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Badmojo

No autoleveling of skills (bethesda style)

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Just a request, please no horrible autoleveling of skills based on what skills you use. I have seen a few people suggest getting xp to level up the skills you use and I say please don't. The few games that have done this are horrible. Yes, it makes sense that the weapon/tools you use would level up and if you don't use it then it wouldn't. However, skyrim shows exactly why its a bad idea. A lot of times you do not use important skills that often, take speech, sneaking, or some of the few other skills. Also, you are often forced to use skills you don't want to because of various reasons. I am usually a mage player, but I often have to use a sword/wepon because my mana would run out, or my magic isn't powerful enough. So my XP would end up leveling my sword skill instead of my magic use, which is NOT what I want to level up. So, I think it would be best just to go old school, collect XP regardless of what you use, then distribute them how you wish.

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Yeah, the Elder Scrolls system of leveling is a great example of how more realistic does not necessarily mean more enjoyable.

 

Anyway, since this is supposed to be a spiritual successor to the Infinity Engine games, I'm pretty sure that experience and leveling will work like in Icewind Dale, Baldur's Gate, etc.

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Yes, totally agree with OP. Part of the reasoning behind Bethesda's system is to let the player to develop his skills based on his play style. Since it is about giving player choice, might as well let the player distribute stats as they wish. Having a system to simulate that, a system which can often fail to give you the combination of stats you want, simply fustrates the player.

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Bethesda makes RPGs for gamers that hate RPGs. Everything is dumbed down so far that the game does everything for you. It is more of a hack & slash than anything else.

 

Obsidian said that they want to make an RPG and not a hack & slash - so don't worry, it will be awesome! :D

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:closed:

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I am usually a mage player, but I often have to use a sword/wepon because my mana would run out, or my magic isn't powerful enough. So my XP would end up leveling my sword skill instead of my magic use, which is NOT what I want to level up.

Of course it should go to the sword skill. Why should your magic skill benefit from you wielding a sword...?

 

Collecting XP then distributing it however you want is dumb, overly simplistic, and unrealistic.

 

As i've said in a previous thread, Bethesda haven't really implemented their skill systems well in their games (for a number of reasons), but they definitely have the right idea with skill progression actually being relevant and tied to the actions your character performs.

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:) I must protest. I loved Morrowind, liked Oblivion after some really good mods were made, Played Skyrim quite a bit and got my monies worth. I role play those games. Hokay, part of the reason I played Oblivion and Skyrim so much was I couldn't find RPGs to play. Except the old ones. Skyrim, well, afraid there isn't too much to say about Skyrim. It has been a disappointment to even long time TES fans.

 

I am sure the skill leveling system or rather the XP system will resemble the older games. I trust Obsidian to know what they are doing.

Edited by Nakia

 I have but one enemy: myself  - Drow saying


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I am usually a mage player, but I often have to use a sword/wepon because my mana would run out, or my magic isn't powerful enough. So my XP would end up leveling my sword skill instead of my magic use, which is NOT what I want to level up.

Of course it should go to the sword skill. Why should your magic skill benefit from you wielding a sword...?

 

Collecting XP then distributing it however you want is dumb, overly simplistic, and unrealistic.

 

As i've said in a previous thread, Bethesda haven't really implemented their skill systems well in their games (for a number of reasons), but they definitely have the right idea with skill progression actually being relevant and tied to the actions your character performs.

this a bazillion times...

 

I hate the notion that i kan kill a 100 kobolds with a dagger or staff and i can somehow "store away" that killing XP for my magic skills...how the hell does that make any sense?

 

of course i'm only ok with growing cross class skills i use if there is no silly level cap that says "sorry chum, you seem to have maxed out you XP tank...too bad, maybe next time you will run away from those kobolds so you can kill them with magic like a good mage."

Edited by NerdBoner

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Bethesda makes RPGs for gamers that hate RPGs. Everything is dumbed down so far that the game does everything for you. It is more of a hack & slash than anything else.

Skyrim is dumbed down because they removed attributes, several skills, made progression quicker, and made everything too reliant on silly perks that shouldn't even be perks (like % damage increase). Not because skill progression is actually relevant to the actions your character performs.

 

Think about it. What's more dumb:

 

- Kill a monster in any way you want, get XP, level any skill you want

 

or

 

- Only gaining a skill increase if/when you actually perform a task that warrants it

 

...

 

The XP way is for kiddies who want too much freedom. "i'm a mage, but I should be able to run around with a hammer at any time and still improve my magic skill" :down:

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I have a shameless love of Bethesda games (if not always their writing and quest design) but I'd massively prefer XP and skillpoints for Project Eternity.

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I am usually a mage player, but I often have to use a sword/wepon because my mana would run out, or my magic isn't powerful enough. So my XP would end up leveling my sword skill instead of my magic use, which is NOT what I want to level up.

Of course it should go to the sword skill. Why should your magic skill benefit from you wielding a sword...?

 

Collecting XP then distributing it however you want is dumb, overly simplistic, and unrealistic.

 

As i've said in a previous thread, Bethesda haven't really implemented their skill systems well in their games (for a number of reasons), but they definitely have the right idea with skill progression actually being relevant and tied to the actions your character performs.

this a bazillion times...

 

I hate the notion that i kan kill a 100 kobolds with a dagger or staff and i can somehow "store away" that killing XP for my magic skills...how the hell does that make any sense?

 

of course i'm only ok with growing cross class skills i use if there is no silly level cap that says "sorry chum, you seem to have maxed out you XP tank...too bad, maybe next time you will run away from those kobolds so you can kill them with magic like a good mage."

 

Your argument goes at the window when you realize you can throw fireballs from your fingertips, tell me what is realistic about that. Its a game, I want to have control over how my character evolves, I know it *MIGHT* seem more realistic to have the game level up based on what you use, but it forces you down a particular path you do not want to go. Also, how do you level up skills that you do not use a lot like charisma? Speech? sneaking...etc. In skyrim, you had to do the horrible "grinding" of skills that you did not use just to level it up. like constantly sneaking, or throwing fireballs in the air, over, and over, and over again just to level it up. Autolevel was not created to make the game realistic, it was created for the dumb masses who do not play RPG's. Give me skill points to distribute how I want, do not make my choices for me.

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The XP way is for kiddies who want too much freedom. "i'm a mage, but I should be able to run around with a hammer at any time and still improve my magic skill" :down:

And why would a mage use a hammer in a game if he sucks with it and can do nothing other than die when using one?


:closed:

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I am usually a mage player, but I often have to use a sword/wepon because my mana would run out, or my magic isn't powerful enough. So my XP would end up leveling my sword skill instead of my magic use, which is NOT what I want to level up.

Of course it should go to the sword skill. Why should your magic skill benefit from you wielding a sword...?

 

Collecting XP then distributing it however you want is dumb, overly simplistic, and unrealistic.

 

As i've said in a previous thread, Bethesda haven't really implemented their skill systems well in their games (for a number of reasons), but they definitely have the right idea with skill progression actually being relevant and tied to the actions your character performs.

this a bazillion times...

 

I hate the notion that i kan kill a 100 kobolds with a dagger or staff and i can somehow "store away" that killing XP for my magic skills...how the hell does that make any sense?

 

of course i'm only ok with growing cross class skills i use if there is no silly level cap that says "sorry chum, you seem to have maxed out you XP tank...too bad, maybe next time you will run away from those kobolds so you can kill them with magic like a good mage."

 

Your argument goes at the window when you realize you can throw fireballs from your fingertips, tell me what is realistic about that. Its a game, I want to have control over how my character evolves, I know it *MIGHT* seem more realistic to have the game level up based on what you use, but it forces you down a particular path you do not want to go. Also, how do you level up skills that you do not use a lot like charisma? Speech? sneaking...etc. In skyrim, you had to do the horrible "grinding" of skills that you did not use just to level it up. like constantly sneaking, or throwing fireballs in the air, over, and over, and over again just to level it up. Autolevel was not created to make the game realistic, it was created for the dumb masses who do not play RPG's. Give me skill points to distribute how I want, do not make my choices for me.

So how about some sort of compromise then, as I suggested in another thread?

 

Skills improve slowly, relevant to the actions your character performs (fairly common actions, like hacking a monster to death with a sword), but you can also gain experience for completing more significant tasks or goals that really challenge your character's abilities. Such experience can then be distributed freely.

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I am usually a mage player, but I often have to use a sword/wepon because my mana would run out, or my magic isn't powerful enough. So my XP would end up leveling my sword skill instead of my magic use, which is NOT what I want to level up.

Of course it should go to the sword skill. Why should your magic skill benefit from you wielding a sword...?

 

Collecting XP then distributing it however you want is dumb, overly simplistic, and unrealistic.

 

As i've said in a previous thread, Bethesda haven't really implemented their skill systems well in their games (for a number of reasons), but they definitely have the right idea with skill progression actually being relevant and tied to the actions your character performs.

this a bazillion times...

 

I hate the notion that i kan kill a 100 kobolds with a dagger or staff and i can somehow "store away" that killing XP for my magic skills...how the hell does that make any sense?

 

of course i'm only ok with growing cross class skills i use if there is no silly level cap that says "sorry chum, you seem to have maxed out you XP tank...too bad, maybe next time you will run away from those kobolds so you can kill them with magic like a good mage."

 

Your argument goes at the window when you realize you can throw fireballs from your fingertips, tell me what is realistic about that. Its a game, I want to have control over how my character evolves, I know it *MIGHT* seem more realistic to have the game level up based on what you use, but it forces you down a particular path you do not want to go. Also, how do you level up skills that you do not use a lot like charisma? Speech? sneaking...etc. In skyrim, you had to do the horrible "grinding" of skills that you did not use just to level it up. like constantly sneaking, or throwing fireballs in the air, over, and over, and over again just to level it up. Autolevel was not created to make the game realistic, it was created for the dumb masses who do not play RPG's. Give me skill points to distribute how I want, do not make my choices for me.

Urgh. There is realism as it pertains to our world, and realism as it pertains to internal consistency. Please don't try to use both kinds interchangeably.

 

That said, although taking EXP from roasting 100 kobolds and pumping it in to swordplay is unrealistic in both senses, it becomes substantially less so if most EXP is earned from non-combat thangs. Quests, personal character growth. That stuff.

 

And **** "improve thing by doing thing", yo.


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And why would a mage use a hammer in a game if he sucks with it and can do nothing other than die when using one?

Well to use the example the OP gave, his mana might run out forcing him to use a melee weapon. In such a situation, I really don't see why his magic skills should benefit at all from the experience.

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Just a request, please no horrible autoleveling of skills based on what skills you use. I have seen a few people suggest getting xp to level up the skills you use and I say please don't. The few games that have done this are horrible. Yes, it makes sense that the weapon/tools you use would level up and if you don't use it then it wouldn't. However, skyrim shows exactly why its a bad idea. A lot of times you do not use important skills that often, take speech, sneaking, or some of the few other skills. Also, you are often forced to use skills you don't want to because of various reasons. I am usually a mage player, but I often have to use a sword/wepon because my mana would run out, or my magic isn't powerful enough. So my XP would end up leveling my sword skill instead of my magic use, which is NOT what I want to level up. So, I think it would be best just to go old school, collect XP regardless of what you use, then distribute them how you wish.

 

I don't necessarily agree or disagree with your request, but I would just like to point out that games have been doing use-improves-skills systems for ages before Skyrim, and that there are good and bad ways to do it. The Elder Scrolls versions are far from the best. So, if you don't like the way the TES does something, talk about that, don't generalize to every game you've never played that has done it well.

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And why would a mage use a hammer in a game if he sucks with it and can do nothing other than die when using one?

Well to use the example the OP gave, his mana might run out forcing him to use a melee weapon. In such a situation, I really don't see why his magic skills should benefit at all from the experience.

Then use a mana potion. ^^

 

Anyway, in a system like D&D you actually can improve your weapon skills with a mage - even though a mage only uses it as a last resort, because they suck with a dagger.

So if you do receive a little XP from using your dagger, then that is absolutely fine.


:closed:

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Just a request, please no horrible autoleveling of skills based on what skills you use. I have seen a few people suggest getting xp to level up the skills you use and I say please don't. The few games that have done this are horrible. Yes, it makes sense that the weapon/tools you use would level up and if you don't use it then it wouldn't. However, skyrim shows exactly why its a bad idea. A lot of times you do not use important skills that often, take speech, sneaking, or some of the few other skills. Also, you are often forced to use skills you don't want to because of various reasons. I am usually a mage player, but I often have to use a sword/wepon because my mana would run out, or my magic isn't powerful enough. So my XP would end up leveling my sword skill instead of my magic use, which is NOT what I want to level up. So, I think it would be best just to go old school, collect XP regardless of what you use, then distribute them how you wish.

 

I don't necessarily agree or disagree with your request, but I would just like to point out that games have been doing use-improves-skills systems for ages before Skyrim, and that there are good and bad ways to do it. The Elder Scrolls versions are far from the best. So, if you don't like the way the TES does something, talk about that, don't generalize to every game you've never played that has done it well.

 

 

Well, I don't see why a sword user can use a sword all day without stoping, but mages run out of magic, Really, I cannot think of any game that has done it well, or perhaps I have avoided them. Can you give some examples. Still, this is about OLD school RPGs and while I think some things can be improved by modern implementations, I do not think autoleveling is one. We can argue realism vs non realism, but in the end I prefer old school skill points and using them the way I like without the system deciding it for me. I have also not seen anybody talk about how autolevel avoids important skills like speech because you just do not use it that much, but is very important to level up for non combat characters.

Edited by Badmojo

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In my (somewhat limited) experience:

--Skills that are dependent on you using them to level can be fine in some games, but it does require more work/thought to get all the ones you want to the point you want, if you want, say, multiple weapon skills to be high.

--Skills where you use points or find a trainer to buy "the next level" don't require micro-management.

 

I'm not sure either method is dumbed down or whatever ... they're just different. Either can work well, again, depending on the design of the game. That all said, I personally tend to prefer the latter. Or a kind of mixture, where certain aspects of skills level up with more use, but you can still buy upgrades for them - either directly (to bypass having to level them yourself to a point) or indirectly (you're buying improvements to what the skill can do, rather than the base skill itself).


“Things are as they are. Looking out into the universe at night, we make no comparisons between right and wrong stars, nor between well and badly arranged constellations.” – Alan Watts

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Then use a mana potion. ^^

 

Anyway, in a system like D&D you actually can improve your weapon skills with a mage - even though a mage only uses it as a last resort, because they suck with a dagger.

So if you do receive a little XP from using your dagger, then that is absolutely fine.

I still think the XP way gives the player too much freedom to level up any skill they want in a way that isn't directly tied to their interactions with the gameworld.

 

Well, I don't see why a sword user can use a sword all day without stoping, but mages run out of magic

Okay, then to use another example - a warrior's sword breaks in the middle of a dungeon. Unable to find a replacement, he has to rely on basic sneak skills to get out alive.

 

In such a situation, I fail to see why the warrior should continue to receive XP which can just be planted onto their sword skills, when logically it should be their sneak skill that improves.

 

I have also not seen anybody talk about how autolevel avoids important skills like speech because you just do not use it that much, but is very important to level up for non combat characters.

A player who is interested in roleplaying a character with great skill in speechcraft should naturally spend a lot of time performing speech-related tasks, such as persuading NPCs, learning languages, etc. Is it really so hard to balance the game so that such a skill levels up at a healthy rate compared to combat skills?

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I agree with Piccolo, personally. The notion of giving yourself increased magical skills by running about hitting things with a stick is somewhat misguided, whilst the idea that you should level what you use seems inherently superior. Of course, the devil is in the details but there are many ways to balance this off in a way you like by having classes, or defining your own specialized skills such as in morrowind.

 

I'm not going to turn this into a debate on which games are superior, I think morrowind and sykrim are fantastic games, but I do have a personal place in my heart for the old IE games that theywill never replace. However, I don't think the difference between the games has anything to do with the leveling system, at least not with me specifically. Nor do I feel either leveling system needs to be limited to the implementations of their games.

 

If anything sykrim/oblivion/morrowind is a different type of game based on the view point, both the fact its 3D, and the fact it mainly focuses from an ineyes perspective of the single protagonist. Further everything you do struggles to make an impact due to the weaknesses in story writing, character development, and mostly crappy acting. Theres epic quests, as you'd say, just don't feel very epic.

 

They're still good games, in my opinion, but honestly the IE games are mostly about the writing in my opinion. Give me the same writing / atmosphere, and I don't imagine the majority of games will care deeply about game mechanics, as long as they're somewhat thought provoking. :)

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Betrayal at Krondor a very old game used the the method of leveling up a skill according to how often you used it. Please let's not insult each others preferenes in games or skill/perks advancement. Obsidian has probably already decided the basics of how they will do this. Each system has it advantages and its diadvantages and using Skyrim as an example of how to use the level up a skill to get points for perks is not a good one. It took a step in the right direction for doing that but didn't quite succeed in my opinion.

 

Maybe this should be a poll. :) Actually why couldn't a hybrid method. It is Obsidian's call not mine.


 I have but one enemy: myself  - Drow saying


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xp system rewards characters for role playing while skill use system rewards characters for slamming their head into a wall for hours on end. That is why I like the xp system.

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Grandiose statements, cryptic warnings, blind fanboyisim and an opinion that leaves no room for argument and will never be dissuaded. Welcome to the forums, you'll go far in this place my boy, you'll go far!

 

The people who are a part of the "Fallout Community" have been refined and distilled over time into glittering gems of hatred.

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Skyrim (and other Bethesda titles) does a very good job at what its for. It's not a particularly good RPG - terrible actually - but for a fantasy, 1st person/OTS magic/sword/bow simulator/dungeon crawler it's quite good and I admit I dumped well over a hundred hours playing it. Personally, I prefer the Infinity style games, particularly Fallout and Arcanum for a free form exploration game, but that doesn't mean that the aforementioned Skyrim is crap, it's just a shame Skyrim is what passes for an RPG these days.

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