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Gods in Eternity

gods mythology

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#61
PsychoBlonde

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Are you implying that if, for instance, the Christian god, I am that I am or whatever, would actually appear for real in a public place and start announcing commandments that people would become less religious? Surely not. Believing in a proven God who has actually shown himself is still believing in him.


Certainly. Such a being would probably not even be able to convince a sizeable number of people that it was, in fact, God.

This is also the reason why, the more religious someone is, the fewer defined attributes their deity has, turning from specific descriptions like "Zeus hurls the thunderbolts from the sky!" to "God is omniscient!" which is about as non-specific as you can get. The pagans were fairly secular in their outlook even though they had gods everywhere, heck, their GODS were worldly and spent a large part of the time drinking, feasting, and screwing anything that moved.
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#62
Domigorgon

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Not that there's anything wrong with that. :D

#63
Kurumi Morishita

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Just two things..

1. I don't want an overgod aka AO!
2. Please add some kind of sylvan/nature god!

About the Pantheon itself, I really don't care if it's like the D&D or Olympian or Pharaonic or Asgardian or ... Pantheon.
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#64
Tsuga C

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My preference is for gods that are truly divine and beyond the reach of mortals. Maybe a mortal might ascend to demi-god status and become a powerful champion of their deity and exemplar of their faith, but true godhood should be reserved for the divine powers. Let there be tricksters and gods of death, war, art, love, etc., and let them command a high level of majesty and puissance that lets one and all know beyond any doubt that they worthy of worship, or at least of placation.

The divine should not be a joke and needs to be taken seriously by the peoples of the world, albeit to a greater or lesser degree dpending upon the individual in question.

#65
AGX-17

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I've always like Taoism's focus on balance and harmony, so I've always thought the idea of two deities representing two opposites that complement and balance each other out interesting (similar to the yin and yang representing the opposite aspects of the world which together form the united whole: yin represents femininity and darkness, among other things, while yang represents masculinity and light, also among other things,) especially because life in the real world really hinges on balance.

I'd imagine obsequious zealots of one half of the unified duology opposing the other half, i.e. overzealous followers of a god of light and the sun might hate the goddess of night and the moon (for the night is dark and full of terrors, as the Red Woman would say,) without recognizing the need for balance, as eternal day would scorch the world sterile, just as an eternal night would freeze it; but with the caveat that what can be frozen can be thawed, reflecting the female capacity to bring about new life (look up parthenogenesis if you think a male is mandatory for this.) Some casual observers of Taoism see the female association with darkness as a form of misogyny, but they overlook the necessity of night to balance temperature, and that there are nocturnal animals who depend on the protection of darkness to survive (our own mammalian ancestors among them.) There are animals that can survive being frozen solid, but there are none that can survive being burned to ashes.

Are you implying that if, for instance, the Christian god, I am that I am or whatever, would actually appear for real in a public place and start announcing commandments that people would become less religious? Surely not. Believing in a proven God who has actually shown himself is still believing in him.


Certainly. Such a being would probably not even be able to convince a sizeable number of people that it was, in fact, God.

This is also the reason why, the more religious someone is, the fewer defined attributes their deity has, turning from specific descriptions like "Zeus hurls the thunderbolts from the sky!" to "God is omniscient!" which is about as non-specific as you can get. The pagans were fairly secular in their outlook even though they had gods everywhere, heck, their GODS were worldly and spent a large part of the time drinking, feasting, and screwing anything that moved.


"The pagans (latin root paganus, meaning 'country dweller' - it only came to mean 'non-christian' once Christianity became the dominant religion of Europe,)" weren't a single cohesive group, and different cultures had different pantheons, different rituals and differing levels of devotion. Some cultures had priestly classes, others didn't. The ancient Britons who erected stone circles (Stonehenge simply being the largest of them,) obviously didn't have that secular an outlook on life, considering they also put a great deal of effort into the tombs of their dead (or at least their honored/high ranked dead.) Throughout the Americas, you see "pagan" religions building grandiose monuments for religious reasons. Direct contact with the Aztecs confirms a priestly class and pyramids devoted to religion, religious beliefs fervent enough that they justified human sacrifices (a common thread in the religions of all the Mesoamerican and South American civilizations,) the translation of the Maya language led to the understanding that these were also a deeply religious people. The Nazca Lines serve no reasonably imaginable secular purpose, the Moche civilization seems to have revolved around a religion of death and human sacrifice.


At any rate, if a monotheistic religion's one true God did appear before humanity to prove his own existence (which he wouldn't do because gods don't exist,) I think he could easily prove himself by just killing half the world's population in an instant, leave them dead for a sufficient period of time (several days or even a week,) that their loved ones could no longer reasonably believe it was merely a big prank, then resurrect them. Or turn them into pillars of salt. Or even just make everyone have faith in him, free will be damned. How does anyone argue that he's not god once they're filled with overflowing zealous faith?

Edited by AGX-17, 06 December 2012 - 05:58 PM.


#66
Mr. Magniloquent

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The most important concept is to decide upon is whether deities are derived from mortals or visa versa. I personally prefer deities being secondary to mortals.

A different take, with soul-centric philosophy would feel something like this:
  • The cosmos predate deities.
  • Gods should be incomprehensibly powerful, but exist within the framework of the cosomos--not above or outside of it.
  • Being derived from souls, gods should only exist for things which have souls. IE: Only gods for living things--not gods with an explicit portfolio of Storms or Fire.
  • A diety should embody only the innate aspects of the sentience they are derived from. War, Invention, Healing are not part of sentient beings--they are products of their qualities. Anger, Curiousity, Love, Ambivalence--these are the things which make a soul/mind.
This is the only way I can think of truly distinguishing P:E pantheons apart from every other mythos ever created. Life begets souls, souls beget deities, deities beget life.

Edited by Mr. Magniloquent, 06 December 2012 - 07:27 PM.


#67
Corvus Metus

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My two cents.

The cosmos itself should be sentient, although not necessarily sapient. It is the source of all things.

The gods, however, should not truly exist. Instead, they are echoes of mankind's beliefs given a spark of life by the cosmos. They are manifestations of what man believes is true. They can die and be reborn as people change their ideals.

Bare bones, but that's my ideas.

#68
Tsuga C

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One wonders what sort of interactions we'll have with the Powers.  Will we experience their will and influence only through their clerical orders, semi-divine intermediaries, or will the possibility of direct interactions present itself? 



#69
Sarky

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Steven Erikson's Malazan books had the most believable deities I've ever read. They should be more than just eleventy thousand extra hit points and 10 of every spell. They should be beyond mortal in every way. Their plans take centuries to unfold, and make little or no sense to mortals. Some of them have no plans at all and just wander the worlds looking for excitement or mischief. Some of them have total mastery over a certain aspect of reality, while being powerless in others, or even weak to some material/word/emotion. Most of all, they're kinda bored. Living for eternity can only make you jaded and cynical. You really have seen it all before.

 

I'd really like to see some gods like that. Presumably the events of the game are the first really interesting thing they've seen in millennia. That should get them interested in the things the player gets up to and the choices he/she makes. Surely they'd want to influence the outcome, but how does a being which transcends mortal comprehension make itself understood?


Edited by Sarky, 18 January 2013 - 06:54 PM.

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#70
Luridis

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I don't have any preference for what the developers choose to do in PE... But, I do have a related question for the participants here.

 

What if you stared a new RPG and there were no gods to be heard of? And, in fact, upon further investigation you discover that the mere mention of the deities in conversation with NPCs was viewed as silly & nonsensical superstition? Finally, when you find someone who manages to stop pointing at you and laughing over your own talk of black cats and broken mirrors; the person casually mentions that genuine "worship" was outlawed in most places thousands of years in the past?

 

Kind of interesting, I think...



#71
Cryticus

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I don't have any preference for what the developers choose to do in PE... But, I do have a related question for the participants here.

 

What if you stared a new RPG and there were no gods to be heard of? And, in fact, upon further investigation you discover that the mere mention of the deities in conversation with NPCs was viewed as silly & nonsensical superstition? Finally, when you find someone who manages to stop pointing at you and laughing over your own talk of black cats and broken mirrors; the person casually mentions that genuine "worship" was outlawed in most places thousands of years in the past?

 

Kind of interesting, I think...

Soo... Basicly Crusader Atheist wishfullfilment : the game ?


Edited by Cryticus, 19 January 2013 - 04:10 AM.

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#72
Luridis

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I don't have any preference for what the developers choose to do in PE... But, I do have a related question for the participants here.

 

What if you stared a new RPG and there were no gods to be heard of? And, in fact, upon further investigation you discover that the mere mention of the deities in conversation with NPCs was viewed as silly & nonsensical superstition? Finally, when you find someone who manages to stop pointing at you and laughing over your own talk of black cats and broken mirrors; the person casually mentions that genuine "worship" was outlawed in most places thousands of years in the past?

 

Kind of interesting, I think...

Soo... Basicly Crusader Atheist wishfullfilment : the game ?

 

No, basically was the central plot a module for NWN1 that I started, but never got around to finishing in 2003ish.



#73
Aenor

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Gods in style of D&D would help to make project eternity to a complete rpg, but they should have more sense/ usefulness.



#74
CottonWolf

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Steven Erikson's Malazan books had the most believable deities I've ever read. They should be more than just eleventy thousand extra hit points and 10 of every spell. They should be beyond mortal in every way. Their plans take centuries to unfold, and make little or no sense to mortals. Some of them have no plans at all and just wander the worlds looking for excitement or mischief. Some of them have total mastery over a certain aspect of reality, while being powerless in others, or even weak to some material/word/emotion. Most of all, they're kinda bored. Living for eternity can only make you jaded and cynical. You really have seen it all before.

 

I'd really like to see some gods like that. Presumably the events of the game are the first really interesting thing they've seen in millennia. That should get them interested in the things the player gets up to and the choices he/she makes. Surely they'd want to influence the outcome, but how does a being which transcends mortal comprehension make itself understood?

 

Yeah, I'd love some Malazan style gods/goddesses. Preferably some totally crazy stuff as well though, like worshipping the luminiferous aether or something (though I guess that moves dangerously close to the realm of druidry).



#75
Osvir

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Could Gods interrupt/interfere with mechanics somehow?

For example, if you'd try to pickpocket an entire town, a God of Shadows could come in and wave "its" finger "No no". If Gods could fulfill such a use, it could both be fairly (and magically) reasonable for the developers to design "restrictions" that'd be content by itself. In Journey, there is such a mechanic, when you try to walk outside the screen you get pushed back by this invisible wind. Many gamers don't mind it, and is immersed by its feature. Kind of like that, but with Gods  :brows: 

If you Rest all the time, you end up in the Realm of Dreams or something, transcending into spiritual form (and it wouldn't be a nice place to be at because, presumably, a God could've sent you into a trap).

Saving and reloading too much could send your character into a Doctor Who loop, meeting or seeing yourself as you moved before as a "Ghost", before you reloaded. It doesn't necessarily have to happen all the time, but Gods could function in "random encounter" scenarios and "restrictive" scenarios such as the Pickpocket scenario.

For example, imagine a God being annoying towards you, obstructing you on your path, so you decide to go after it and take it down. You take it down and take a breather, no more annoyance. Likewise, you could've thought you took down the God, but in fact you took down another one, manipulated by the first one to take out the other one.


Edited by Osvir, 20 January 2013 - 07:38 AM.


#76
DreamingVoid

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Could Gods interrupt/interfere with mechanics somehow?

For example, if you'd try to pickpocket an entire town, a God of Shadows could come in and wave "its" finger "No no". If Gods could fulfill such a use, it could both be fairly (and magically) reasonable for the developers to design "restrictions" that'd be content by itself. In Journey, there is such a mechanic, when you try to walk outside the screen you get pushed back by this invisible wind. Many gamers don't mind it, and is immersed by its feature. Kind of like that, but with Gods  :brows: 

If you Rest all the time, you end up in the Realm of Dreams or something, transcending into spiritual form (and it wouldn't be a nice place to be at because, presumably, a God could've sent you into a trap).

Saving and reloading too much could send your character into a Doctor Who loop, meeting or seeing yourself as you moved before as a "Ghost", before you reloaded. It doesn't necessarily have to happen all the time, but Gods could function in "random encounter" scenarios and "restrictive" scenarios such as the Pickpocket scenario.

For example, imagine a God being annoying towards you, obstructing you on your path, so you decide to go after it and take it down. You take it down and take a breather, no more annoyance. Likewise, you could've thought you took down the God, but in fact you took down another one, manipulated by the first one to take out the other one.

 

What is it with you and punishing players?


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#77
evilmiera

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I'd rather the worship of gods either be entirely ambiguous, with no clear result shown from worship, or entirely absent gods with clerical magic, possession/avatars and "miracles" just being another aspect of already existing spells that requires a more personal involvement from the user.



#78
Osvir

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Could Gods interrupt/interfere with mechanics somehow?

For example, if you'd try to pickpocket an entire town, a God of Shadows could come in and wave "its" finger "No no". If Gods could fulfill such a use, it could both be fairly (and magically) reasonable for the developers to design "restrictions" that'd be content by itself. In Journey, there is such a mechanic, when you try to walk outside the screen you get pushed back by this invisible wind. Many gamers don't mind it, and is immersed by its feature. Kind of like that, but with Gods  :brows: 

If you Rest all the time, you end up in the Realm of Dreams or something, transcending into spiritual form (and it wouldn't be a nice place to be at because, presumably, a God could've sent you into a trap).

Saving and reloading too much could send your character into a Doctor Who loop, meeting or seeing yourself as you moved before as a "Ghost", before you reloaded. It doesn't necessarily have to happen all the time, but Gods could function in "random encounter" scenarios and "restrictive" scenarios such as the Pickpocket scenario.

For example, imagine a God being annoying towards you, obstructing you on your path, so you decide to go after it and take it down. You take it down and take a breather, no more annoyance. Likewise, you could've thought you took down the God, but in fact you took down another one, manipulated by the first one to take out the other one.

 

What is it with you and punishing players?


Lol, no, not punishing players. Content and consequence.

Rob a city blind, possible yes, but shouldn't the townsfolk at least raise an eyebrow? City Officials reacting? Ciphers or Wizards sent out to investigate? (To find you!) Finally, a God of Greed. Sounds like a Quest tree to me than a punishment ;)

Similarly, you save a lot and you reload a lot. But one time you reload, everything looks the same but a shadow of yourself walking in front of you is seen, and you realize you're stuck in a trap! Sounds like Content to me.

Resting a lot, pop, you're in Dreamland (As if!). Nightmare Souls haunting you and you have to get out: Content.

Perhaps Gods are reflections of your actions, and you manifest different Gods depending on your actions (looting an entire town = manifests the God of Greed). Slaying every single enemy = manifests the God of War. Non-lethal = God of Shadows etc. etc.



#79
Luridis

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Lol, no, not punishing players. Content and consequence.

Rob a city blind, possible yes, but shouldn't the townsfolk at least raise an eyebrow? City Officials reacting? Ciphers or Wizards sent out to investigate? (To find you!) Finally, a God of Greed. Sounds like a Quest tree to me than a punishment ;)


There can already be consequences for those sorts of things and they indeed exist in multiple games already. i.e. get caught picking pockets or locks and the guards haul you in. Sometimes assassins are sent in some cases. Resting too much can bring random encounters in some games.

Why would a 'god' bother with something the town guard should be handling? After all, they tend to be arrogant and self-serving even when supposedly 'good' in nature. I mean, do you really want your character to be so important that entire pantheons are chasing at their heels just to see what they do next? Are they gods or paparazzi?

Edited by Luridis, 21 January 2013 - 02:21 PM.


#80
Osvir

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I want my character to be important enough that if I take something to the extreme, and P:E has Gods, it should warrant attention.

Likewise, the "Doctor Who" loop doesn't necessarily have to be "in mechanic on Saving+Reloading" I just thought it would fit best there as that is what you are physically doing yourself. Being teleported back and forth between time, not as a punishment, but as a challenge you get to figure out. Not "You are stuck here". Similarly, Resting all the time, entering a dream world. Can't really say that, that can fit anywhere but in Resting.

An interactive dream sequence, instead of "Gorion has the father talk" with you. I loved those cut-scenes, but it would be awesome to interact in some of them as well. Baldur's Gate 2 has even more, I've only seen pretty much the first one I think (Candlekeep is in ruins and Imoen is apathetic).

Being an "interesting" character in the world, as I suppose the main character will be, Gods would take notice if you single handed took yourself to the top (or with the help of some companion characters).

Another thing I am curious about:
Will a character be able to challenge Gods? Will a character be able to overcome the hellfire a God could be?







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