Sargallath Abraxium Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 I remember countless times facing a tough fight, dying and reloading only to pick a new set of spells. So in other words, was that a failure of tactics or a failure to guess correctly? The IE games basically encouraged meta gaming and not cleverness if you think about it. ...no, what it did was tell ya that ya was wrong in yer tactics an' ta rethink the battle...hence roleplayin'...sorry it were not Diablows-like enuff fer ya... Uhm, I don't think your definition of role-playing holds any water. If you die in the game, and you are role-playing... you kind of have to make a new character. If you are role-playing, there's no "redo" button. What it forces you to do isn't role-playing... it forces you to rethink tactics. Perhaps even strategies. But tactics != role-playing.... unless you are meta-role-playing a gamer who is trying over and over against to win a game's combat. ..ye jus' countered yer own point in mid post...rethinkin' tactics & strategies in mid battle in hope's to win said battle cuz the tactics & strategies ya started wit' ain't workin'...part o' roleplayin'...wow; does 1+1 not = 2 in yer world??...dyin' or not, strategizin' & battlefield tactics be certainly a part o' cRPGin', ya know, computer Roleplayin' game... ...WHO LUVS YA, BABY!!... A long, long time ago, but I can still remember, How the Trolling used to make me smile. And I knew if I had my chance, I could egg on a few Trolls to "dance", And maybe we'd be happy for a while. But then Krackhead left and so did Klown; Volo and Turnip were banned, Mystake got run out o' town. Bad news on the Front Page, BIOweenia said goodbye in a heated rage. I can't remember if I cried When I heard that TORN was recently fried, But sadness touched me deep inside, The day...Black Isle died. For tarna, Visc, an' the rest o' the ol' Islanders that fell along the way Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beerflavour Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 The kickstarter hasn't yet finished. Let's best wait until that is over and Obsidian provides some more details about the conception and stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flarglebargle Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 iv played planescape,fallout1&2 and arcanum over the past month and i can understand why current rpgs are more popular for all the amazing writeing and great storytelling the combat in these games is like a brick wall Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flarglebargle Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 combat should be fun and intuitive, skill and strategy not random chance and who has more guys , plasma caster and ADV mk 1 ? well theres 12 guys and you miss every 4th shot so YOUR ****ED! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evdk Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 The kickstarter hasn't yet finished. Let's best wait until that is over and Obsidian provides some more details about the conception and stuff. Yeah. AFTER they have my money. Say no to popamole! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merin Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 Uhm, I don't think your definition of role-playing holds any water. If you die in the game, and you are role-playing... you kind of have to make a new character. If you are role-playing, there's no "redo" button. What it forces you to do isn't role-playing... it forces you to rethink tactics. Perhaps even strategies. But tactics != role-playing.... unless you are meta-role-playing a gamer who is trying over and over against to win a game's combat. ..ye jus' countered yer own point in mid post... Hmmm. My point - (1)your definition of role-playing doesn't hold any water, or that (2)dying in combat doesn't force you to role-play? "you have kind of have to make a new character. If you are role-playing, there's no "redo" button." is roughly the middle of my post. I guess we use that. Point 1: "your definition of role-playing doesn't hold any water" - You posited that having to reload and redo a battle, or, to quote you exactly, "what it did was tell ya that ya was wrong in yer tactics an' ta rethink the battle...hence roleplayin", is role-playing. That, somehow, role-playing means having sound tactics in battle. I say that role-playing means that if your character dies acting in character, he dies (role-playing means acting in character) and you have to make a new one because it isn't role-playing to "redo" a scene... the "there's no 'redo' button" part. Maybe learning tactics in combat is part of playing an RPG, especially an older-style cRPG... but tactics in combat != role-playing. Two different things. I'm fairly certain I didn't counter that point. Maybe you meant - Point 2 - "dying in combat doesn't force you to role-play" This one is just silly. "You have kind of have to make a new character. If you are role-playing, there's no "redo" button." pretty much IS my second point, the point made to reinforce the first point that your definition of role-playing... excuse me, "roleplayin" ... isn't sound. rethinkin' tactics & strategies in mid battle in hope's to win said battle cuz the tactics & strategies ya started wit' ain't workin'...part o' roleplayin'...wow; does 1+1 not = 2 in yer world??...dyin' or not, strategizin' & battlefield tactics be certainly a part o' cRPGin', ya know, computer Roleplayin' game... Ignoring the striked-out part, I think here we have that the sign that you don't actually mean "role-playing" but "playing an RPG"... which really are not the same thing. 1+1 = 2 in my world. Unfortunately for me 1 is one and it looks like for you 1 = arbitrary opinion. You ask a hundred role-players what role-playing is, you'll get dozens of different answers... but I seriously doubt you'd reach a consensus that summarizes as "tactics and strategy in combat." And on this we both agree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ogrezilla Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 (edited) The kickstarter hasn't yet finished. Let's best wait until that is over and Obsidian provides some more details about the conception and stuff. Yeah. AFTER they have my money. sorry to burst your bubble, but that's how this tends to work. How much information do you think they can possibly know before they actually know what their budget is? Edited October 2, 2012 by ogrezilla Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stun Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 (edited) ...damn...most o' these kiddies wouldna lasted a day on the Isle...gonna 'ave ta start handin' out tissues at the door... ...WHO LUVS YA, BABY!!... Bah, they would have fit in just fine. The only thing I remember from the BIS boards were the pitifully inconsequential, Rules-lawyer dramas that sprouted up every day. Stuff like: OMG! a +6 Spear!? That's against the D&D laws! TSR should sue! And of course, Karzak's holy crusade for the proper implementation of Dual-wielding rogues, and un-nerfed Grandmastery for warriors. But the stuff being debated here, on this forum, seems to be much more....encompassing. There are genre-philosophies being argued about. IMO that's far more serious than the petty stuff that ruffled our feathers at Black Isle. Edited October 2, 2012 by Stun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evdk Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 (edited) Yeah. AFTER they have my money. sorry to burst your bubble, but that's how this tends to work. How much information do you think they can possibly know before they actually know what their budget is? About basic mechanics? A lot. Edited October 2, 2012 by evdk Say no to popamole! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ogrezilla Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 Yeah. AFTER they have my money. sorry to burst your bubble, but that's how this tends to work. How much information do you think they can possibly know before they actually know what their budget is? About basic mechanics? A lot. they probably have general ideas. But I doubt they have any mechanics completely fleshed out at this point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JWestfall Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 sorry to burst your bubble, but that's how this tends to work. How much information do you think they can possibly know before they actually know what their budget is? About basic mechanics? A lot. RPG systems in game design documents are notorious for being heavily altered during the testing, tweaking and balancing phase (i.e. after a workable version of the game has been created). It may be that Obsidian can borrow quite a bit from past experience, but I still wouldn't be surprised to see major changes before the game release. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stun Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 (edited) ...name one fight in SoA/ToB where ya absolutely had ta guess correctly 'bout spells or reload...I canna name one where ya jus' hadta randomly guess an' had no way ta prepare in some way' aforehand...jus' one... ...WHO LUVS YA, BABY!!... Just one? Ok.....The Kangaxx fight. You either had to guess correctly, or else you had to come online/use the strategy guide to get the step-by-step How-to. if you didn't, you lost one party member per round, until there was no one left and it was Game Over. Edited October 2, 2012 by Stun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jasede Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 What, you don't carry around wands of monster summoning? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stun Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 (edited) Surrounding Kangaxx with Summoned Gnolls/Ogres did not prevent him from imprisoning your party members, one by one. assuming of course, your summons even managed to survive his uninterruptable Wail of the Banshee opener. Edited October 2, 2012 by Stun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoxNoctum Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 Where did they say level scaling is in? I see it mentioned in this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ogrezilla Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 Where did they say level scaling is in? I see it mentioned in this thread. they have since said it will either not be in or very very limited. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katrar Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 Kangaxx, man I haven't thought about that fight in a long, long time. That was brutal and I couldn't clear it until I had read a few strategies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
el pinko grande Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 Speaking as a fairly old-school gamer, someone who started back in the 80's with Red Box D&D, I would love to see Obsidian discard Vancian magic and never ever look back. I'm not specifically a fan of cool-downs or anything, but I'm an aggrressive hater of Vancian magic. To be fair, though, I'd also probably do away with classes and levels if I were running the project, so I doubt my tastes would be to everyone's liking. Regardless, I do not want a game that is a clone of Baldur's Gate in terms of gameplay. I want a game inspired by IE, but I also want the model to evolve. There seems to be this assumption that any deviation from the old model is a concession to the idiot masses of Xbox-wielding frat boys. I don't think that's true. The IE games weren't perfect. They did some stuff better than modern games, and some stuff worse. And modern games aren't all bad. If Obsidian want to steal something from an Elder Scrolls game or a Bioware game, I don't think P:E will necessarily be worse for it. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sargallath Abraxium Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 Uhm, I don't think your definition of role-playing holds any water. If you die in the game, and you are role-playing... you kind of have to make a new character. If you are role-playing, there's no "redo" button. What it forces you to do isn't role-playing... it forces you to rethink tactics. Perhaps even strategies. But tactics != role-playing.... unless you are meta-role-playing a gamer who is trying over and over against to win a game's combat. ..ye jus' countered yer own point in mid post... Hmmm. My point - (1)your definition of role-playing doesn't hold any water, or that (2)dying in combat doesn't force you to role-play? "you have kind of have to make a new character. If you are role-playing, there's no "redo" button." is roughly the middle of my post. I guess we use that. Point 1: "your definition of role-playing doesn't hold any water" - You posited that having to reload and redo a battle, or, to quote you exactly, "what it did was tell ya that ya was wrong in yer tactics an' ta rethink the battle...hence roleplayin", is role-playing. That, somehow, role-playing means having sound tactics in battle. I say that role-playing means that if your character dies acting in character, he dies (role-playing means acting in character) and you have to make a new one because it isn't role-playing to "redo" a scene... the "there's no 'redo' button" part. Maybe learning tactics in combat is part of playing an RPG, especially an older-style cRPG... but tactics in combat != role-playing. Two different things. I'm fairly certain I didn't counter that point. Maybe you meant - Point 2 - "dying in combat doesn't force you to role-play" This one is just silly. "You have kind of have to make a new character. If you are role-playing, there's no "redo" button." pretty much IS my second point, the point made to reinforce the first point that your definition of role-playing... excuse me, "roleplayin" ... isn't sound. rethinkin' tactics & strategies in mid battle in hope's to win said battle cuz the tactics & strategies ya started wit' ain't workin'...part o' roleplayin'...wow; does 1+1 not = 2 in yer world??...dyin' or not, strategizin' & battlefield tactics be certainly a part o' cRPGin', ya know, computer Roleplayin' game... Ignoring the striked-out part, I think here we have that the sign that you don't actually mean "role-playing" but "playing an RPG"... which really are not the same thing. 1+1 = 2 in my world. Unfortunately for me 1 is one and it looks like for you 1 = arbitrary opinion. You ask a hundred role-players what role-playing is, you'll get dozens of different answers... but I seriously doubt you'd reach a consensus that summarizes as "tactics and strategy in combat." And on this we both agree. ...yer loose in the head, lad...ne'er once did I say that roleplaying was strategy & tactics, I's said that sound tactics & strategy was part o' roleplayin' yer character...quit creatin' straw man where none was...an' e'en if'n they dies, can still roleplay same character in same battle...yer roleplayin'...nuthin' has ta stop ya roleplayin' yer character; that be why it be called roleplayin' an' not called bein'...no "arbitrary" opinion; be fact...only thing that can stop ya from roleplayin' yer character be a conscious decision on yer own part...if'n you canna do it, that be a limitation on yer part... ...WHO LUVS YA, BABY!!... A long, long time ago, but I can still remember, How the Trolling used to make me smile. And I knew if I had my chance, I could egg on a few Trolls to "dance", And maybe we'd be happy for a while. But then Krackhead left and so did Klown; Volo and Turnip were banned, Mystake got run out o' town. Bad news on the Front Page, BIOweenia said goodbye in a heated rage. I can't remember if I cried When I heard that TORN was recently fried, But sadness touched me deep inside, The day...Black Isle died. For tarna, Visc, an' the rest o' the ol' Islanders that fell along the way Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sargallath Abraxium Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 ...name one fight in SoA/ToB where ya absolutely had ta guess correctly 'bout spells or reload...I canna name one where ya jus' hadta randomly guess an' had no way ta prepare in some way' aforehand...jus' one... ...WHO LUVS YA, BABY!!... Just one? Ok.....The Kangaxx fight. You either had to guess correctly, or else you had to come online/use the strategy guide to get the step-by-step How-to. if you didn't, you lost one party member per round, until there was no one left and it was Game Over. ...I ne'er lost one party member anytime I's e'er fought Kangaxx...Spell Immunity - Abjuration (Imprisonment be neutralized) was an automatic against Liches, so no worries (imagined, prepared ahead o' time wit'out cheatin')...me mage cast it on theysselves an' stood closest ta 'im, so he'd keep castin' Imprisonment on them an' fail...no guessin' involved... ...WHO LUVS YA, BABY!!... A long, long time ago, but I can still remember, How the Trolling used to make me smile. And I knew if I had my chance, I could egg on a few Trolls to "dance", And maybe we'd be happy for a while. But then Krackhead left and so did Klown; Volo and Turnip were banned, Mystake got run out o' town. Bad news on the Front Page, BIOweenia said goodbye in a heated rage. I can't remember if I cried When I heard that TORN was recently fried, But sadness touched me deep inside, The day...Black Isle died. For tarna, Visc, an' the rest o' the ol' Islanders that fell along the way Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stun Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 (edited) ...name one fight in SoA/ToB where ya absolutely had ta guess correctly 'bout spells or reload...I canna name one where ya jus' hadta randomly guess an' had no way ta prepare in some way' aforehand...jus' one... ...WHO LUVS YA, BABY!!... Just one? Ok.....The Kangaxx fight. You either had to guess correctly, or else you had to come online/use the strategy guide to get the step-by-step How-to. if you didn't, you lost one party member per round, until there was no one left and it was Game Over. ...I ne'er lost one party member anytime I's e'er fought Kangaxx...Spell Immunity - Abjuration (Imprisonment be neutralized) was an automatic against Liches, so no worries (imagined, prepared ahead o' time wit'out cheatin')...me mage cast it on theysselves an' stood closest ta 'im, so he'd keep castin' Imprisonment on them an' fail...no guessin' involved... ...WHO LUVS YA, BABY!!... <sigh> Sure, man. The first time you discovered Kangaxx, you (of course) had not known about the encounter before via message board or strategy-guid how-to's but you still miraculously managed to forsee: 1) that it would be a double battle where you were required to prepare Spell immunity twice (since the automatic-dispell magic kicked in immediately upon his transformation from Lich to Demi-lich 2) That the rest of your party would be in danger of Imprisonment, and therefore you instinctively had them wait by the door while your mage took him on alone 3) That you'd need a +4 weapon or equivalent to actually kill him (you just coincidently got the staff of the magi before taking him on. Good Guessing!) Yeah. Honesty.... who needs it, baby! Edited October 2, 2012 by Stun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sargallath Abraxium Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 ...name one fight in SoA/ToB where ya absolutely had ta guess correctly 'bout spells or reload...I canna name one where ya jus' hadta randomly guess an' had no way ta prepare in some way' aforehand...jus' one... ...WHO LUVS YA, BABY!!... Just one? Ok.....The Kangaxx fight. You either had to guess correctly, or else you had to come online/use the strategy guide to get the step-by-step How-to. if you didn't, you lost one party member per round, until there was no one left and it was Game Over. ...I ne'er lost one party member anytime I's e'er fought Kangaxx...Spell Immunity - Abjuration (Imprisonment be neutralized) was an automatic against Liches, so no worries (imagined, prepared ahead o' time wit'out cheatin')...me mage cast it on theysselves an' stood closest ta 'im, so he'd keep castin' Imprisonment on them an' fail...no guessin' involved... ...WHO LUVS YA, BABY!!... <sigh> Sure, man. The first time you discovered Kangaxx, you (of course) had not known about the encounter before via message board or strategy-guid how-to's but you still miraculously managed to forsee: 1) that it would be a double battle where you were required to prepare Spell immunity twice (since the automatic-dispell magic kicked in immediately upon his transformation from Lich to Demi-lich 2) That the rest of your party would be in danger of Imprisonment, and therefore you instinctively had them wait by the door while your mage took him on alone 3) That you'd need a +5 weapon of equivalent to actually kill him (assuming of course that you didn't use up all your Melf meteors against his lich form. Yeah. Honesty.... who needs it, baby! ...ummm, yea, Lich battles happen, so had a couple o' Spell Immunity - Abjuration ready...funny how knowin' that Kangaxx would target closest party member (go figure) got me ta 'ave me mage (an' a few summoned monsters) closest...an Sunray (cleric) works wonders, as it does against undead...why be it hard ta believe that bein' prepared doesna 'ave ta mean cheatin'??...payin' attention works... ...WHO LUVS YA, BABY!!... A long, long time ago, but I can still remember, How the Trolling used to make me smile. And I knew if I had my chance, I could egg on a few Trolls to "dance", And maybe we'd be happy for a while. But then Krackhead left and so did Klown; Volo and Turnip were banned, Mystake got run out o' town. Bad news on the Front Page, BIOweenia said goodbye in a heated rage. I can't remember if I cried When I heard that TORN was recently fried, But sadness touched me deep inside, The day...Black Isle died. For tarna, Visc, an' the rest o' the ol' Islanders that fell along the way Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GammaHamster Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 ...name one fight in SoA/ToB where ya absolutely had ta guess correctly 'bout spells or reload...I canna name one where ya jus' hadta randomly guess an' had no way ta prepare in some way' aforehand...jus' one... ...WHO LUVS YA, BABY!!... Just one? Ok.....The Kangaxx fight. You either had to guess correctly, or else you had to come online/use the strategy guide to get the step-by-step How-to. if you didn't, you lost one party member per round, until there was no one left and it was Game Over. I still don't get why is this bad and should be fixed. Kangaxx fight was awesome. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stun Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 (edited) ...name one fight in SoA/ToB where ya absolutely had ta guess correctly 'bout spells or reload...I canna name one where ya jus' hadta randomly guess an' had no way ta prepare in some way' aforehand...jus' one... ...WHO LUVS YA, BABY!!... Just one? Ok.....The Kangaxx fight. You either had to guess correctly, or else you had to come online/use the strategy guide to get the step-by-step How-to. if you didn't, you lost one party member per round, until there was no one left and it was Game Over. I still don't get why is this bad and should be fixed. Kangaxx fight was awesome. It's not bad. it's Awesome. But lets not pretend that "smart" players could just correctly guess, the first time out, on how successfully take him on. Our Dwarven-dialected friend, above, is kinda pulling our collective legs,. here. (which is fine. We're all prideful, hard core Ego-gods, here) But lets tell it like it is: It takes either ESP, or a strategy guide, or a reload, or hint-gathering from message boards, to go into that fight blind, and emerge victorious the very first time out. Too many tools required. Too many variables involved. And PS: Kangaxx the demilich is immune to level 9 or lower spells, so NO, Sargallath, your Sunray had NO EFFECT on him. But I do wonder how you managed to protect your cleric from imprisonment while she cast Sunray. Hindsight says you used a protection from Undead scroll, but how did you know to bring one on your first time through....and to use it AFTER the transformation instead of before..... that's my question. However, for me at least, all it took was a single reload. Edited October 2, 2012 by Stun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
el pinko grande Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 ...name one fight in SoA/ToB where ya absolutely had ta guess correctly 'bout spells or reload...I canna name one where ya jus' hadta randomly guess an' had no way ta prepare in some way' aforehand...jus' one... ...WHO LUVS YA, BABY!!... Just one? Ok.....The Kangaxx fight. You either had to guess correctly, or else you had to come online/use the strategy guide to get the step-by-step How-to. if you didn't, you lost one party member per round, until there was no one left and it was Game Over. I still don't get why is this bad and should be fixed. Kangaxx fight was awesome. Personally, I find it immersion-breaking if you can't improvise your way through a fight. If you need to do a fight a dozen times to learn exactly what an enemy is going to do, how would the characters realistically ever survive that encounter? I realize that's not a concern for everyone, but it annoys the hell out of me in games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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