in D&D. I'd rather have them comparable to fighters in power and
utility than having them be completely overpowered until they run out of
spells.

 

How many in here prefer FallOut 1&2 over FallOut 3&NV?

 

I defenitely preferred the original Fallouts over the realtime 3d games.



#51
Alexjh

Alexjh

    (4) Theurgist

  • Members
  • 294 posts
  • Location:Northants, UK
  • Pillars of Eternity Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer
  • Deadfire Backer
  • Fig Backer

The thing is here, personally I am strongly in favour of a system whereby how useful a wizard is when out of spells is entirely dependant on how the player builds them.

 

If you transcribe the concept of "Wizard" onto, being a professor of Science at a University, to be such a professor requires a basic level of competance which represents this person being a level 1 Science Professor with all the skills required for that.  However, if a pair of identical twins are both equal level/payscale Science Professors that gets them so far, but it's the "extracurricular" stuff which differentiates between them.  This extracurricular stuff is what is equivical to the player choices during levelup - so, in the case of of Twin 1, he might love science so much he just reads about science all day long, and as such, be pretty much incompetant at anything else, while his brother might go camping, woodwork, shooting and campaigning as his hobbies.  This means that although as a scientist he isn't as knowledgable as his twin, he's a lot more versatile and isn't stuck any time he is in a situation that isn't about science.  

 

The players choice is deciding where on this spectrum they want to be, a specialist or a generalist - as long as Obsidian give you the options to place yourself on this scale they shouldn't and probably won't be perscribing where on it you are.


  • Lephys likes this





Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: mage, balance, hp, casting

0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users