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Mega-dungeons. I want one. With tunnels.

The voice of reason old-skool dungeons grognard monty haul traps rust monster 10 pole

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#21
LadySpace

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It doesn't look like this is going to transform into a poll yet, so I'll just add my voice to the booming chorus and say that YES a massive dungeon would be FANTASTIC.

That said, if the rest of the game is shaping up in such a way that a mega-dungeon would be out of place or an unnecessary strain on resources, then don't worry about it. Quality first.

#22
Oerwinde

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I can't say this topic hasn't come up in meetings. Why don't you guys turn this into a user poll and see if there is serious interest in a mega-dungeon. The things I would be curious about are...

1. How mega is your idea of a mega dungeon? 5 levels?10 levels? 20? More?
2. How important do you think story is in said mega dungeon?
3. Would you still support a mega dungeon if it diverted resources from the main plot/game? My guess is no, but I had to ask.
4. Is this something you would like to see as a high end stretch goal or set of stretch goals?


If it was something like Dorns Deep (upper an lower combined), something that was a little more interesting than a simple dungeon, but with the same level of history and story woven into it, I'd be all over that. Especially if the reward is something more than just epic treasure. If it was like a quest to clear the dungeon out so a faction could take up residence (Mithril Hall style), and the result is a new faction that gives out missions (possibly related to rebuilding said dungeon) and such, that would be kickass.

#23
True_Spike

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I can't say this topic hasn't come up in meetings. Why don't you guys turn this into a user poll and see if there is serious interest in a mega-dungeon. The things I would be curious about are...

1. How mega is your idea of a mega dungeon? 5 levels?10 levels? 20? More?
2. How important do you think story is in said mega dungeon?
3. Would you still support a mega dungeon if it diverted resources from the main plot/game? My guess is no, but I had to ask.
4. Is this something you would like to see as a high end stretch goal or set of stretch goals?


1. I'd say twice the size of the Watcher's Keep in BG2. It would be swell if you could combine a smiliar level design to WK (where every next level was just something completely different), but at the same time maintain a focused story, much like it was in Durlag's Tower (with a few smaller storylines in-between).

2. It is crucial. The mega dungeon only adds to the feel and the atmosphere of the plot, but in a way that is hard to replicate in a different setting. The feeling of impending doom, a long-forgotten mystery, the curiosity that drives you to go deeper and uncover more of its secrets - that's what I associate with a WK / DT-like level.

3. No.

4. OH YES. A set of stretch goals - one big, that sort of concentrates on creating it and a bunch of smaller ones (additions to bigger stretch goals?) that expand it further in every dimension.

Edited by True_Spike, 20 September 2012 - 11:45 PM.

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#24
eimatshya

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Sorry, but I'm not a huge fan of dungeon crawling. It can be fun in pen and paper games or MMOs because you are doing it with other people, but in a single player game I find it to be pretty dull. Even with diablo's great atmosphere, I was only able to get about as far as the Butcher before I got bored and quit. A 10 or 20 level dungeon would probably be shear drudgery for me, and I'm not sure I would be able to get through it, even if it meant not being able to continue with the rest of the game. If it was an optional dungeon like the one from Tales of the Sword Coast, then I guess it wouldn't be an issue since I could skip it, but I still would prefer to have development resources spent on other things. I'd rather have fewer fights but have them be unique, challenging, and memorable.

#25
curryinahurry

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Yes to a megadungeon in the IWD Dragon's Eye style or a larger version of Watcher's Keep (2x at least). Maybe as a stretch goal, but this is a lot of what I personally miss in recent CRPGs

#26
salty

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1. Mega
2. Not very
3. No
4. Sure

#27
septembervirgin

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There should be a mega-dungeon. I think it's a delightful idea -- perhaps one that spans under the entire region represented in the game. I didn't like the way the "Deep Roads" don't let one travel throughout Ferelden. Try hiring someone who can draw extensive maps and who is familiar with the concept that monsters are a biosphere.

The one problem is I'm not sure how much time they'll have to get monsters. Sure, this might be a retro-style game but there should be variety in a labyrinth as sizable as we'd like, variety in monsters, variety in architecture. And it shouldn't be the central focus of the game. They can afford to hire a bunch of people with the millions they'll be getting, but millions doesn't mean they get the Dalai Lama to help with graphics.

Also they'd need a really cool idea for how the dungeons got there. It can't be the Deep Roads although a devastated subterranean civilization is an idea at least as old as the real-world Garamantes of the Sahara. It can't be a mob of souls that think they're a dungeon; Final Fantasy XII fans would laugh at us. And if it's a mad wizard, we're all going to spit up our milk. Ancient sewers? Couldn't be. Train tunnels is one idea. Another idea might be that it's the land of the gods, which might be more unique than most dungeon concepts, albeit mythology holds chthonic deities aplenty and there's some evidence (nay, rumors) of ancient TIbetan temples dug into the mountains themselves (and I'm not describing Aghartha nor Shambhala). The Beijing Anomaly is suggestive at underground oceans teeming with strange life and perhaps islands.

I don't think I've ever seen an intrinsically overland computer game with an impressive dungeon system ever. I have hope there would be need for ropes, as the OP stated, lanterns, water, food, pet mice on twine leashes, dolls, iron spikes and heavy mallets, adhesive locks (to affix to a door for aesthetic reasons), tents, etc. Of course, all of this could be portrayed as it being assumed the players have the basic materials for survival. Yes, it wouldn't be as fun as a tabletop game when no one remembers to bring a ten foot pole with them. We must remember that many players won't *want* to laden themselves with nifty survival gear. Also, what's the use when there's walkthroughs and play guides? We must remember that if a puzzle or test is to remain interesting it must also be fun. So maybe we won't have numerous creative solutions for crossing a deep ravine or fording an underground river (or sailing down it).

My hope is for a massive, fascinating game that all will adore. Let's hope for the best for Obsidian and ourselves!

#28
Cantousent

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The problem that I see is a shadow game, where there's such a large dungeon complex that goes to the same areas and one overland which does the same things. I woulnd't want to see the devs committ so many resournces to two different areas that serve the same purpose only to find that half the players go one way and half go the other. Don't get me wrong, it's awesome to hav the replayabilty, but the time and effort would be a shame to waste on something that, by definition, half of the first time players would never see. IF they can do it so that folks see a significant part of both, that coudl be good.

#29
OldRPG'sAreGood

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A big, dark, challenging dungeon? YES please. With treasure, lots of juicy, shiny treasure! Or not... what kind of surprise it would bring when the adventuring party has cleaved it's way through hordes of monsters and traps just to find out that they were chasing an exaggerated legend.

Also if the dungeon has a tip top story within it to be found, I'll probably never leave the damn structure. I'll stay in it's depths, rolling in it's treasure, wether it's gold or knowledge.

So to sum it up, a big, well written dungeon is most welcome.

#30
Moonlight Butterfly

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I can't say this topic hasn't come up in meetings. Why don't you guys turn this into a user poll and see if there is serious interest in a mega-dungeon. The things I would be curious about are...

1. How mega is your idea of a mega dungeon? 5 levels?10 levels? 20? More?
2. How important do you think story is in said mega dungeon?
3. Would you still support a mega dungeon if it diverted resources from the main plot/game? My guess is no, but I had to ask.
4. Is this something you would like to see as a high end stretch goal or set of stretch goals?


I would adore a huge dungeon.

1. Ten levels would be great with some meaty content and frightening monsters on each level. An important creature at the bottom like a Dragon would be great.

2. Story is very important to me. Perhaps even link it to the lore of the soul magic, maybe there is a kind of 'soul well' the dragon is guarding half way down where the purgatory that Sawyer mentions breaks through to our realm. We then continue the mega dungeon in the 'soul purgatory' gaining lore and advice from those in limbo and dealing with strange creatures that dwell there.

3. I don't want it to draw too heavily from resources but since it will provide a lot of gameplay in itself then I don't think it will be so harmful to the game.

4 It would be a nice stretch goal to have and may encourage some people to pledge more. :)

Edited by Moonlight Butterfly, 21 September 2012 - 12:42 AM.


#31
HoonDing

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I support this if this megadungeon features at least one GELATINOUS CUBE.
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#32
curryinahurry

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Was it Ruins of Undermountain that spanned 3 modules? If there is some spanning underground system it could be uncovered over several games (we all hope this first adventure spawns sequels) as a sort of Undermountian meets Deep Roads. For now I think one massive, 15 hour dungeon would be great on its own.

#33
Loki Ador

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I do not like big dungeons. To be honest, that is why BG2 sadly put me off a bit (really sadly because it was such a great game otherwise)

BUT I can understand gamers (especially old school gamers) to want one, as it is part of the genre

So having one big mega dungeon, with traps, tunnels, corridors, doors, monsters, treasures, the kind of dungeon that goes ever deeper and ever harder, why not. Maybe it could be optionnal, i.e. there is a way to avoid it althoug either it adds some good flavor to the storyline, or it is actually related to a big juicy side quest (the kind of quest that are close to being as memorable as the main one).

#34
Gibbscape_Torment

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Only if it's optional. If they make it a necessary plot progressor, i'll probably quit halfway through.

#35
andreisiadi

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It can't be optional. If it's optional you can't put good loot in it thus negating the whole point.

So mandatory and about 150% of Watcher's Keep. Stretch goal would be good.

But again the loot must be good and the fights really hard. No resting unless level clear. Once you enter the next level you can't go back unless new level also clear.

#36
Tuco Benedicto

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I'm all for mega-dungeons (plural), especially if they are cleverly designed: interesting to explore, filled with puzzles, challenging, rewarding.
If they must be just some sort of time sink where you grind tons of monsters walking through corridors (i.e. Deep Roads) they can go **** themselves.
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#37
Piccolo

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I'm in favour of having fewer, but really long and complex dungeons... as opposed to tons of small ones everywhere.

Basically, I don't want to be dipping in and out of dungeons all the time (to the point where it just feels like filler content), but when I do delve into a dungeon, it should feel like an epic journey.

Edited by Piccolo, 21 September 2012 - 01:54 AM.


#38
Volourn

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"1. How mega is your idea of a mega dungeon? 5 levels?10 levels? 20? More?"

Depends how big the levels are. But, big. Think WK and DT big.


"2. How important do you think story is in said mega dungeon?"

Very important. Story and atmosphere 9along with encounters and exploration) are what make dungeons awesome. See Wk and figuring out why it was build in the first place.


"3. Would you still support a mega dungeon if it diverted resources from the main plot/game? My guess is no, but I had to ask."

Sure as long as the story still makes sense.


"4. Is this something you would like to see as a high end stretch goal or set of stretch goals? "

Fit it where you can.


"It can't be optional. If it's optional you can't put good loot in it thus negating the whole point."

That's silly. Some of the best loot ever found in games are found in optional areas. It gives players more incentive to explore.

"So mandatory and about 150% of Watcher's Keep. Stretch goal would be good."

Not mandatory.

"But again the loot must be good and the fights really hard."

True dat.


"No resting unless level clear. Once you enter the next level you can't go back unless new level also clear. "

This is illogical.

#39
Magnum Opus

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Dungeons in recent games have become rather pointless affairs for me, because they amount to no more than caves. And not the long, labyrinthine caves, either... am talking more wolf-den kind of things. That's one of the reasons I was one of the very few (apparently, judging by the BSN commentary, anyway) who appreciated the Deep Roads in Dragon Age Origins. Too Long! they cried. Too Hard! they screamed. Well, it's the Deep freakin' Roads, of all places! A place of nightmares for surface dwellers, of deep secrets and certain death. It ain't supposed to be a walk in the park... and it wasn't. Was one of the only places where the lore of the place actually matched up with the area design.

That was good.

Durlag's Tower had the same harmony between story (lore/backstory) and area design/atmosphere. So did the Severed Hand. So did Dragon's Eye. So did the Luremaster's Castle. All of those dungeons remain to this day as some of the best and most satisfying moments in gaming I've had over the years. They were big, they were challenging, they were atmospheric, and actually finding the way out was itself something of an accomplishment.

Games need more dungeons.

Edited by Magnum Opus, 21 September 2012 - 01:55 AM.


#40
Loki Ador

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It must be optional.

I am perfectly OK with ressources being used on this, as, once again, it is part of the genre.

But, this game must not be an IE-like version of Temple of Elemental Evil, or, worse, a new Diablo II. That is not what BG or Planescape Torment were about.

Let us make this dungeon something important. Some legendary place every adventurer dreams of exploring without daring to. The kind of exploit the PC can boast about after completing it. With a good side quest attached.

Just leave a way to avoid it (either by giving it its own questline, or by making it possible to only explore part of it before resuming the main quest). This way dungeon crawlers may enjoy in it, while others (as I am), can avoid something they consider tedious and not fun.





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