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Caligula Dances

Will a Fixed viewpoint be damaging to the immersion? also amount of combat.

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stuff

 

i think you can expect the amount of immersion to be similar to that found in baldurs gate or fallout.


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I am excited hearing about obsidian making a new game but please dont be fixated on a viewpoint like isometric, theres been a general advancement , a evolution if you will in gaming to more of ,a modern approach

You're right, stupid Obsidian should not use a fixed isometric camera (with minimal zooming), because modern games don't use this perspective anymore!

 

diablo3-3.jpg

 

Look at this stupid old game, it's called Diablo III it came out years ago, 2012 to be exact!

 

...Wait, wtf? 2012?


:closed:

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Caligula,

 

Maybe you should reread the Kickstarter page. If you haven't played any of the games this IP is paying homage to, GOG is having sale I think on some, so you could pick up at least one and try it. They really are great fun and very well written. I don't think you would be disappointed.

 

They are different, but excellent. Many of us have waited over 10 years to play another similar game which is why people are so excited and don't want anything "modernized", myself included.

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For the record, I really dislike the first person perspective for roleplaying games. I played FO3 exclusively with the third-person camera.

Immersion is important.

But on its own, it's not a useful goal. What is it about the game that makes it immersive? People should ask for that.

 

Just saying "immersion" is about as informative as personal ads that say "I like having fun." Well of course you do; everyone likes having fun. But what constitutes fun differs from person to person.

 

Similarly, all players may not find all of the same features immersive, so simply asking for immersion is pointless.

Edited by Sylvius the Mad

God used to be my co-pilot, but then we crashed in the Andes and I had to eat him.

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For the record, I really dislike the first person perspective for roleplaying games. I played FO3 exclusively with the third-person camera.

Immersion is important.

But on it's own, it's not a useful goal. What is it about the game that makes it immersive - people hould ask for that.

 

Well, I myself value atmosphere, consistent rule systems and gameplay/story integration above most everything when it comes to immersion. But not any specific design decision or game mechanic, rather how everything comes together. Holistic design and all that.

 

I do not believe that either the first person or the top down perspective is inherently better than the other, but I can certainly list moments (games) where I liked each one.

Edited by Delterius
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Perhaps you are right SqueakyCat, i do recall enjoying Icewind dale 2 years ago and I have (vague'ish) memories of being immersed playing Planescape Torment for a while with its very rich setting, and thinking more about it, those sort of isometric style games did seem to me to just ...die (unless you count neverwinter nights and diablo 3) so even if it seems like a 'throwback' to that era of gaming to someone like me who much preffered the absorbing 1st person view it wont matter because obsidian will deliver a excellent game anyway.

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This whole 'immersion' thing needs to go.

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Why has elegance found so little following? Elegance has the disadvantage that hard work is needed to achieve it and a good education to appreciate it. - Edsger Wybe Dijkstra

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(unless you count neverwinter nights and diablo 3)

 

If you discount games where there's a feature, sure that feature's dead. And those aren't even every example where top down view was important.

 

I for one, believe that FPSs are a dead genre. Haven't played one in years.

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Keep the personal insults out guys.

 

Feargus put it very well in one of the Kickstarter interviews; the reason the games in the tradition of IE died out has very little to do with their failure to sell, or some kind of 'inherent' inferiority. A lot of it came down to a very specific corporate problem and chain of events at Interplay, licensing problems that pretty much killed two of the biggest isometric projects in the middle of the decade, etc.

 

The pitch behind Eternity is that it's not a simple homage to a type of game that died out because it was clearly obsolete, it is making the kind of game many people have loved and have never stopped appreciating, by moving past the situational problems like publishers and licensing.

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"This game is for us who miss the old IE games and yes, that means fixed isometric camera. They were very up front about this in the kickstarter video and if they weren't I'm not so sure I would have pledged."

 

Not just for those that miss the old IE games, but for the ones that also missed the IE games. now when people look at these great rpgs and think "i'd love to try this as they are so highly rated" but ultimately don't due to the low resolution now. This game will bring back the epic IE game sand make them much more sharper presentation wise. I think this game will show that these games really are still wanted.

 

But yeah it is annoying actually when people say they dont want it to be isometric. do they also post about upcomign football games saying they want it to be a racer not a football game?? it is what it is and it will always be what it is... because.. that's what it is!

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Perhaps you are right SqueakyCat, i do recall enjoying Icewind dale 2 years ago and I have (vague'ish) memories of being immersed playing Planescape Torment for a while with its very rich setting, and thinking more about it, those sort of isometric style games did seem to me to just ...die (unless you count neverwinter nights and diablo 3) so even if it seems like a 'throwback' to that era of gaming to someone like me who much preffered the absorbing 1st person view it wont matter because obsidian will deliver a excellent game anyway.

 

Depending on the game, the modding community has been very active and there are lots of mods for widescreen, etc. Just do a search and you should be able to locate mods for any of those games you're interested in. Also, there's a new enhanced version of BG1 coming out soon which will have better graphics and support modern resolutions, so that may also be an alternative for you.

Edited by SqueakyCat
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You should read that.

 

Then you maybe can understand that viewpoint is not the only thing that creates immersion. Heavily narrative games like this will be, the narrative immersion is much more important. Also tactical and strategic immersion play large role, but spatial immersion is probably lower than what it would be in fp game, those who loved IE engine games and want game like them, probably don't care so much about spatial immersion than those other immersions.

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This whole immersion thing is complete utter bull****. It is an opinion not a fact that you get more immersed in a game if it has first person perspective and real-time action combat. I get much more immersed in a game if it's text heavy and has rather abstract combat system. For example in Fallout, I shoot an enemy and get a gritty description of what is happening to me, because of that combat feels real to me because I know that I shot him and he dodged the bullet or was hit and the description reflects that. On the other hand in New Vegas I run up to the enemy shoot him in the head, I clearly see that he got shot right in his face, but nothing is happening to him. This is immersion breaking for me. And using firs person perspective is a choice not an evolution.

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Not just for those that miss the old IE games, but for the ones that also missed the IE games. now when people look at these great rpgs and think "i'd love to try this as they are so highly rated" but ultimately don't due to the low resolution now. This game will bring back the epic IE game sand make them much more sharper presentation wise. I think this game will show that these games really are still wanted.

 

You can actually experience the IE games in higher resolutions. GoG actually has a guide on their website for Planescape: Torment. And the resolution mod, I believe, works on all IE games. I say this as someone that played through BG1 & 2 for the first time a couple years ago. That's definitely something to spread around to anyone wanting to experience the games for the first time, or even just play through them again in a higher resolution. Definitely something to do if you're trying to stave off Project Eternity hunger pangs.

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Not just for those that miss the old IE games, but for the ones that also missed the IE games. now when people look at these great rpgs and think "i'd love to try this as they are so highly rated" but ultimately don't due to the low resolution now. This game will bring back the epic IE game sand make them much more sharper presentation wise. I think this game will show that these games really are still wanted.

 

You can actually experience the IE games in higher resolutions. GoG actually has a guide on their website for Planescape: Torment. And the resolution mod, I believe, works on all IE games. I say this as someone that played through BG1 & 2 for the first time a couple years ago. That's definitely something to spread around to anyone wanting to experience the games for the first time, or even just play through them again in a higher resolution. Definitely something to do if you're trying to stave off Project Eternity hunger pangs.

 

This is indeed correct. I set up Baldur's Gate on my PC a year ago and installed the widescreen mod on it. Started playing it due to the enhanced editions delay.

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This discussion is pointless because it's clear that this game will have a traditional IE-like 3rd person (axonometric) perspective which may or may not have a zooming feature (I hope it does).

 

Having said that I would like to defend the first person perspective. The fact that Bethesda and EABioware-2 make awful games with first person perspectives does not mean that such a perspective is inherently bad. Their games would have been just as bad if they had been isometric. For games with a single character and no party members first person perspective can actually be quite nice if done well. Think of Ultima Underworld, Arx Fatalis. It even somewhat worked in the later Might and Magic games, despite the difficulties.

 

It do think first person is more 'immersive'. It gives you the same view that you would have if you were that character encountering that world. With sufficient technology and true photorealistic stereoscopic graphics it has the potential to make the game into a sort of holodeck or lucid dream experience which could be very powerful indeed. Try playing a game with shutter glasses or an HMD or 3D monitor or some other stereoscopic aid and you might start to see the benefits of feeling like you are actually there. It makes even relatively dull encounters seem more exciting.

 

The problem, and it is not a small one, is that it makes tactical multi-character combat feel unnecessarily difficult. I mean, would you want to play a game of chess with your eyes at the level of the board? You wouldn't really even be able to see all of the pieces. I think that would even be true in a hypothetical VR environment. Having a raised view of the battlefield is always going to benefit tactical multi-character combat, especially pseudo-turn-based RTwP where all of the characters are frozen in place most of the time that you are making tactical decisions.

Edited by metiman

JoshSawyer: Listening to feedback from the fans has helped us realize that people can be pretty polarized on what they want, even among a group of people ostensibly united by a love of the same games. For us, that means prioritizing options is important. If people don’t like a certain aspect of how skill checks are presented or how combat works, we should give them the ability to turn that off, resources permitting.

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I think my signature kind of sums up my view of the original post. :p


Grandiose statements, cryptic warnings, blind fanboyisim and an opinion that leaves no room for argument and will never be dissuaded. Welcome to the forums, you'll go far in this place my boy, you'll go far!

 

The people who are a part of the "Fallout Community" have been refined and distilled over time into glittering gems of hatred.

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No.


Quite an experience to live in misery isn't it? That's what it is to be married with children.

I've seen things you people can't even imagine. Pearly Kings glittering on the Elephant and Castle, Morris Men dancing 'til the last light of midsummer. I watched Druid fires burning in the ruins of Stonehenge, and Yorkshiremen gurning for prizes. All these things will be lost in time, like alopecia on a skinhead. Time for tiffin.

 

Tea for the teapot!

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I still remember the first time i played an IE game...BG2...the sheer awe I felt traveling through Irenicus's dungeon culminating in his "battle" (more like massacre) of the cowled wizards who stood in his way, no modern game has ever captivated or intrigued me so much with a opening sequence. I was SO impressed that I stopped playing that game IMMEDIATELY and went and bought BG1 so i could start the saga from the beginning. By the time i finished ToB and became a god i had a sense of satisfaction that none of these soulless 3D worlds has yet to replicate.

 

I later played Planescape: Torment (wow) and IWD1-2 also masterfully done...

 

IMO Neverwinter nights was a step down but forward at the same: down in the sense that it didn't feel as rich as its predescessors but forward in that it spawned a bright age of story/quest fan modules that no other game series has ever come close to matching.

 

the ONLY modern game that has even come close to recapturing that old style flavor is Dragon Age: Origins...and sadly, we know what that series devolved into with its sequel.

 

so to answer the isometric vs 1st person view, my answer: F-U-C-K FPS and all these supposed graphical advancements, use updated tech to make my glorious ISO something that BG, PS:T and IWD would envy and be proud of!

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NO


"if everyone is dead then why don't i remember dying?"

—a clueless sod to a dustman

 

"if we're all alive then why don't i remember being born?"

—the dustman's response

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I've never had my immersion broken by the fixed viewpoint. And it's not that full 3D is not immersive (it is!), but like I said before on other posts: isometric perspective has become a style in itself, a style that many of us have learned to enjoy very much. It's another way of looking at computer generated art, and it relates more closely to old board games and tactical combat. Try to play Fallout 1 or 2 and you'll see how the action points grid on the floor is easier to read because of the fixed viewpoint. You'll probably also be impressed when you find out 90% of the game features of Fallout 3 were already present on those games.

 

This doesn't mean that I want my isometric world to be completely static; for 2012 standarts I expect some game world animations where they make sense. And those standarts were set by Commandos 3 nine years ago anyway, so it shouldn't be that hard now. Speaking about the Commandos series, this is a good example: they released 3 highly detailed isometric games where the strategy factor was just brilliant: you had an overview of the entire area to refine your strategy. Then they decided the 4th game would be a FPS. Here's what happened: "The game attracted an overwhelmingly negative reaction, especially from those coming from fans of the earlier games in the series who see this a massive departure mainly due to the trademark difficulty instead giving way to a game that is much less so. Similarly, it was promoted as mixing elements of strategy from the past games with traditional first-person shooter game-play but instead only hinted them and whilst being predominantly action oriented. As a result, both critics and fans felt it did little to distance itself from the recent flood of similar games."

 

There are so many other options for 3D and first person RPGs out there...

 

Anyway, Feargus Urquhart said somewhere the camera will be able to zoom in Project Eternity.


Project Eternity: Interactive/animated or descriptive? Check my poll and vote!

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