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Mega-dungeons. I want one. With tunnels.

The voice of reason old-skool dungeons grognard monty haul traps rust monster 10 pole

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#41
dan107

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3. Would you still support a mega dungeon if it diverted resources from the main plot/game? My guess is no, but I had to ask.


HELL NO! A game can't be everything to everyone. If you want to make a story driven game, make one, if you want to make a dungeon crawler, make another one. Never mind the fact that these concepts tend to appeal to different people, if you try to do both simultaneously, likely neither one will come out terribly well.

What kind of sense would it make to take a well-paced, narrative driven game and just crowbar a major timesink in the form a mega dungeon right in the middle of it? It's going to kill the pacing, feel out of place, and likely will be too long and boring for people who play for the story and not nearly long enough for people who like dungeon crawlers.

It's a pretty bad idea to begin with, but do all this at the expense of the main plot on top of that? No, no, NO! Might be the worst idea I've seen on this forum thus far.

#42
Spider

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I can't say this topic hasn't come up in meetings. Why don't you guys turn this into a user poll and see if there is serious interest in a mega-dungeon. The things I would be curious about are...

1. How mega is your idea of a mega dungeon? 5 levels?10 levels? 20? More?
2. How important do you think story is in said mega dungeon?
3. Would you still support a mega dungeon if it diverted resources from the main plot/game? My guess is no, but I had to ask.
4. Is this something you would like to see as a high end stretch goal or set of stretch goals?


I am very much in favor of a large dungeon. I think it needs to be completely optional and pretty hard. The end fight of the dungeon should probably be harder than the end fight of the main story, or at least on the same level. Now to answer the questions:

1: Durlag's Tower was awesome and because it was awesome it felt a little short. So I'd say longer than Durlag's Tower for sure. Monte's suggestion of 50% longer seems fair enough.

2: Story is important, in that the dungeon needs a story, a reason to be explored. So it needs lore and a mystery of some sort. it doesn't need a ton of dialogue though if the lore and mystery can be explored through other means. Also it doesn't need to tie in to the main story at all. Although it could, but should be in such a manner that it's still not required to complete or understand the main story.

3: Yes. While I like story and atmosphere in my games, I also like challenges to overcome. So yes, it definitely is something I would like to see prioritized fairly highly.

4: I would like to see it implemented without it being a stretch goal, but if that's not feasible then sure. Personally I think it should come way before stuff like the players house and probably the 7th companion as well. I think it's that important for a successor to BG2 and IWD (torment not so much, but this game claims to follow all three). So if it needs to be a stretch goal, put it in as soon as possible.

#43
Infinitron

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The size of a a dungeon shouldn't be measured in number of "levels". This isn't the 1980's.

Just make it big and long.

Undermountain in Hordes of the Underdark, Durlag's Tower in Baldur's Gate, and Dragon's Eye in Icewind Dale are all excellent examples.

Anything bigger than those (eg, the Stygian Abyss of Ultima Underworld) would probably be outside the scope of this game.

Edited by Infinitron, 21 September 2012 - 02:38 AM.


#44
Entropious

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So, on one hand people want a realistic, believable setting in terms of basic principles, but on the other are advocating for mega-dungeons within a Middle Age society, a nonsensical, illogical construction which would take tens of years just to complete, without any reason whatsoever for doing so.

As George Bush, I ask: remember the pyramids? Entire decades of work to complete? They had tiny undergrounds.

#45
Infinitron

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So, on one hand people want a realistic, believable setting in terms of basic principles


A wizard did it.

#46
Crooked Bee

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I really really like this idea. 10 levels would be perfect, I think. (And you should battle Werdna and a bunch of Vampire Lords at the end. :p)

The size of a a dungeon shouldn't be measured in number of "levels". This isn't the 1980's.


1980s or bust!
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#47
True_Spike

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So, on one hand people want a realistic, believable setting in terms of basic principles, but on the other are advocating for mega-dungeons within a Middle Age society, a nonsensical, illogical construction which would take tens of years just to complete, without any reason whatsoever for doing so.

As George Bush, I ask: remember the pyramids? Entire decades of work to complete? They had tiny undergrounds.


A realistic setting in terms of basic principles? With soul magic? In a fantasy world? Elves, dwarfes, other races and monsters running about and Gods meddling, but a huge dungeon doesn't fit, because it's not...realistic? Realism? Really?

Edited by True_Spike, 21 September 2012 - 02:50 AM.


#48
Infinitron

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I really really like this idea. 10 levels would be perfect, I think. (And you should battle Werdna and a bunch of Vampire Lords at the end. :p)

The size of a a dungeon shouldn't be measured in number of "levels". This isn't the 1980's.


1980s or bust!


Haha, I should have thought of you before posting that. ;)

#49
Entropious

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No, as is "no giant swords" or "small girls with huge boobs and huge eyes" or "shining vampires" or "100 meter walls".

#50
ghostdog

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I can't say this topic hasn't come up in meetings. Why don't you guys turn this into a user poll and see if there is serious interest in a mega-dungeon. The things I would be curious about are...

1. How mega is your idea of a mega dungeon? 5 levels?10 levels? 20? More?
2. How important do you think story is in said mega dungeon?
3. Would you still support a mega dungeon if it diverted resources from the main plot/game? My guess is no, but I had to ask.
4. Is this something you would like to see as a high end stretch goal or set of stretch goals?


I'm thinking Lufia2.

The mega dungeon is 99 levels down.

In order to not upset the game balance, you're stripped of your levels and items and enter the dungeon at level 1.

Story isn't very important, IMO it's best such a dungeon offered different things than the rest of the game. Mainly combat and maybe some good puzzles. A diversion.

Each level is randomly created with random loot. Each level has an exit you can use to go back to your usual adventuring.

The end boss is insanely difficult and if you win you get a very good item which you can use in the outside world, and you gain additional insight about the game's plot.

All experience and items you got in the dungeon are stripped form you and you get back your old ones. You can only keep the end-boss item.

Wouldn't mind a stretch goal.

Edited by ghostdog, 21 September 2012 - 02:55 AM.

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#51
Luckmann

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A mega-dungeon doesn't mean that there's no roleplaying. I personally loved Watcher's Keep in BG2, and that was a fairly substantial dungeon. Hordes of the Underdark was much in the same vein, although I didn't find it nearly as immersive, it was definitely a nice dungeon-styled scenario.

I would love something about twice or thrice the size of Watcher's Keep, done in the same vein, perhaps with more connected, sprawling levels.

#52
Crooked Bee

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Wouldn't mind a stretch goal.


Mmm, a bonus mega-dungeon stretch goal would be real nice.

#53
Luckmann

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So, on one hand people want a realistic, believable setting in terms of basic principles, but on the other are advocating for mega-dungeons within a Middle Age society, a nonsensical, illogical construction which would take tens of years just to complete, without any reason whatsoever for doing so.

A wizard did it.

And the construction doesn't have to be illogical and it's existence doesn't have to be nonsensical. The fact that it could take decades to construct isn't really relevant, especially if you consider the usage of magic and the fact that it could be thousands of years old. And clearly, there should be a reason for creating it.

It could be a prison for an ancient entity. A temple to an Elder God. The creation of an insane magos-Emperor. It could have been under excavation for centuries already, the upper levels teeming with life. It could be a city of the undead.

Edited by Luckmann, 21 September 2012 - 03:05 AM.


#54
Spider

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So, on one hand people want a realistic, believable setting in terms of basic principles, but on the other are advocating for mega-dungeons within a Middle Age society, a nonsensical, illogical construction which would take tens of years just to complete, without any reason whatsoever for doing so.


Not sure people advocating this are the ones who have been asking for a realistic setting in the first place. I sure haven't. An internally consistent and believable setting is another thing entirely. I'm not asking for anything that is completely out of place in the game world, I am asking for something that will increase enjoyment of the game.

If a man-made construct of that size is something that doesn't work in the game world, then fine make it something else. Make it a huge complex of actual dungeons that some cult have inhabited and chiseled out temples and living spaces in. Hell, it can be a dreamscape for all I care.

Wether or not it's underground doesn't matter at all. Watcher's Keep, for instance, has no underground at all and I'm hard pressed to find a world where such a building couldn't exist (if we ignore the inside for a moment) considering our world has similar buildings that predate the medieval times by a fair margin.

Look at Hagia Sophia for instance, or Taj Mahal for a better example, although it was built in the 17th century, I don't think that's too far off the technological level PE will have.

#55
D3xter

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The dwarfs did it.

Anyway yes, I had much fun with the likes of Durlag's Tower or Watcher's Keep provided it does indeed have a backstory and puzzles and is well designed/varied, more than "kill hundreds of enemies" like in some ARPGs e.g. Torchlight/Diablo/Titan Quest where you just kill skeletons in big underground catacombs for the sake of it.

The faction thing where you maybe clear the first 2-3 levels and say dwarfs or whoever open up a base of operations there and give you quests and whatnot and may help you progress further down sounds like a good idea. No shame in making it gradually harder either so you can go do something else and return later during the game to conclude your skull-drilling expedition and fight towards the grand finale.

#56
KhaineGB

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Ooooh... yes please!

Something as big... or bigger... than Watcher's Keep from the BG2 expansion. However, this is something I'd personally like to see added as a stretch goal. The mega-dungeons in BG and BG2 were both expansion packs, so having it as a stretch goal would make a certain amount of sense IMO.

#57
codexer

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I will join the choir and say that I want a large well-designed "dungeon" with inner logic and difficult encounters that is stand-alone from the the main game quest. I'd have no problem if this retracted from the main quest, as I personally think the main quest should be a minority of the game.

#58
Raithe

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A dungeon crawl is basically one large complex (regardless of how it's actually set - underground, in a wizards tower, wahtever) to explore, fight the monsters and pick up loot.. They can be fun when paced right, but they really need a good atmosphere and some consistent story behind them.

If it's just there for the sake of it, it's a meaningless grind for loot n xp. But with some form of backstory of why it's there, how it's been turned into a "dungeon" as it were, and a good reason for why you've decided/needed to go wandering through it.. The atmosphere builds on that.

Not everybody gets their kicks from a dungeon (not all kinks are the same..) so if you do make it a "mega-dungeon" it really needs to be non-mandatory rather then an integral party of the story that has to be done.

Personally, I need to be in the right mood to enjoy a dungeon crawl experience. So while I would say it's always good to put in a mega-dungeon if it has a good, consistent story logic to it... I wouldn't want to see too many resources pulled away from the main story and gameplay. It is a really nice throwback to the classic adventuring so it's going to touch that inner-gamer, but it needs to be balanced.
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#59
OldRPG'sAreGood

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I don't think that a mega dungeon would have to be completely apart from the story, for example the first level of the dungeon could contain something relevant to the story, but the rest would be optional. This way the dungeon would have "a point" to be there, apart from being a treasure cache and an adventure on it's own regard.

#60
Metabot

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I wouldn't mind some ancient labyrinth or something. It should have some very difficult puzzles and hard to find secret passages, etc.





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