Gratification in Acquiring Epic/Legendary Items

A problem i find in the occasional modern rpg is that unique items are often too easy to find and are often done so by either random drops or in a chest on your way to a greater goal.

Another traditional method of acquiring them is through boss fights. Yes ok, fighting a particularly powerful foe should yield its rewards, but for those items, these legendary artifacts that have changed the course of that games history, they should be secretive, they should not be found simply as a drop to a boss you had to kill anyway.

Dragon Age has the same problem, some of the most powerful items there are found simply on your way to another objective, in obvious shining containers. What is the gratification in finding a beautifully crafted weapon, giving you an edge in combat simply as a prize for not being completely blind?

Skyrim had a good idea with locations of certain artifacts hidden in books. The problem was that it marked the location of the item on your map the moment you picked up the book and left nothing to chance, the book itself was also commonly found.

 

Playing Fable, i recall the most powerful sword required a certain alignment for the tomb that contained it to open, another was a sword-in-the-stone type where you could see men from the local village trying their strength attempting to pull it out, not to mention certain chests that required a particular amount of keys found throughout the world. That is what i would like to see, that there is some challenge involved in finding an artifact of significant power, be it trough optional side quests , cryptic requirements or deducing their location through obscure data. If you absolutely cant find it and still want it, ask google.

 

PS: I make a distinction between unique and legendary items. Legendaries are certainly unique but are distinct through power and historical relevance.

Edited September 22, 2012 by Gyges

My other is being able to craft a unique weapon. Whether that be via finding a recipe and then tracking down all the ingredients...or just working on it yourself via experimentation. That would be pretty fun and rewarding.

Dragon Age: Origins had a lot of powerful items given through hidden quests with cryptic clues and puzzles. I liked it a lot. Hidden, super powerful bosses like the Lich in Baldur's Gate 2 are also awesome. It sucks to get my ass kicked while peeking into dark corners, but it is satisfying to have the feeling of hope and anxiety it brings too.

I do like needing to do some significant exploring and fighting to get Teh Ossum Lootz, but no grinding please. Grinding in a single-player game is a HORRIBLE mechanic.

 

That being said, I also like it if there are a lot of gear tradeoffs in the game--like you can get random items with single large bonuses, or get a legendary item with 8 good bonuses on it, and occasionally that random +80% fire damage staff is just so tempting anyway.

 

Basically, I don't want a situation where by the end of the game you're wearing 100% of your unique/legendary loot and you've sold 100% of your random or base level loot. Because if the base level loot is going to be worthless, they should just give you cash instead and save you the running around.

Your question seems to be deeply embedded into the world of Action "RPGs" (used in the loosest terms possibly). The distinction between "Legendary" and "Unique" is semantics, at best.

 

Preferably, there should be no tiering like this in Project Eternity at all, nor should there be any dominant "way" to to get "legendaries". If they colour-code for stupid, I'm throwing my copy into the bay.

I'd much rather have a system where weaponry is secondary to our character class skills and abilities. In some games weaponry is so strong that you could ignore all your abilities for half of the game if you picked up the right weapon early enough.

 

Before Tales of the Sword Coast addon BG1 had a decent gear curve, nothing was super strong and spells and abilities won you battles much more than weapons did.

 

Of course the problem is always that as content is added and levels progress eventually access to powerful items becomes easier with players cheesing content at much earlier levels to get the gear. The longer we can stay away from that the better.

First of all I don't want a world cluttered with magic/unique/legendary items.

These should be rare.

And for legendary items... I mean... how many legends are there? In a world that has seen war many times across most countries, then maybe we get a legend for every decade or so, and that is likely a single item.

 

With that said, if the player finds 5 or 6 of those, it is a great victory.

 

I also agree with what Raban said. Skills should be more important than weapons.

And furthermore, I rather have different weapons with different effects, than a single better weapon that fits all.

 

Back to the items, this would be valid possibilities for finding such items:

- by killing a very powerful humanoid

- as a supposedly mundane item (ring) which you can see that there is a lot more to it if you have a very high lore and read a certain book (you then have to use the book on the item, to unleash its power, for example the book as some spell that needs to be recited)

- by finding obscure references to them in lore and then deducing their location, which leads to hidden dungeon

- clearing up a mega-dungeon

 

 

BTW, Gyges, since you like polearms, what do you think of mounted combat with polearms and gleaves? see here

Edited September 23, 2012 by hideo kuze

Personally I don't really like the idea of item tiers in this type of game. This isn't a blizzard game.

 

Magical or Mundane.

I want epic weapons in barrels, in the alleys behind taverns. Who's with me?!

 

It has to be a combination of ways. My ideal is that there would Legendary items similar to the Daedric artifacts in TES: you'd find mention of them, quest them through significant side-quests and then find them. Not every Legendary item need be super-powerful: half the time they would be more like trophies.

 

Unique items would be crafted or won from Boss fights: there would be a set for each class, so that people who wanted the entire set would have to perform a range of specific tasks, and there'd be a set bonus.

 

Rare items should be of a lower quality and discoverable in chests or occasionally as quest rewards. I like 'riot of swag' games such as Torchlight but I think that you can have too much of a good thing, and I don't like re-equipping my characters after every trash mob.

there can be multiple ways to get it.

Edited September 23, 2012 by molarBear

Personally I don't really like the idea of item tiers in this type of game. This isn't a blizzard game.

 

Magical or Mundane.

 

Maybe I misunderstood, but my concept for legendary is that they are powerful (i.e., the best) magical items that have an amazing lore behind it. The stuff of legends.

Edited September 23, 2012 by hideo kuze

I think the best approach is what the IE games had when it come to good magical items. Some were found on bosses (or chest), some were rewards for quests, some were simply found hidden somewhere, some required understanding riddles/hints.

 

But the most important part was that they were all hand placed, no random "all powerful" loot.

I never meant to imply i wanted color-coding included. Let me rephrase, a legendary item might be a unique artifact, deeply embedded in the lore of the game, with abilities and historical context that separates it from the common enchanted dagger or jewelry. Regardless of whether there will be item tiers, or the rarity of magical enchantments, a legendary artifact is difficult to claim, and if someone already possesses one, assume they are of either considerable personal or political power. These items should not be something you can just stumble over either, as some sort of banal bonus for not being blind when you prance around during a quest.'They could for example be artifacts given to men and mere by gods as tools meant to further their goals in a proxy-war against a rival deity.

 

 

I think the best approach is what the IE games had when it come to good magical items. Some were found on bosses (or chest), some were rewards for quests, some were simply found hidden somewhere, some required understanding riddles/hints.

 

But the most important part was that they were all hand placed, no random "all powerful" loot.

 

This i agree with. I think the reason i feel so strongly about this was the disappointment in going through hordes of enemies in Oblivion and behind a closed master locked door at the very end of the dungeon i found a potion and 3 gold coins. Hand placing indeed.

Edited September 23, 2012 by Gyges

I want epic weapons in barrels, in the alleys behind taverns. Who's with me?!

 

 

As long as there's a justification for it, like, that's where Fafhrd landed when they chucked him out of the bar for being obnoxious and drunk. Then later on he shows up and kicks your ass to get his sword back. Then he invites you out for a drink which eventually devolves into an orgy. Then when you can't pay your tab you go and raid the Supreme Majestic Temple together, steal the Holy Sacred Jewels, and impale the High Priest through the viscera. And the Supreme Majestic God curses you with burning hemorrhoids. And then you go terrorize the town by setting things on fire with your self-lighting farts. And Fafhrd is so impressed that he gives you the sword.

I don't like it when all the best unique items in an RPG are tied into the main questlines somehow, so you can't really miss them. When I acquire them that way, it doesn't really feel like i've made a great discovery at all. Instead, it just feels like i've followed the path the developers intended me to follow, and found an item every single person playing the game will also find.

 

Another thing I hate is when all of the best unique items are guarded by some kind of boss. I understand the need to challenge the player before rewarding them... but doing this all the time makes the whole experience kind of artificial.

 

So I would prefer most rare artifacts to be hidden away in the world, in locations that aren't necessarily quest related, with only faint references to some of the artifacts in lore. Some should be guarded by high level monsters or bosses, while others should be quite easy to obtain once you find their location.

Obscure references, I would like to hunt them out.

 

As for the kind of satisfaction in obtaining them, I can not say I care much personally, the fun is in the journey, so how we get them is quite important.

 

What I do not want to see is that they are listed in every merchant inventory. Their is no fun in saving up to buy the biggest gun in the shop. Also knowing right from the start what are the best weapons lessens the sense of accomplishment of obtaining lesser gear earlier in the game.

"By finding obscure references to them in lore and then deducing their location."

 

No. This will never work out well. It will either be quite obvious if you read the right book/hear the right clue or far too vague and time consuming and I'll just read all the locations in a guide and I don't like using guides.

 

As far as I'm concerned the way they did it in IE games worked pretty well. I'd probably enjoy hearing some more rumours about fabled items from people or in books before finding them in game to get some build-up.

Edited September 24, 2012 by limaxophobiacq

All of the options are fine, as long as the chests are also from bosses'. But no randomized loot, grinding should be avoided to become neccesary for anything(other than grinding). And no crafting(especially by the player). If a smith can suddenly create an Infinity Plus One Sword or similar, the materials better be unique and really hard to find/aquire.

Edited September 24, 2012 by kenup

Other - Who cares? Uber items are stupid, please leave that crap out of my old school RPG.

Personally?

 

Boss Fights: Legendary enemies should hold legendary artifacts, but they should not be push overs.

 

Lore reference: Lore references should be a way to find them, though they should be extremely hard to locate without unconventional thinking, or while fulfilling a great challenge (clearing an entire haunted fortress and being rewarded with a single weapon or armor piece).

 

Morrowind's still my favorite example with daedric armor.

Other - Who cares? Uber items are stupid, please leave that crap out of my old school RPG.

 

Given that powerfull artifacts are a staple of the fantasy literature that ultimately inspired the games, and the myths that inspire that literature, I don't really see how they're not appropriate.

Mostly I just hate the random container thing.

There should also be items hidden inside very narrow spots on treeholes, or under rocks or inside table legs the way we had in IE games. Those were really cool to find, but I think they shouldn't be highlight-able like they were in IE games. They should be either found with the use of trap detection or simply by noticing something strange within a particular spot on the scenery. I found a few this way in IWD and IWD2.

Leendary stuff should be seomthing obviously unique, with obviously a story that makes it legendary.

 

As to where it's found... well it should mainly depends on the lors of who used to posses it or where it was last seen or if the owner was found dead drunk and lost his weapon one day...