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Gender Prejudice

Character Story World

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#141
Ieo

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Also: science? Sports? We live in the real all-human world; how Drow and Dwarf females are compared to Human males or those of their own species in this world has not yet been stated, and indeed if humans can use magic could there not also be other physiological differences between them and us?

I think we should stop thinking about this as real life guys, we're not making a Mount & Blade contender or DnD AmaA-- brand new iP, brand new world.


That same argument should be used in the arms and armor thread. 'Reality' seems to be applied inconsistently by people.

No boob armor or chain mail bikinis because that isn't realistic! Women not as strong as men? Who cares if that is the case in the real world. This is a game!


This seems like a reasonable point on its face.

Except that comparing a purely metagaming social implementation of armor rooted in decades-old sexist (yes, I used the word) tradition of titillation for an extremely enclosed nerdy male gamer subculture with little access to the female sex is hardly the same as an extrapolated in-game combat implementation taking into account the additional female gamer audience of this day and age (Obsidian still has to consider their current target audience). To me, that's like comparing puppies to pineapples. Also, that armour discussion is in the realm of physics.

That said, while I am personally in favor of minor 'stat' differences between male and female counterparts in the PE world (not too much, like 1 pt off STR to 1 pt in DEX or something in early BG terms), because this variable is in the realm of biology*, which has a primary initial effect on that sort of thing, Azrayel does bring up the extremely legitimate point that most everyone is talking strictly on human terms. Obsidian has the creative freedom to mix it up concerning races.

Maybe the men become pregnant in one race. Maybe they lay eggs. Maybe the female sex is actually stronger. Maybe one race does require little armour because they have hides or scales or something. Maybe the mammary glands are located somewhere unexpected ( :p).

In terms of prejudice exhibited in-game, considering the depth of culture I expect from Avellone, I expect to see the full gamut of various things among race, sex, size, coloration, whatever. It would be even better, however, if our PC can have an effect, however small, on such views if we try.

* Traditional definitions:
Sex = the biology of the organism
Gender = the social role derived from outward sex characteristics

#142
TrashMan

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Also: science? Sports? We live in the real all-human world; how Drow and Dwarf females are compared to Human males or those of their own species in this world has not yet been stated, and indeed if humans can use magic could there not also be other physiological differences between them and us?


I havn't been talking about Drow or Dwarves, now have I?

Nor have I been saying "do it like this in the game". I'm telling you how it is in real life.




Sure, if you bring out a women athlete, she will outperform me, because I don't practice anything (except sitting in the office for half a day). However, the physical potential is there. If I were to train as hard as she, I would outperofm her. then agian, I would be an athlete then.


It's not only the simple case of "training harder" though. You need to have the build (ie. genes) to be a world-class athlete. A heavily build man for example won't become the next 100m world champion no matter how hard he trains. Or a short guy with short legs won't be much of a high jumper.

You really cannot say that just because you are a man, you'd be a better athlete than ANY woman on the planet.


...
That is not what I am saying.

I was giving an example ( and I happen to have great genes, thank you very much. .. I have friends into sports and body-building who wish they had my body build. They also say it's wasted on me, which is true... )

If you want another example - Serena Williams (best female tennis player) had a match with a random guy (I think he was 200th or something). He wiped the floor with her.
Ther's other examples - footbal and basketballs male and female teams have had matches. It ended bad with female teams, every time.

***

But you know what?.. It was a mistake to get involved in this thread anyway. It's always the same thing.

#143
cuteLittleRabbit

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Can the people derailing this topic to "men are stronger than women" please start their own thread?

Thanks!
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#144
Aysir

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There's two arguments going on here and one of them has nothing to do with the game. Neither of them is answering or contributing to the OP at all. Racial and Gender stat modifiers is a different issue to character reactions changing based on those things.
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#145
DreamingVoid

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Can the people derailing this topic to "men are stronger than women" please start their own thread?

Thanks!


Was about the say the same. I think a lot of people ingored OPs post and just went in all guns blazing.

#146
draft1983

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Perhaps someone shouldn't bring ridiculous, feminist ideals into the thread then??? just maybe?? m'kay?

Edited by draft1983, 03 October 2012 - 08:32 AM.


#147
Wombat

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Can the people derailing this topic to "men are stronger than women" please start their own thread?

Thanks!

Yeah, the OP brought up with the topic of how social views to different sexes could be treated. While I agree with dealing with sexuality beyond the romance/male fantasy format would be interesting, even good intended "features" may backfire if the system steps on some kinds of players. Then again, I haven't heard any complaints about the Legion in FONV.

#148
draft1983

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However, there have been societies in which men and women have been treated more similarly. For example, in some cultures that had slavery, many female slaves had very similar upbringings, similar diets, and had to perform the same type and amount of hard labor as the men. In fact, women were expected to maintain that level of labor for the first few months of pregnancy. If you took those people and compared their physical capabilities, would you expect the same amount of difference compared to men and women in today's society?


Pretty much, yes.

Potential is there, and that doesn't change depending on social factors (which stem at least partially from it).
Again, look at the top athletes or any sport there is.


If a female PC is the top performer among woman, then the male PC is hte top performer among males, and should still physicly outperform the female PC...if you want to be realistic about it.


And you still have to keep in mind that those athletes were not raised the same way. Diet, exercise, leisure activities, etc., diverge between boys and girls very early. For example, the suggested caloric intake are different for boys and girls just one year old, when there's practically no sexual dimorphism. A one year boy is certainly not stronger than a one year old girl and yet it's suggested that one year old boys have a 5% greater caloric intake than girls. A 5 year old boy is not likely to be much stronger than a 5 year old girl and yet it's suggested that 5 year old boys have a 10% greater caloric intake than girls. That difference increases to about 15% at the beginning of puberty, up to 20% during and after that.

So while there may be a 40% difference in upper body strength and 30% difference in lower body strength between men and women in this society, would the difference be that great in a society in which men and women were raised the same?


Are you seriously bringing your own conspiracy theory into this topic?? yeah because the reason women are said to intake less calories is to make sure they stay smaller and weaker than men!! omg, male domination, through how much calories the human body consumes?? ignore the fact it's due to the motabilism, hormones and men generally have a higher body mass index and higher % of muscle. yeah its because men want women to stay weaker?? REALLY? Women that follow your rule end up FAT.

And its views like this that are the reason for men staying in power

Edited by draft1983, 03 October 2012 - 08:49 AM.

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#149
Pidesco

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It seems like this thread has run its course. Locked





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