Stun Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 (edited) What is good, is that I learned I did not prepare as well as I should have, and must take the deterrent of walking back and now will try again. This time with alternate tactics/spells. except this time its easier because part of the cave is already cleared. its not really a punishment. its just a waste of time. Learning experiences (what Jaesun is specifically describing) are never a waste of time. As for J.E. Sawyer's question. There's nothing "good" about walking back (well, unless the scenery of the carnage the player left behind is pleasing to the eyes, in which case, Yes, the Good is the eye candy) Then again, does it have to be good? Edited October 2, 2012 by Stun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tale Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 What is good, is that I learned I did not prepare as well as I should have, and must take the deterrent of walking back and now will try again. This time with alternate tactics/spells. If they can be faced with a deterrent and a need to change tactics without the need to walk back, would that be somehow worse? I agree with what you're saying about them needing to adjust tactics and needing a reason to see they need to adjust tactics. But, and maybe I was just making an assumption here, I was under the impression that would be happening anyway. The player would be having a hard time. They should be seeing that it's a hard time given how they're using so many abilities. They may even be about to hit a wall where they can no longer progress if they don't change their tactics. 3 "Show me a man who "plays fair" and I'll show you a very talented cheater." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metiman Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 But how can you always prepare for a sufficiently large battle? Come back at a higher level? At some point your spells will be exhausted and your mage will become less useful. To me this is not a major problem. Not enough to make me leave a dungeon at least. The major problem is what happens when most of your party are down to 30% of their hit points and you still need time to flee the battle. In that case you still have to go through all of the motions described (and hope that you can actually get away before getting creamed). This circumstance really only arises if you are not going all the way in terms of what your party can do before regrouping. Some encounters may be so difficult that that sort of strategy is necessary but not all. JoshSawyer: Listening to feedback from the fans has helped us realize that people can be pretty polarized on what they want, even among a group of people ostensibly united by a love of the same games. For us, that means prioritizing options is important. If people don’t like a certain aspect of how skill checks are presented or how combat works, we should give them the ability to turn that off, resources permitting. . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Osvir Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 (edited) Ah, I see where I made a blunder: what is good about the experience of walking back to the campsite? What Jaesun said pretty much, and what I ultimately meant as well with my post. What is good, is that I learned I did not prepare as well as I should have, and must take the deterrent of walking back and now will try again. This time with alternate tactics/spells. Basically I learned my lesson and will have to readjust. But I disagree with the existence of the walk, and think that it can be improved upon. I do like and enjoy the idea of something happening as well, during the time you walk back and forth. A lot of interesting things I'm sure. EDIT: If they can be faced with a deterrent and a need to change tactics without the need to walk back, would that be somehow worse? This. Edited October 2, 2012 by Osvir Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ogrezilla Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 (edited) What is good, is that I learned I did not prepare as well as I should have, and must take the deterrent of walking back and now will try again. This time with alternate tactics/spells. except this time its easier because part of the cave is already cleared. its not really a punishment. its just a waste of time. Learning experiences (what Jaesun is specifically describing) are never a waste of time. the walk back to town has nothing to do with the learning experience though. You would learn just as much if you could instantly heal up right there in the cave. The only thing different is the time you save not walking back. Edited October 2, 2012 by ogrezilla Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qstoffe Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 But it doesn't have a bigger punishment. It's a circumstance that arises all the time in IE games. Agreed but at least it's a little punishment. That's a lot better imo than using cooldown systems like Dragon Age where there wasn't any punishment at all! Why cooldowns are bad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jandor Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 Super hardcore dudes want super hardcore game, thats why Obsidian announced super hardcore mode. Now stop trying to ruin the normal game for those of us who aren't super hardcore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jasede Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 (edited) Fast travel is the devil. Edited October 2, 2012 by Jasede Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WayneWetski Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 So this large map had 20 level equivalent encounters on it, naturally causing you to use most of your spells, and you'd rather be forced to walk back to the safe resting area and walk back to where you were standing, when nothing new would happen inbetween? I know games are meant to waste time, but they're supposed to do it in an enjoyable fashion >_> Then they should make something interesting happen when you're backtracking/after you've done so? You can improve concepts. I know it's hard to believe in this industry, in this day and age, but it can happen! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tale Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 But it doesn't have a bigger punishment. It's a circumstance that arises all the time in IE games. Agreed but at least it's a little punishment. That's a lot better imo than using cooldown systems like Dragon Age where there wasn't any punishment at all! Dragon Age didn't have any punishment because Dragon Age didn't have any preparation. You can't punish people for something they are incapable of doing. "Show me a man who "plays fair" and I'll show you a very talented cheater." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ogrezilla Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 But it doesn't have a bigger punishment. It's a circumstance that arises all the time in IE games. Agreed but at least it's a little punishment. That's a lot better imo than using cooldown systems like Dragon Age where there wasn't any punishment at all! its not a real punishment though. You are not in any way disadvantaged. You just waste a few minutes of your time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stun Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 Fast travel is one of the evils of recent cRPG. Fast Travel is in every single one of the Infinity engine games. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Infinitron Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 (edited) I'm not sure I understand your response here, Josh. Yes, it doesn't have a bigger punishment. And yes, it happens often. How are those two things related to each other, and how do they refute qstoffe's point? They don't refute qstoffe's point; they reject qstoffe's point as an answer to the question, "What is good about the experience of walking back to the campsite?" Instead of answering my question, he chose to answer his own, presumably, "What is good about not running out of spells?" Eh, his point was that the experience of walking back to the campsite was a punishment for not playing well enough. That's what's good about it. He's not the only person here to have made that point. Perhaps you misunderstood him. Or do you want people to actually describe what is good about the actual "physical" experience of walking back to the campsite, as opposed to explaining what that experience is good for, teleologically? Edited October 2, 2012 by Infinitron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andreisiadi Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 Josh was hoping everyone would say "walking back to town is bad" so then he can say "Cooldowns will fix that." I would like to think it's pretty obvious for everybody. It's not isn't it. It never is... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DocDoomII Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 But it doesn't have a bigger punishment. It's a circumstance that arises all the time in IE games. Agreed but at least it's a little punishment. That's a lot better imo than using cooldown systems like Dragon Age where there wasn't any punishment at all! Dragon Age didn't have any punishment because Dragon Age didn't have any preparation. You can't punish people for something they are incapable of doing. Health and Mana even replenished almost instantly while ooc... Do you think Pillars of Eternity doesn't have enough Portraits? Submit your vote in this Poll! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hypevosa Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 So this large map had 20 level equivalent encounters on it, naturally causing you to use most of your spells, and you'd rather be forced to walk back to the safe resting area and walk back to where you were standing, when nothing new would happen inbetween? I know games are meant to waste time, but they're supposed to do it in an enjoyable fashion >_> Then they should make something interesting happen when you're backtracking/after you've done so? You can improve concepts. I know it's hard to believe in this industry, in this day and age, but it can happen! Again, a proposal I made earlier: 1. Hit rest button 2. Game plays in fast forward, your party heading back to safe resting area. 3. Rests 4. Fast forwards as your party heads back to where it was. If at any point you run into resistance the game pauses and gives you control again. The point is don't waste tons of player time unnecessarily. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metiman Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 Would not a 3 minute animation of leaving the dungeon and setting up camp also be a punishment? It certainly would for me. Just not as much of one as actually having to do it. JoshSawyer: Listening to feedback from the fans has helped us realize that people can be pretty polarized on what they want, even among a group of people ostensibly united by a love of the same games. For us, that means prioritizing options is important. If people don’t like a certain aspect of how skill checks are presented or how combat works, we should give them the ability to turn that off, resources permitting. . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andreisiadi Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 Super hardcore dudes want super hardcore game, thats why Obsidian announced super hardcore mode. Now stop trying to ruin the normal game for those of us who aren't super hardcore. How about you get "super easy mode" instead, and the core game caters to us hardcore dudes. I like that option better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qstoffe Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 its not a real punishment though. You are not in any way disadvantaged. You just waste a few minutes of your time. I don't know about you but I would definitely see it as punishment enough to make me reserve my spells better the next time. Why cooldowns are bad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MReed Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 But I disagree with the existence of the walk, and think that it can be improved upon. I do like and enjoy the idea of something happening as well, during the time you walk back and forth. A lot of interesting things I'm sure. Ah, I see -- so the tedium of walking back the camp isn't sufficient punishment for bad players -- instead, we need to heap additional punishments on top of them. Well, I suppose that's one strategy you could follow... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metiman Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 It's true. You could make the choice an option. Ah yes. Optional cooldowns as I've posted about elsewhere. JoshSawyer: Listening to feedback from the fans has helped us realize that people can be pretty polarized on what they want, even among a group of people ostensibly united by a love of the same games. For us, that means prioritizing options is important. If people don’t like a certain aspect of how skill checks are presented or how combat works, we should give them the ability to turn that off, resources permitting. . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stun Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 What is good, is that I learned I did not prepare as well as I should have, and must take the deterrent of walking back and now will try again. This time with alternate tactics/spells. except this time its easier because part of the cave is already cleared. its not really a punishment. its just a waste of time. Learning experiences (what Jaesun is specifically describing) are never a waste of time. the walk back to town has nothing to do with the learning experience though. Sure it does. The learning is in the action -> consequence. Used up your arsenal too fast? Then you're going to have to take some time and walk back to camp. What is learned: Be more economical with your arsenal next time, or else you'll need to walk back...again. You would learn just as much if you could instantly heal up right there in the cave. The only thing different is the time you save not walking back. Nonsense. Insta-heals are not a consequence of using up your spells too fast. They are the Opposite. They're a reward. Thus the player doesn't learn to change his tactics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DocDoomII Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 (edited) Fast travel is one of the evils of recent cRPG. Fast Travel is in every single one of the Infinity engine games. That's a bit different. Since the world was divided in small maps you had to have a way to go from one to the other. It was necessary. Though they could have done so that you could only move to adjacent maps.In games like Skyrim or Fallout 3 where the map is a whole, fast travel is just a lazy way to move from point A to point B very quickly. I personally never use it when playing this kind of games. Edited October 2, 2012 by DocDoomII Do you think Pillars of Eternity doesn't have enough Portraits? Submit your vote in this Poll! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eicee Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 Here is something I would like to hear opinions on. Take the following circumstance, which is not uncommon in the IE games and would be somewhat similar to the KotC "campsite" system in circumstances were you are not locked off from backtracking to a campsite. * You are in a location where resting is either prohibited or extraordinarily likely to result in an encounter. You do not know the location of the next campsite/safe resting area. * You have cast many of your spells and the ones that remain are not entirely appropriate for the encounters you are now facing. * Because you came from an area where you could rest and are not locked in the location, you have a cleared (by you) path back to the area where you can safely rest. * It will take you three minutes of real time to walk back to the camp, maybe thirty seconds to reconfigure spells, five seconds to rest, and another three minutes of real time to walk back to where you had left off. * Because you killed everything between you and the campsite, there are no threats between you and the campsite. In this circumstance, what is good about the experience of walking back to the campsite? That I have fallen victim to the illiusion of danger. I have expanded resources and am more willing to "waste" some off my time than to proceed with my lessend arsenal. At least to me there is some profoundness in the experience and makes the game feel more "dangerous". Grantet, if this happens 50+ times in the game it becomes more and more tedious, but I think experiencing this resource shortage really often is better than never experiencing it. Another solution to this situation I could probably live with would be a potion or something that would replenish all my spells if this potion is at least expensive and rare enough to feel like using resources and like a potion in a diablo clone which you chug like there is no tomorrow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.E. Sawyer Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 JESawyer's post implies cooldowns will be on the order of 5 minutes long. No it doesn't. Nothing about it implies that. The obvious answer is nothing - but the question is loaded. We are talking about the Infinity Engine games and the experience that they created. Do you believe my representation of how players actually played the game is inaccurate? Am I wrong? Did people look at Dragon's Eye in IWD and guess, "You know, I bet there's... five levels to this place... lizard men with shamans, armored skeletons, blast skeletons, some cold wights, ghouls, a cleric of Talona, disguised yuani-ti casters, a mix of yuan-ti fighters and casters and... I've got a feeling there's a marilith at the bottom." and then do a point-to-point march through the dungeon, not only selecting, but conserving their spells perfectly so they never had to backtrack out? I feel like I'm describing what is a very common circumstance in the Infinity Engine games. People pay attention, make educated guesses, but ultimately are unable to know the full extent of the challenges they are dealing with. The only way they would be able to do so is through extraordinary prescience. 6 twitter tyme Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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