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Alternatives to Vancian or Cooldowns? Other suggestions?

cooldown rest magic inn fatigue health vanacian

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#41
TrashMan

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Interestingly enough, I didn't find the holy cows some of you speak of (MotB, PST) so interesting...hard ot pin down exactly why. Maybe the whole philosophical/metaphysical concept didn't set well with me. Or the plot....meh.


Either way, fatigue seem to me to be a very realistic system while also very powerfull adn flexible.

#42
IndiraLightfoot

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What I want:
-Plenty of spell- and weapon-attacks to choose from
-Strategy - looking for good ways to combine the above for a certain encounter
-Using "pause" if I wish to assign my party's various responses in a split second in a complicated encounter
-More strategy: where I place the characters on the screen and how and when I use certain spells and skills should matter (but I need not have the motor skills and stress tolerance of a NASA-pilot)

What I don't want:
-Hasty clicking of combos,
-A few spammable spells on quick cooldown
-Repeating tedious buffs and other spells (see another post of mine)
-Realism, as in fatigue, degrading armor, hunger, thirst, loo-woos

#43
TrashMan

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An archer should stock up before going on a longer expedition, he should collect arrows, repair broken ones if possible. And he always has his backup weapons.

However in most games you don't act this out. It's rare to have a game where you collect arrows from corpses or repair them. A lot of players would complain that this was too tedious.


What makes you think it has to be tedious?

#44
DCParry

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He and the party go traveling. They've been on the road for 2 hours and the mages maximum fatigue has gone down, so now he's at 90/90.

Max fatigue goes down as the day goes by and as you do physicly demanding things (long journesy, running, etc..). Even if you don't cast any spells, you will need sleep.



Resting should be a part of any true RPG. It gives inns and villages a clear purpose. It is a safe haven to gather information, prepare, stock up, rest and heal.




See, to me, this just sounds tedious. Resting was really only included when it served a functional purpose. A functional purpose that was ported from a different medium into CRPG's. There is nothing inherent in resting that enriches an RPG. Inns and such serve whatever purpose the devs want them to serve. They can still be places to gather and interact, but pressing a rest button has always struck me as a strange, artificial action. Do I have to press the "use the bathroom" button as well?
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#45
DCParry

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An archer should stock up before going on a longer expedition, he should collect arrows, repair broken ones if possible. And he always has his backup weapons.

However in most games you don't act this out. It's rare to have a game where you collect arrows from corpses or repair them. A lot of players would complain that this was too tedious.


What makes you think it has to be tedious?


See, this can sort of tedium can be made less obvious. Instead of looting every shot corpse, you automatically receive a portion of spent ammunition, modified by a flecher or scavenger skill, minus those that break through predetermined criteria (maybe all critical hits are un-retrievable - you can't quite pry it out of the ogre's skull).
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#46
Jasede

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Where does this "my mage has to do something every battle" come from?

Besides, how badly do you use your mages if yours didn't? You can buy as many wands as you like. Then there's magical slings and darts.

Do you really want a game where your mage casts a spell every round? Boring and repetitive.

Edit: Scrolls, anyone?

#47
Shevek

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Resting has been done very well in some games. The best implementation of resting in a game I have ever played has been in Realms of Arkania: Star Trail. In That one, you set up camp, picked the order or who kept watch, tended to the sick, hunted, gethered herbs, etc. It added quite a bit.

#48
IndiraLightfoot

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Well spoken, DCParry! For all of us who have played these computer games since the 80s soon realized that "resting" in a digital game context was nothing like resting in a session of pen-n-paper role playing. Just think of NWN2, there resting was just a countdown, which certainly gives the countdown-discussion an interesting twist. It has played out its role, and so has a lot of tedious clicking and other boring chores that were part and parcel of many pen-n-paper ports to the digital arena of games. There must be loads of better ways to address RPG adventuring in a computer game today. And countdowns and passives can be made into whatever new Obsidian wants to do with them. I certainly do not like many ARPGs and MMOs of late, and wouldn't want those systems for a party RPG inspired by, say, BG2, Planescape and MotB. But if something takes some enjoyment out of a game, making it meaningless, tedious or even absurd, then those systems should be replaced with new systems, and that is not the same as click-fest-streamlining, it's just common sense.

Edited by IndiraLightfoot, 03 October 2012 - 04:27 AM.


#49
Shevek

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I would argue it is best to fix things than remove them. If one simply removed items that were not implemented perfectly, you end up with less features. If you improve things, you end up with more features that are great.

I would love to see them implement rest well in this game. It HAS been done well in the past and it could be done well now. They are not going Vancian, but I could see the value of using rest as a mechanic whereby players could use rest to recover morale, fatigue, heal wounds/ailments, gather herbs, hunt and prepare their slate of spells (even if spell uses regen, perhaps spell swapping could be done at camp).

The main thing, I think, is to add risk/reward to resting and to severely limit saving since the real culprit, I think, is overuse of save/load ("oops, that rest resulted in my getting ambushed, well, I will just reload...").

Edited by Shevek, 03 October 2012 - 04:41 AM.

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#50
TrashMan

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He and the party go traveling. They've been on the road for 2 hours and the mages maximum fatigue has gone down, so now he's at 90/90.

Max fatigue goes down as the day goes by and as you do physicly demanding things (long journesy, running, etc..). Even if you don't cast any spells, you will need sleep.

Resting should be a part of any true RPG. It gives inns and villages a clear purpose. It is a safe haven to gather information, prepare, stock up, rest and heal.


See, to me, this just sounds tedious. Resting was really only included when it served a functional purpose. A functional purpose that was ported from a different medium into CRPG's. There is nothing inherent in resting that enriches an RPG. Inns and such serve whatever purpose the devs want them to serve. They can still be places to gather and interact, but pressing a rest button has always struck me as a strange, artificial action. Do I have to press the "use the bathroom" button as well?



Tedious? Dude, try traveling for the whole day and telling me resting is pointless.

It has purpsoe. It has worth.

Not only does it make the world more real, it also fulfils a logical purpose and gives towns and inns more character.


And that "bathroom" bit is getting old. An argument that never worked because it can be extended to everything.

#51
DCParry

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I would argue it is best to fix things than remove them. If one simply removed items that were not implemented perfectly, you end up with less features. If you improve things, you end up with more features that are great.

I would love to see them implement rest well in this game. It HAS been done well in the past and it could be done well now. They are not going Vancian, but I could see the value of using rest as a mechanic whereby players could use rest to recover morale, fatigue, heal wounds/ailments, gather herbs, hunt and prepare their slate of spells (even if spell uses regen, perhaps spell swapping could be done at camp).

The main thing, I think, is to add risk/reward to resting and to severely limit saving since the real culprit, I think, is overuse of save/load ("oops, that rest resulted in my getting ambushed, well, I will just reload...").


I agree, but we should ask what is the point is resting as well. Does it serve any useful purpose? Do we miraculously heal multiple head and upper injuries after a good nights sleep? Will there be a rules that will send you into a coma if you rest right after a fight where you received a head injury? Is sleep the only way to regen soul energy, or whatever we use to magic stuff? If we are moving away from a memorization based magic system (and I hope we are), then the point of resting needs to be re-evaluated. Resting because we marching for 12 hours means we have to implement a consistent time passing system in the game. Which means actions and quests will probably have to be timed. I know we all like consequences and choices and such, but will those bandits hold the duke's daughter safe for the 4 weeks it takes you to get there because you hit some random encounters and Bob the Mage's eyeball was knocked out and you had to go to the hedge witch and she needed a shrub for her spell to fix it?

I think a fatigue bar might add a fun dimension and off the oppurtunity to think tactically, but I think it needs to be an active pool, that is something that you use to quicken or augment abilities. Making it a pool that drains constantly just doesn't sound fun. Again, it invited rest spamming and meta-gaming approached.

#52
TrashMan

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Well spoken, DCParry! For all of us who have played these computer games since the 80s soon realized that "resting" in a digital game context was nothing like resting in a session of pen-n-paper role playing.


Then make it more like resting in a PnP session.

#53
DCParry

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He and the party go traveling. They've been on the road for 2 hours and the mages maximum fatigue has gone down, so now he's at 90/90.

Max fatigue goes down as the day goes by and as you do physicly demanding things (long journesy, running, etc..). Even if you don't cast any spells, you will need sleep.

Resting should be a part of any true RPG. It gives inns and villages a clear purpose. It is a safe haven to gather information, prepare, stock up, rest and heal.


See, to me, this just sounds tedious. Resting was really only included when it served a functional purpose. A functional purpose that was ported from a different medium into CRPG's. There is nothing inherent in resting that enriches an RPG. Inns and such serve whatever purpose the devs want them to serve. They can still be places to gather and interact, but pressing a rest button has always struck me as a strange, artificial action. Do I have to press the "use the bathroom" button as well?



Tedious? Dude, try traveling for the whole day and telling me resting is pointless.

It has purpsoe. It has worth.

Not only does it make the world more real, it also fulfils a logical purpose and gives towns and inns more character.


And that "bathroom" bit is getting old. An argument that never worked because it can be extended to everything.


Yes, in real life it is necessary. However, I would rather experience other things besides setting up a camp in an RPG. Again, resting only makes sense if there is a reason for it. There has to be benefit beyond "being able to march another day". Pressing the button to "camp" is not an engaging or exiting experience, beyond the expectation of an attack.

#54
DCParry

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Well spoken, DCParry! For all of us who have played these computer games since the 80s soon realized that "resting" in a digital game context was nothing like resting in a session of pen-n-paper role playing.


Then make it more like resting in a PnP session.


Ah here we go.

The thing is, you can't.

CRPG can not duplicate PnP. They can adapt and try to mimic PnP environments and habits, but in the end (unless playing a co-op campaign) they are solitary experiences. You will not be arguing with your friends about who is watching first, who is cooking, who is going to investigation the spooky amusement park and so on.

#55
Shevek

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I would argue it is best to fix things than remove them. If one simply removed items that were not implemented perfectly, you end up with less features. If you improve things, you end up with more features that are great.

I would love to see them implement rest well in this game. It HAS been done well in the past and it could be done well now. They are not going Vancian, but I could see the value of using rest as a mechanic whereby players could use rest to recover morale, fatigue, heal wounds/ailments, gather herbs, hunt and prepare their slate of spells (even if spell uses regen, perhaps spell swapping could be done at camp).

The main thing, I think, is to add risk/reward to resting and to severely limit saving since the real culprit, I think, is overuse of save/load ("oops, that rest resulted in my getting ambushed, well, I will just reload...").


I agree, but we should ask what is the point is resting as well. Does it serve any useful purpose? Do we miraculously heal multiple head and upper injuries after a good nights sleep? Will there be a rules that will send you into a coma if you rest right after a fight where you received a head injury? Is sleep the only way to regen soul energy, or whatever we use to magic stuff? If we are moving away from a memorization based magic system (and I hope we are), then the point of resting needs to be re-evaluated. Resting because we marching for 12 hours means we have to implement a consistent time passing system in the game. Which means actions and quests will probably have to be timed. I know we all like consequences and choices and such, but will those bandits hold the duke's daughter safe for the 4 weeks it takes you to get there because you hit some random encounters and Bob the Mage's eyeball was knocked out and you had to go to the hedge witch and she needed a shrub for her spell to fix it?

I think a fatigue bar might add a fun dimension and off the oppurtunity to think tactically, but I think it needs to be an active pool, that is something that you use to quicken or augment abilities. Making it a pool that drains constantly just doesn't sound fun. Again, it invited rest spamming and meta-gaming approached.


The point of resting is as a means of mitigating whatever forms of attrition devs throw at us. Games need attrition as a means of making small encounter worth a damn. They must tire you out in some ways but players should have some means to recouperate at least partially prior to a big fight. In other words, the point of resting is to rest. So long as there is risk involved, rest is good and doesnt devolve into rest spamming,

It can serve other purposes too. So, would you rather recover a bunch of fatigue or perhaps spend some time near camp gathering herbs? Who will you have keep watch, if they keep watch, they will not recover as much, etc. If you have no one keep watch, you are likely to be ambushed. What do you do?

I would argue they should allow players to swap spells only at camp to prevent cheese like casting a buff or summoning something and then swapping it out and insta regening charges.

They do not need to time quests. All they have to do is as time passes in game or as players do things, add to a player's fatigue. Players could mitigate some of that with their constitution score. That is simple. BG 1/2 managed to do it. Also, they could make it so magic does not wipe away disease or poison in the blink of an eye. Some ailments could require curatives that must be gathered and/or applied at camp.

This could be pretty great if done well.

Edited by Shevek, 03 October 2012 - 05:11 AM.


#56
Shevek

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Well spoken, DCParry! For all of us who have played these computer games since the 80s soon realized that "resting" in a digital game context was nothing like resting in a session of pen-n-paper role playing.


Then make it more like resting in a PnP session.


Ah here we go.

The thing is, you can't.

CRPG can not duplicate PnP. They can adapt and try to mimic PnP environments and habits, but in the end (unless playing a co-op campaign) they are solitary experiences. You will not be arguing with your friends about who is watching first, who is cooking, who is going to investigation the spooky amusement park and so on.


Games have done what you say they haven't.

#57
DCParry

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Well spoken, DCParry! For all of us who have played these computer games since the 80s soon realized that "resting" in a digital game context was nothing like resting in a session of pen-n-paper role playing.


Then make it more like resting in a PnP session.


Ah here we go.

The thing is, you can't.

CRPG can not duplicate PnP. They can adapt and try to mimic PnP environments and habits, but in the end (unless playing a co-op campaign) they are solitary experiences. You will not be arguing with your friends about who is watching first, who is cooking, who is going to investigation the spooky amusement park and so on.


Games have done what you say they haven't.


Well, no, I can promise you no game has ever replicated my experience from PnP D&D.

#58
Shevek

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No one else's PnP experience has replicated anyone else's PnP experience either. That is a poor comparison.

Edited by Shevek, 03 October 2012 - 05:15 AM.


#59
TrashMan

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Resting because we marching for 12 hours means we have to implement a consistent time passing system in the game. Which means actions and quests will probably have to be timed. I know we all like consequences and choices and such, but will those bandits hold the duke's daughter safe for the 4 weeks it takes you to get there because you hit some random encounters and Bob the Mage's eyeball was knocked out and you had to go to the hedge witch and she needed a shrub for her spell to fix it?


Not necessarily. BG didn't have timed quests ( not that I tihnk timed quests are wrong. I'd love a few), but that character did get fatigued if you went a long time without resting.


I think a fatigue bar might add a fun dimension and off the oppurtunity to think tactically, but I think it needs to be an active pool, that is something that you use to quicken or augment abilities. Making it a pool that drains constantly just doesn't sound fun. Again, it invited rest spamming and meta-gaming approached.


Worked great for Jagged Alliance and in that game you can have up to 18 people.

#60
ogrezilla

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Where does this "my mage has to do something every battle" come from?

Besides, how badly do you use your mages if yours didn't? You can buy as many wands as you like. Then there's magical slings and darts.

Do you really want a game where your mage casts a spell every round? Boring and repetitive.

Edit: Scrolls, anyone?

I get why people would want it in games where you essentially only control one character like Kotor and dragon age. Even though you can switch between them, its really clunky and you are always only controlling one of them. But in an isometric game, I don't get it either. We are controlling the whole party. It's not like its 6 players each controlling one character and the poor mage player has to sit in the corner.

Edited by ogrezilla, 03 October 2012 - 05:48 AM.






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