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[Merged] Cooldown Thread

cooldowns vancian mana exhaustion resting magic improvements discussion spells cooldown

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#521
Shevek

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Its a cooldown system that is not a cooldown system.

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#522
el pinko grande

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I've been playing D&D for 25 years. I also hate Vancian magic.

25 years but you never played a spellcaster. kind of narrow minded don't you think ? how do you know you hate it if you never tried it. I hear the first time is painful but then it gets better...gotta' pop that cherry eventually.


Who says I never played a spellcaster? Hell, my second character when I was playing Red Box as a kid was an elf. My dislike of the Vancian system specifically comes from my experience of having used it with my characters.

#523
J.E. Sawyer

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The obvious question should be: why even a cool down? Make the regeneration instantaneous!

Locking out access to an entire level of spells once you have exhausted the castings you have available to you at a given level (as a 3E sorcerer would) means that you have to use spells from your other spell levels. This creates a tactical challenge during combat, especially for spells at levels where you do not have many castings available (i.e. typically your highest). Allowing them to regenerate literally instantly means that there is not a tactical consideration; you should just use the most powerful spell for the situation over and over again for the duration of combat.

There is a very popular example of this model named Call of Duty 4: Modern Warfare 2. They make it even less tedious! The health (sadly only meaningful resource in that game unlike RPGs) regenerates instantly. Why not do that with project eternity as well? I mean that is the least amount of tedium right?

The feeling of challenge is a balance between enjoyment and frustration. It is not the same for every player, but it is almost always at some midpoint between those two emotions. My goal is to use a variety of mechanics to find balance points that appeal to this specific audience, varied as it is. I think that instant health regeneration errs too much on the side of ease for this audience.

Edited by J.E. Sawyer, 02 October 2012 - 03:17 PM.
typo in "too"

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#524
BobbinThreadbare

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Shouldn't getting into a fight have an effect on the next fight?

How big of a jump is it from "having to walk 3 minutes through empty rooms to rest is boring and annoying" to CoD style hide behind a wall for 5 seconds to regen health?

It's a big enough jump that the question isn't rhetorical.

Thanks for the response. It is really cool to get to talk to the devs like this.
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#525
Blackstream

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Personally, I hate the Vancian magic system with a flaming passion. There's absolutely nothing about I like. I think we've also settled that it's not going to happen at this point and that the devs are looking for a system to fix its shortcomings. My first instinct would be some kind of mana system, maybe with d3 style cooldowns where some of the more uber abilities have cooldowns. But they've clearly got a concept in mind. Honestly I think if they had realized that just saying the word cooldown would provoke this response, they probably would have avoided it until further down in development when they had a more concrete example/system to show you guys, because clearly right now it's more of an idea, an idea that's in flux and they can't really give examples of until they do some design, playtesting, and iterations.

Personally though, I pledged so that the developers could do exactly what I hope they'll continue to do, finally make the game they want to make. I'll make suggestions and such, but ultimately I want to see what they make when they're unfettered by publishers and people making demands on their creative processes. Maybe this system or others won't do as well, but they shouldn't be pushed out of taking a chance at an idea they've got before we even have a chance to see it. I mean, there's a LONG time until this game comes out, and they're gonna be fairly transparent the whole way. We're gonna see gameplay videos and plenty of dev talks, and there's even gonna be a beta in there somewhere (which I plan on upgrading my pledge to get access to). There's time for them to realize some of their systems are flawed if that is indeed the case. And personally, I want to see what they do with cooldowns (even though I've always been on the fence about them), because they clearly have a unique idea beyond attaching a 2 second cooldown to magic missile and a 10 second cooldown to fireball, and a 2 hour cooldown to meteor swarm.
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#526
metiman

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Josh has decided to cleverly sidestep me or he has missed my post.

I think the reason there is a failure to convince him that Cooldowns are not good for tactical gameplay is coming from the need to so in one post or with one example or with a few lines of text.

I must have missed your post. A large number of the people in this thread are talking about a type of spell cooldown I've never suggested for PE (cast a Fireball, unable to cast Fireball again for 30 seconds).


You also never ruled it out and made a point of not doing so. I don't think it is unfair for some of us to assume that was for a good reason. I admit that that is precisely the mechanism that concerned me. A reassurance that that was not what you had in mind would have entirely renewed my enthusiasm for the game. As for the cooldown-as-rest mechanism it is a very interesting conundrum. I am tempted to believe that there is a certain amount of pain that must be endured as the price of the enjoyment aspect, but I would really have to actually try a specific example of such a system to be sure. If there isn't one available that is considered appropriate I would have to wonder why. Surely it's not for a lack of trying to streamline cRPG systems. That seems like all the mega-developers ever do.
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#527
Jaesun

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I think our main concern is will the new combat system remain as tactical as it was like the IE games? Having to conserve spells. Knowing when to use spells and where. As well as using specific spells on some enemies. etc...

I think you have pretty much alleviated the fears of the horrible WOW type of cool-down system, will not be in PE.

Are there room for improvements/complete changes with how the old IE combat system works? Hell yes.

We can only hope you will work on something that is tactical and challenging to the player, and is somewhat reminiscent of the IE games. Not a carefully designed player friendly no thinking required walk-through of the game.
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#528
Captain Shrek

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The obvious question should be: why even a cool down? Make the regeneration instantaneous!

Locking out access to an entire level of spells once you have exhausted the castings you have available to you at a given level (as a 3E sorcerer would) means that you have to use spells from your other spell levels. This creates a tactical challenge during combat, especially for spells at levels where you do not have many castings available (i.e. typically your highest). Allowing them to regenerate literally instantly means that there is not a tactical consideration; you should just use the most powerful spell for the situation over and over again for the duration of combat.

There is a very popular example of this model named Call of Duty 4: Modern Warfare 2. They make it even less tedious! The health (sadly only meaningful resource in that game unlike RPGs) regenerates instantly. Why not do that with project eternity as well? I mean that is the least amount of tedium right?

The feeling of challenge is a balance between enjoyment and frustration. It is not the same for every player, but it is almost always at some midpoint between those two emotions. My goal is to use a variety of mechanics to find balance points that appeal to this specific audience, varied as it is. I think that instant health regeneration errs to much on the side of ease for this audience.


Not really Josh. You are probably too busy to get this question correctly. Sorry to intrude on your busy schedule like this. But your reply has little do with what I said.

I haven't yet said a single word about the difficulty or tactics WITHIN the combat. All I am asking is why this artificial Cooldown time? Why not instantaneous regeneration POST combat?

Edited by Captain Shrek, 02 October 2012 - 03:21 PM.


#529
Shevek

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They could just do levelled action points. So, you prepare X amount of spells at each level, you get a set number of castings per spell level, they regenerate at different rates (much slower the higher you go) during combat. Once combat is done, all spells action points regen instantly. This gives you similar spell variety of a wizard, casting mechanics of a sorceror and the lack of a need to rest.

I would still make it so you had to rest (and thus end all buffs and summons) when you try to swap spells.

Edit: not advocating this, just fishing around for where they are heading.

Edited by Shevek, 02 October 2012 - 03:23 PM.


#530
metiman

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The obvious question should be: why even a cool down? Make the regeneration instantaneous!

Locking out access to an entire level of spells once you have exhausted the castings you have available to you at a given level (as a 3E sorcerer would) means that you have to use spells from your other spell levels. This creates a tactical challenge during combat, especially for spells at levels where you do not have many castings available (i.e. typically your highest). Allowing them to regenerate literally instantly means that there is not a tactical consideration; you should just use the most powerful spell for the situation over and over again for the duration of combat.

There is a very popular example of this model named Call of Duty 4: Modern Warfare 2. They make it even less tedious! The health (sadly only meaningful resource in that game unlike RPGs) regenerates instantly. Why not do that with project eternity as well? I mean that is the least amount of tedium right?

The feeling of challenge is a balance between enjoyment and frustration. It is not the same for every player, but it is almost always at some midpoint between those two emotions. My goal is to use a variety of mechanics to find balance points that appeal to this specific audience, varied as it is. I think that instant health regeneration errs to much on the side of ease for this audience.


Not really Josh. You are probably too busy to get this question correctly. Sorry to intrude on your busy schedule like this. But your reply has little do with what I said.

I haven't yet said a single word about the difficulty or tactics WITHIN the combat. All I am asking is why this artificial Cooldown time? Why not instantaneous regeneration POST combat?


I assume this was a form of logical reductio ad absurdum and not what you would actually like to see in the game?

#531
ogrezilla

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They could just do levelled action points. So, you prepare X amount of spells at each level, you get a set number of castings per spell level, they regenerate at different rates (much slower the higher you go) during combat. Once combat is done, all spells action points regen instantly. This gives you similar spell variety of a wizard, casting mechanics of a sorceror and the lack of a need to rest.

I would still make it so you had to rest (and thus end all buffs and summons) when you try to swap spells.

Edit: not advocating this, just fishing around for where they are heading.

the only way that works is if every fight is hard enough to be a significant threat.

#532
Shevek

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I agree. Attrition style dungeon design (which I love) does not work well if everything regens after every fight.
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#533
Sargallath Abraxium

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Why not instantaneous regeneration POST combat?



...why not jus' play a superhero, in that case...or a God... :banghead:


...WHO LUVS YA, BABY!!...

#534
GordonHalfman

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If we want the game to have varied and interesting and powerful spells, then there has to be a way to limit them, between encounters as well as within them. We can't have the player summoning a demon and stopping time in every fight.

I have an open mind on there being better ways to limit spell casting than D&D, it definitely has it's problems. (The main one in my view being that the player is ridiculously powerful when fully stocked.)

But there is a logical problem here. If casting a spell in one fight means the player doesn't get to cast it in subsequent fights (for whatever reason), then the decision to cast the spell has to be based on a prediction about what future fights will be like, which he is often unable to know without meta-gaming. This is something Josh seems to find unacceptable.

So... what now?

#535
metiman

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So is there a consensus as to his basic question? Might there be any value to streamlining the traditional leave-dungeon-to-rest-mechanic? I'm thinking that it may be too risky to find out. We know that the old system is highly enjoyable for the target audience. Otherwise we wouldn't be here. Can it be improved? Maybe, but how to be sure? Beta testing? Maybe, but it may not be comprehensive enough. If it's that important to consider then why not make the choice an optional one? Is that not an easy solution?

#536
evdk

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Why not instantaneous regeneration POST combat?



...why not jus' play a superhero, in that case...or a God... :banghead:


...WHO LUVS YA, BABY!!...

You do understand he does not actually advocate that, right? He's just professing his dislike for the countdowns by reducing them to their most stupid incarnation and using that as an argument against their inclusion in the game. The CoD reference is a dead giveaway.

#537
J.E. Sawyer

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Not really Josh. You are probably too busy to get this question correctly. Sorry to intrude on your busy schedule like this.

I don't believe you are sincere.

All I am asking is why this artificial Cooldown time? Why not instantaneous regeneration POST combat?

The amount of time that a spell level lockout should last isn't something for which I have a solid answer. It could work in a manner similar to 4E where the end of an "encounter" resets the lockout on the majority of abilities, but "combat" states in engines is something that, in my experience, is often triggered on/off in weird ways. If a lockout lasts for something like 30 seconds or 45 seconds, that lockout will likely last longer than the remainder of the combat, but not so long that the player would have a compelling incentive to "spam stand", which I agree is bad. Whether the answer is a timed lockout or a combat state-released lockout, I'm not sure.

I think health and hit points can be handled differently because the player always has a high incentive to avoid as much damage as possible for all of their characters. I.e. conserving health is (almost) always in the player's best interest, but conserving spells may not be.

#538
Captain Shrek

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Not really Josh. You are probably too busy to get this question correctly. Sorry to intrude on your busy schedule like this.

I don't believe you are sincere.


I am most sincere Josh. Honest!

All I am asking is why this artificial Cooldown time? Why not instantaneous regeneration POST combat?

The amount of time that a spell level lockout should last isn't something for which I have a solid answer. It could work in a manner similar to 4E where the end of an "encounter" resets the lockout on the majority of abilities, but "combat" states in engines is something that, in my experience, is often triggered on/off in weird ways. If a lockout lasts for something like 30 seconds or 45 seconds, that lockout will likely last longer than the remainder of the combat, but not so long that the player would have a compelling incentive to "spam stand", which I agree is bad. Whether the answer is a timed lockout or a combat state-released lockout, I'm not sure.

I think health and hit points can be handled differently because the player always has a high incentive to avoid as much damage as possible for all of their characters. I.e. conserving health is (almost) always in the player's best interest, but conserving spells may not be.


That automatically begs the question Josh, that does the party have a heal spell, no? Because as I see it resetting all your spells post combat => heal heal heal.

EDIT: And that's just the first of many I can think of to be honest.

Edited by Captain Shrek, 02 October 2012 - 03:35 PM.


#539
Shevek

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If a player doesn't have to conserve spells, doesn't that give them instant heals and thereby trivialize the conserving of health?

#540
metiman

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I think he probably is sincere actually. You have to remember that you are the lead developer on this project. We would never normally expect to be talking to you at all. It should go without saying that we are honored and all that. And yes I'm being sincere.





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