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[Merged] Cooldown Thread

cooldowns vancian mana exhaustion resting magic improvements discussion spells cooldown

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#21
Jaesun

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There is NO tactical or unexpected encounters at all with cooldowns. THAT is what the IE games embodied.
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#22
ogrezilla

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Where memorization systems (such as Vancian Magic) fail in video games is in it's regeneration.

i.e rest spamming.

If cooldowns address that issue, while still being tied to memorization and limits, then it's not so bad.

You could link the mechanic to the state of your soul and current environment. The weaker you are, the slower it regenerates. While if you're in good heath, it regenerates more quickly. Being in a forest helps nature magic regenerate quicker. Weaker spells regenerate quickest was while the strongest ones would regenerate 1 use every hour or so. That would help emulate what resting did through cooldowns.

OTOH, if we're talking about cooldowns as the primary mechanic, then that's awful. What cooldowns do is eliminate the strategic element of preparation as far as spells (and abilities) are concerned. That's where memorization types excelled. It rewarded strategic thinking as well as tactical, by choosing which spells to take and when to use them. Even if that meant you were ill-prepared. Scraping together a win in circumstances where you're unprepared is fun.

Cooldowns however, shifts more focus from strategic to "tactical". The problem with this is that the tactical dimension they add here is that of micromanagement. Whether it be spells, abilities or potion spam.

In cases where cooldowns are arbitrary timers, it struggles to fun in an RTwP environment because your entire mindset is based not on tactical or strategic considerations, but based entirely on when the cooldowns for your spells/abilities/potions are up.

i.e MMOs.

The idea of the vancian system is to combine strategic spell choice and spell conservation to require smart use of magic. As a system, its great. But the old games were not built around it well at all.

The strategic part almost always boiled down to you knowing the encounters beforehand or else just taking your most general "best" spells. But usually you would only know what to expect because you've seen the encounter before either in a past playthrough or 30 seconds ago when you died and re-loaded. The game needs to do a good job of giving you hints about what you will be facing to make it a real strategic decision. Once you have seen the enemy it typically becomes painfully obvious what the best spells would have been.

The conservation part was just non-existent thanks to the terrible rest system. It just wasn't an issue at all.

a combination of vancian and cooldowns where you still choose your spells like Vancian magic but cooldowns are used as a replacement for resting sounds awesome to me. But the game still needs to be very well designed to actually allow the strategic part of the system to be utilized.
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#23
nikolokolus

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I think this is the best argument I've read against Vancian magic ... and it comes straight from JE Sawyer
http://www.formsprin...730408441642308

Melnorme
I suspect that PE will end up NOT using the Vancian magic system. But I do feel that the role of the spellbook as a custom-made "toolkit" that needs to be prepared ahead of time is integral to the IE spirit. Can this be achieved in a non-Vancian system?

JESawyer
I think it can, but I also think we need to be cognizant that advance preparation does not always equal strategic gameplay. If the player is making choices "blind" (for lack of a better term) and those choices have a huge effect on efficacy, that's not really a strategic blunder as much as a bad guess. I think some of the spell prep requirements in BG2 fell into that category, where the player's only approach was to enter combat, see how he or she failed, and reload the game with a different set of spells memorized.

In difficult battles, reloading is not uncommon, but I think it usually feels better when the player's error is a tactical one rather than a "strategic" one -- strategic being in quotes because there's no way for the player to know what's coming outside of metagaming.


I was mostly leaning toward wanting a Vancian system in the game, but after reading this, I think I might have just had my mind changed.
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#24
Hiro Protagonist II

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So with a cool down, I have an infinite number of fireball spells. I just need to wait for the cool down to reset. With the vancian system, I have a limited amount of fireballs I can memorise. In the IE Games, there was a delay (essentially a cool down) between spamming fireballs.

Unless the cool down is quite long, I don't really see any difference other than I have an infinite amount of fireballs now instead of a limited amount of fireballs. After a battle, you will just sit there and let your cool downs reset which seems a waste of time. Sleeping in the IE games just made it faster to get your spells back.

Go down to the next level of the dungeon? Nope, I'll just sit here for a couple of minutes for my cool downs to reset. Atleast in the IE games, if you took the chance of sleeping, you might be attacked.
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#25
ogrezilla

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I think this is the best argument I've read against Vancian magic ... and it comes straight from JE Sawyer
http://www.formsprin...730408441642308


Melnorme
I suspect that PE will end up NOT using the Vancian magic system. But I do feel that the role of the spellbook as a custom-made "toolkit" that needs to be prepared ahead of time is integral to the IE spirit. Can this be achieved in a non-Vancian system?

JESawyer
I think it can, but I also think we need to be cognizant that advance preparation does not always equal strategic gameplay. If the player is making choices "blind" (for lack of a better term) and those choices have a huge effect on efficacy, that's not really a strategic blunder as much as a bad guess. I think some of the spell prep requirements in BG2 fell into that category, where the player's only approach was to enter combat, see how he or she failed, and reload the game with a different set of spells memorized.

In difficult battles, reloading is not uncommon, but I think it usually feels better when the player's error is a tactical one rather than a "strategic" one -- strategic being in quotes because there's no way for the player to know what's coming outside of metagaming.


I was mostly leaning toward wanting a Vancian system in the game, but after reading this, I think I might have just had my mind changed.

ya unless the game itself can lead you to picking the spells before the encounter with some real strategy the vancian system really just isn't very good for a video game. I know in IWD there are townsfolk who warn you about serpents that petrify you so I chose my cleric's spells accordingly. Even that really isn't my own strategy; it was the game hitting me over the head with a remove petrification scroll.

#26
Ieo

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Hmmm. I'll give it a shot.

Full tier cooldowns with ascending timers by power level, with spells per tier learned by choice? Let's say we have a full collection of diverse spells a la D&D (rather than the level-upgraded spells which limit diversity, which I think is the only magic system I'm bleh about). A natural effect for this idea is that 'persistent' spells couldn't last more than the duration of the CD (something like Hold would have to be much shorter, but maybe that could be changed with difficulty settings).

So casting any spell of a given tier puts the entire tier of spells on CD.

T1 = 30 second CD
Armour, Charm, Magic Missile, Burning Hands, Identify

T2 = 50 second CD
Blur, Horror, Knock, Acid Arrow, Stinking Cloud, Mirror Image

T3 = 70 second CD
Dispel, Fireball, Hold, Lightning Bolt, Haste, Slow

T4 = 90 second CD
Confusion, Farsight, Ice Storm, Polymorph, Remove Curse, Stoneskin


Maybe soul can increase the number of spells you can learn per tier. Or lower cooldowns (nah, I don't think I'm in favor of that). Soul could also serve as a defense, sort of like a resist or saving throw (lowering the 'persist' state to be shorter than the expected tier CD).

The trick for limitation here is high diversity of spells--you must choose among offensive/defensive/utility spells in any given encounter. Or something.

Edit: Oh, and mana. Tying mana to each spell tier should be easy, and perhaps soul can effect the amount of mana you have as well.

Edited by Ieo, 01 October 2012 - 08:47 PM.


#27
ogrezilla

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So with a cool down, I have an infinite number of fireball spells. I just need to wait for the cool down to reset. With the vancian system, I have a limited amount of fireballs I can memorise. In the IE Games, there was a delay (essentially a cool down) between spamming fireballs.

Unless the cool down is quite long, I don't really see any difference other than I have an infinite amount of fireballs now instead of a limited amount of fireballs. After a battle, you will just sit there and let your cool downs reset which seems a waste of time. Sleeping in the IE games just made it faster to get your spells back.

Go down to the next level of the dungeon? Nope, I'll just sit here for a couple of minutes for my cool downs to reset. Atleast in the IE games, if you took the chance of sleeping, you might be attacked.

ya that's something I hope they figure out how to avoid. Standing-Still spamming would be much worse than rest spamming

#28
Hypevosa

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I think this is the best argument I've read against Vancian magic ... and it comes straight from JE Sawyer
http://www.formsprin...730408441642308


Melnorme
I suspect that PE will end up NOT using the Vancian magic system. But I do feel that the role of the spellbook as a custom-made "toolkit" that needs to be prepared ahead of time is integral to the IE spirit. Can this be achieved in a non-Vancian system?

JESawyer
I think it can, but I also think we need to be cognizant that advance preparation does not always equal strategic gameplay. If the player is making choices "blind" (for lack of a better term) and those choices have a huge effect on efficacy, that's not really a strategic blunder as much as a bad guess. I think some of the spell prep requirements in BG2 fell into that category, where the player's only approach was to enter combat, see how he or she failed, and reload the game with a different set of spells memorized.

In difficult battles, reloading is not uncommon, but I think it usually feels better when the player's error is a tactical one rather than a "strategic" one -- strategic being in quotes because there's no way for the player to know what's coming outside of metagaming.


I was mostly leaning toward wanting a Vancian system in the game, but after reading this, I think I might have just had my mind changed.


Why not give the player ingame knowledge of what to prepare for? An encounter with a lich written in an adventurer's diary detailing the spells it used on his fellow adventurers before horribly wounding him and allowing him to wander the cave till his minions ate him alive. A rumor overheard after some mead of spell caster X who specializes in illusions. Finding a mage's spellbook in his room long before you actually face him. Etc.

There should be ways of finding out info before battles.
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#29
Gurkog

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In Torchlight 2 some cooldowns become better if used when 'charge' meters are full. The charge meters fill up as most attacks are used. So, a player could use the cooldowns at the start of a fight with no charge, but be drasticly less effective (unless the player just came from a fight and their bar is full). They could try to use skills that maximize charge generation so that the cooldowns are more effective. Finally, they could use skills that don't build much charge and just use the cooldowns whenever.

That could be an effective way to manage cooldowns so they are not binary, mindless skills. They add extra layers of tactics for the player to utilize in different ways. There are probably many other methods of integrating cooldowns with other activities to add synergies.

Edited by Gurkog, 01 October 2012 - 08:34 PM.


#30
ogrezilla

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I think this is the best argument I've read against Vancian magic ... and it comes straight from JE Sawyer
http://www.formsprin...730408441642308


Melnorme
I suspect that PE will end up NOT using the Vancian magic system. But I do feel that the role of the spellbook as a custom-made "toolkit" that needs to be prepared ahead of time is integral to the IE spirit. Can this be achieved in a non-Vancian system?

JESawyer
I think it can, but I also think we need to be cognizant that advance preparation does not always equal strategic gameplay. If the player is making choices "blind" (for lack of a better term) and those choices have a huge effect on efficacy, that's not really a strategic blunder as much as a bad guess. I think some of the spell prep requirements in BG2 fell into that category, where the player's only approach was to enter combat, see how he or she failed, and reload the game with a different set of spells memorized.

In difficult battles, reloading is not uncommon, but I think it usually feels better when the player's error is a tactical one rather than a "strategic" one -- strategic being in quotes because there's no way for the player to know what's coming outside of metagaming.


I was mostly leaning toward wanting a Vancian system in the game, but after reading this, I think I might have just had my mind changed.


Why not give the player ingame knowledge of what to prepare for? An encounter with a lich written in an adventurer's diary detailing the spells it used on his fellow adventurers before horribly wounding him and allowing him to wander the cave till his minions ate him alive. A rumor overheard after some mead of spell caster X who specializes in illusions. Finding a mage's spellbook in his room long before you actually face him. Etc.

There should be ways of finding out info before battles.

that definitely can work, but it really takes away the feeling of intelligence for figuring out a fight. Typically when something like that is included it feels like the game just beats you over the head with the answer and the fight ends up lacking any excitement because you already know what to expect. If it can be done well, I would definitely like to see this implemented instead of just removing that aspect of choosing spells.

Edited by ogrezilla, 01 October 2012 - 08:37 PM.


#31
Hiro Protagonist II

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ya that's something I hope they figure out how to avoid. Standing-Still spamming would be much worse than rest spamming


Standing-Still spamming is going to make the game worse. This mega-dungeon they're planning means that after you complete one level, you will just Stand-Still spam on every level and never run out of spells, before going down to the next level.

In the IE games, the only way to get the spells back is take the chance of sleeping in the dungeon and possibly get attacked.

#32
ogrezilla

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ya that's something I hope they figure out how to avoid. Standing-Still spamming would be much worse than rest spamming


Standing-Still spamming is going to make the game worse. This mega-dungeon they're planning means that after you complete one level, you will just Stand-Still spam on every level and never run out of spells, before going down to the next level.

In the IE games, the only way to get the spells back is take the chance of sleeping in the dungeon and possibly get attacked.

ya I agree. I'm not sure what the best answer is, but I would have to think the people designing this would be smart enough to see that issue: it is pretty glaring.

Edited by ogrezilla, 01 October 2012 - 08:39 PM.


#33
Shevek

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There are many problems with cooldowns.

Here is one. In the Vancian system, you may have several of a particular spell prepared because you want to cast it several times in fairly rapid succession (perhaps through spell sequencer use or just regular use). Like maybe, I dunno, Hold or whatnot. In a Cooldown system, you do not have that option. You have to wait for the cooldown and you are forced to use other spells. While some may argue that forces a more diverse use of spells, I would say that limits my options as a spell caster.

I am sure the more you focus on the cooldown mechanic the more one notices that it imposes quite a few limitations on the player while also severly limited strategic and tactical depth.
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#34
Ieo

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Why not give the player ingame knowledge of what to prepare for? An encounter with a lich written in an adventurer's diary detailing the spells it used on his fellow adventurers before horribly wounding him and allowing him to wander the cave till his minions ate him alive. A rumor overheard after some mead of spell caster X who specializes in illusions. Finding a mage's spellbook in his room long before you actually face him. Etc.

There should be ways of finding out info before battles.

that definitely can work, but it really takes away the feeling of intelligence for figuring out a fight. Typically when something like that is included it feels like the game just beats you over the head with the answer and the fight ends up lacking any excitement because you already know what to expect.


Well, in any battle where survival is key, it behooves the party to do some initial investigation, scouting, whatever. That is the intelligent thing to do, because we're not talking about an "honor system" like a duel against a lich on equal footing. I think I would prefer having some in-game immersive hints where appropriate and with specific PC stat checks (NPC likes the race, or charisma, or something, or finding some little note tucked away from a different quest) than a metagaming "strategy" after a failed attempt, but that's just me.

Also, a lot of people are just continuing to complain without offering ways to counter the weaknesses of CDs; Obsidian made up its mind on a technical matter, and I really doubt any amount of complaining afterwards is going to change that. Man up.

#35
Hypevosa

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I think this is the best argument I've read against Vancian magic ... and it comes straight from JE Sawyer
http://www.formsprin...730408441642308


Melnorme
I suspect that PE will end up NOT using the Vancian magic system. But I do feel that the role of the spellbook as a custom-made "toolkit" that needs to be prepared ahead of time is integral to the IE spirit. Can this be achieved in a non-Vancian system?

JESawyer
I think it can, but I also think we need to be cognizant that advance preparation does not always equal strategic gameplay. If the player is making choices "blind" (for lack of a better term) and those choices have a huge effect on efficacy, that's not really a strategic blunder as much as a bad guess. I think some of the spell prep requirements in BG2 fell into that category, where the player's only approach was to enter combat, see how he or she failed, and reload the game with a different set of spells memorized.

In difficult battles, reloading is not uncommon, but I think it usually feels better when the player's error is a tactical one rather than a "strategic" one -- strategic being in quotes because there's no way for the player to know what's coming outside of metagaming.


I was mostly leaning toward wanting a Vancian system in the game, but after reading this, I think I might have just had my mind changed.


Why not give the player ingame knowledge of what to prepare for? An encounter with a lich written in an adventurer's diary detailing the spells it used on his fellow adventurers before horribly wounding him and allowing him to wander the cave till his minions ate him alive. A rumor overheard after some mead of spell caster X who specializes in illusions. Finding a mage's spellbook in his room long before you actually face him. Etc.

There should be ways of finding out info before battles.

that definitely can work, but it really takes away the feeling of intelligence for figuring out a fight. Typically when something like that is included it feels like the game just beats you over the head with the answer and the fight ends up lacking any excitement because you already know what to expect. If it can be done well, I would definitely like to see this implemented instead of just removing that aspect of choosing spells.


That depends on what the game tells you. "THE GUY WOULDN'T STOP CASTING MAGIC MISSILE" is different from the game explicitly telling you to cast the shield spell since it makes you immune. "He pointed his finger at orville and, in a flash of green light, he disappeared into a pile of ash!" is different from "he cast disintegrate". If you make the player have to know the spells and lore to know the answer, they've done their reconnaissance - and in a much less cheesy way than fighting and reloading.

#36
ogrezilla

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There are many problems with cooldowns.

Here is one. In the Vancian system, you may have several of a particular spell prepared because you want to cast it several times in fairly rapid succession (perhaps through spell sequencer use or just regular use). Like maybe, I dunno, Hold or whatnot. In a Cooldown system, you do not have that option. You have to wait for the cooldown and you are forced to use other spells. While some may argue that forces a more diverse use of spells, I would say that limits my options as a spell caster.

I am sure the more you focus on the cooldown mechanic the more one notices that it imposes quite a few limitations on the player while also severly limited strategic and tactical depth.


You can do a lot of different things with cooldowns. Even possibly a combination of vancian and cooldowns where cooldowns are really replacing rest instead of the spell memorization.

Well, in any battle where survival is key, it behooves the party to do some initial investigation, scouting, whatever. That is the intelligent thing to do, because we're not talking about an "honor system" like a duel against a lich on equal footing. I think I would prefer having some in-game immersive hints where appropriate and with specific PC stat checks (NPC likes the race, or charisma, or something, or finding some little note tucked away from a different quest) than a metagaming "strategy" after a failed attempt, but that's just me.

Also, a lot of people are just continuing to complain without offering ways to counter the weaknesses of CDs; Obsidian made up its mind on a technical matter, and I really doubt any amount of complaining afterwards is going to change that. Man up.

That depends on what the game tells you. "THE GUY WOULDN'T STOP CASTING MAGIC MISSILE" is different from the game explicitly telling you to cast the shield spell since it makes you immune. "He pointed his finger at orville and, in a flash of green light, he disappeared into a pile of ash!" is different from "he cast disintegrate". If you make the player have to know the spells and lore to know the answer, they've done their reconnaissance - and in a much less cheesy way than fighting and reloading.


I would definitely have no problem with it if they do it right. More often than not its done in a pretty unsatisfying and very blatant way. You don't feel smart afterwords, you just feel like someone forgot their spoiler warning. But that's a problem of writing and design, not the magic system.

I think we just need to wait and see what they plan to do with this. We know way too little to be making informed criticisms. But half of the posts in the last three hours have basically boiled down to cooldowns sucked in other games so they will always suck or the old IE games used Vancian so vancian is the only choice.

Edited by ogrezilla, 01 October 2012 - 08:56 PM.


#37
Shadenuat

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Just imagining that my "Soul" will have a "Cooldown" makes me go "WTFJap--Obsidian, seriously?".
Cooldowns are completely separated from setting already as they are. They are artificial, unless tied to in-game time in a more artsy style (a spell which can only be cast on some phases of the moon, for example).
Well, memorising is't that good either on that basis, though PnP also has ingredients which makes it more passable. Still remember how Torment tried to explain memorising inside it's setting, and it was a hard thing to believe in. But at least it's somewhat strategic and has a good feel when you search for new scrolls tirelessly in pursuit of arcane knowledge.

Edited by Shadenuat, 01 October 2012 - 08:58 PM.

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#38
khango

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If cooldowns are long enough it's not sooo bad, as in if it were like a sorcerer-style casting system where level 1 spells recharged at a rate of +1 per hour, level 2 at a rate of +1 per 2 hours, and so on, with normal spells per level progression, and your spell selection was a little more limited, like maybe you could only have spells from two complimentary schools active for casting without having to reset and zero your spell counters.....

Edited by khango, 01 October 2012 - 09:00 PM.


#39
Ieo

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I think we just need to wait and see what they plan to do with this. We know way too little to be making informed criticisms. But half of the posts in the last three hours have basically boiled down to cooldowns sucked in other games so they will always suck or the old IE games used Vancian so vancian is the only choice.


Yes, awful shame, that, but Sawyer & co. are very seasoned game software developers so I imagine they can come up with something different but still under the "cooldown" umbrella. Personally, I'd love to see a cooldown-Vancian-mana-soul combo system of some sort.

#40
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I think we just need to wait and see what they plan to do with this. We know way too little to be making informed criticisms. But half of the posts in the last three hours have basically boiled down to cooldowns sucked in other games so they will always suck or the old IE games used Vancian so vancian is the only choice.


Yes, awful shame, that, but Sawyer & co. are very seasoned game software developers so I imagine they can come up with something different but still under the "cooldown" umbrella. Personally, I'd love to see a cooldown-Vancian-mana-soul combo system of some sort.

Its a good group making the game. I'm staying positive. I don't think I'd enjoy being negative all the time.





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