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[merged] Vancian Magic System and cooldowns

cooldown magic system vancian cooldowns memorization spells abilities

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Poll: [merged] Vancian Magic System and cooldowns (463 member(s) have cast votes)

Magic System

  1. Vancian (Memorization) (190 votes [41.04%])

    Percentage of vote: 41.04%

  2. Mana Pool (143 votes [30.89%])

    Percentage of vote: 30.89%

  3. Other (130 votes [28.08%])

    Percentage of vote: 28.08%

Spell Progression

  1. Individual Spells (MM->Acid Arrow->Fire Ball ->Skull Trap) (292 votes [63.07%])

    Percentage of vote: 63.07%

  2. Spells get upgraded (MM LVL 1-> MM LVL 2) (94 votes [20.30%])

    Percentage of vote: 20.30%

  3. Other (77 votes [16.63%])

    Percentage of vote: 16.63%

Should there be separate Arcane & Divine sides to magic?

  1. Yes (D&D) (268 votes [57.88%])

    Percentage of vote: 57.88%

  2. No (DA:O) (102 votes [22.03%])

    Percentage of vote: 22.03%

  3. Other (93 votes [20.09%])

    Percentage of vote: 20.09%

Vote

#41
eimatshya

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I don't know, people have been decrying the vancian style magic system for years but no one has been able to do better. The only other system in use is mana or, in ttrpgs spell points, which when you come down to it is still a form of vancian magic only without the slots being filled from the outset.


There are also fatigue based systems. For example, in the PnP game Blue Rose, when you cast a spell you have to roll to see if the effort causes you fatigue. The more powerful the spell, the more difficult the roll. In addition, each subsequent casting within a short timespan increases the difficulty of the fatigue roll. The effect is that rapid casting is more likely to cause you to build up fatigue, and eventually you can pass out if you push yourself too hard.

Anyway, I don't like D&D's spells-per-day system, so I hope they don't end up using it. If they want to force you to prepare spells strategically, that's fine with me, but casting the prepared spells should drain mana or build up fatigue or something. A system like the one Everquest used would be a way to keep the strategic element of having to choose a small number of your known spells to prepare, while not leaving mages useless after their meager number of spells per day run out. In Everquest's system (both in the computer game and the OGL PnP game), you scribe your spells in a spell book but can only memorize eight at a time. This forces you switch spells around depending on the circumstances you find yourself in, but since casting your memorized spells drains mana (which regenerates over time, a process that you can expedite by meditating), you can cast them as much as your mana will allow and only need to rest for a few minutes to replenish your mana when it runs out. This system, to me, strikes a good balance between utility and strategic preparation.

#42
Enclave

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I'm really not a fan of the Vancian system. Mainly the reason is that you never know what spell you're going to need until your 2nd play through of the game. This really hampers magic users. I like systems where I have all my spells available to me to use at a moments notice. Otherwise specialty spells just never get used.

#43
Hobo Elf

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As I mentioned in an earlier thread, there is no game that has ever come close to the utility of magic, and the awesomeness of mage battles in BG2. I actually struggle to come up with even one other game where magic amounted to anything more than crowd control and nukes. The vancian magic system was a big part of what made magic an important strategic part of the IE games, so at least consider using mechanics that resemble memorization.

edit: and for the love of god, stay away from cooldowns that make the game play like an offline MMO (I'm looking at you DA:O).


Well, there's always the Realms of Arkania series if you want a game where Magic-Users are well portrayed as the kings of utility. Fireballs can greatly damage enemies, but usually it would be smarter to just simply blind all the enemies and rust their weapons. That will be much less mana costly and actually produce better results as your fighters can dispatch the enemy with great ease thanks to your battlefield control. Not to mention that their staffs, when charged, can illuminate light and produce magical rope out of nothing, which ends up being 100x more useful than any amount of destructive spells you could have.
Now excuse me while I go spend 10 hours rolling my new RoA party.
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#44
Merin

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I don't hate "Vancian" magic (never heard this term, either, until 4E came out and people were complaining up a storm) but I'm not a fan.

I remember playing 1st and 2nd ED, me and my friends would lament there not being a spell point system until we finally invented out own.

So I'll not be upset with memorized spells, but personally I feel it is such an artificial construct that, narratively, makes so little sense to me. "I have to re-read the same words every day, and the second I cast the spell - POOF - it's erased from my memory." Whatever.
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#45
IEfan

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This is really pointless. They've made their point clear: they're probably going after something totally new or try something different with old systems. You can only comment on previous titles shortcomings for the best result.

And for that, i'd say that watch out for making everybody able to cast everything or same POOL of spells: this became a problem in BG2 where rangers, clerics, mages, druids, sorcerers, monks, friggin' everybody has spells (and the same ones) so spamming was huge and roles were lost. It got only worse in ToB, what with fighter's summoning celestial fighters etc. Ofc potions lost importance due to resting and spells, you sold them for money.

Also, all-can-cast also means that magic becomes everyday/bland in the process... but i think you can redeem this if what more fighter types learn sparsely + spells are pretty specific/unique than MAGIC MISSILE/ARMOR SPELL. Dialogue/character spells, psionic spells, you name it. It's like those goofy innate abilities in BG series but more useful. Maybe have different pool of spells for lots of folks too? Heroes the TV Series RPG :-P

Also be careful with buffs, don't want to see the all-buffs-before-big-fight-(cos-i-can-rest-when-no-enemy-is-around). NWN 1 & 2 revolved around boring buff spells though (with extended periods or strenght) and that blew too. I think best magic is when it acts interestingly besides those effective direct spells - like really goofy but powerful/strangely working spells. Make spells fantastic and perhaps akin to grenades or an battle-turning interventions or DESPERATE by-chance moves when used at right time.
I'm still thinking about how different (and FUN) BG's would had been if something like Wild Mages were introduced from the start.

Edited by IEfan, 19 September 2012 - 12:34 PM.


#46
Sylvius the Mad

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As mentioned before, "memorisation" was a poor word for it. You were effectively, using meditation, building a specific lattice of magical power in your mind, which, at the moment of casting was released. To cast the same spell again, the lattice needed to be rebuilt.

In earlier editions, the amount of time required to "memorise" spells was really quite onerous, plus the spellbooks from which the spells were "memorised" were massive. As such, a mage typically had to choose, before even embarking on his adventure, which spells he would have in his travelling spellbook (as his main spellbook was too large to transport), thus limiting his strategic options each day.

It was a much deeper system than CRPG translations made it appear.

#47
Golfcat

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Perhaps there could be a compromise between vancian and non vancian casting. One possibility is predominantly vancian, but with a few weak at will spells. There could also be separation of arcane and divine, or even just based on class, with one class or type of caster having vancian, while other classes have a spell point/mana system, or something completely original.

#48
Enclave

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Perhaps there could be a compromise between vancian and non vancian casting. One possibility is predominantly vancian, but with a few weak at will spells. There could also be separation of arcane and divine, or even just based on class, with one class or type of caster having vancian, while other classes have a spell point/mana system, or something completely original.


How would this solve the problem of more specialised spells never being used in your first play through?

When you actually know what's coming then the Vancian system is amazing since you can be prepared. When you have no clue what you're about to encounter? You just have to load up on generic damage/status effect spells and it becomes dull and boring.

When I play Baldur's Gate I only enjoy magic users now because I can prepare them well. I couldn't even imagine how much I'd have disliked playing one on my first play.

Now, I love the idea of individual spells instead of certain levels of spells. I also want spells to not be rendered useless as you level up. I also like finding a scroll that has a spell on it and then adding that spell to my repetoire rather than just automatically learning new spells as I level up. Just please, no Vancian system, I just hate when quirky fun spells that are only useful in certain circumstances never get used on a first play through.

#49
Umberlin

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I wonder if you can't combine the idea of a mana pool-like system with a memorization system. For example think of the idea of the more potent spells as those that require memorization, that you only get a very limited number of uses from, however, combine that with a second class of spells that use a mana pool-like system, that are much, much weaker, but can be used more consistently,

You could definitely make use of a specialization oriented system that suggested you needed to either branch out, or specialize, depending on your play style and goals for your character. However you'd specialize your weaker mana pool-like spells separately from your memorized spells. They might share a school system, but they'd cover different realms of that system. The Memorized spells would be your bigger, more complex spells. The mana pool-like spells would be simple spells that at their best might compare to cantrips, while still putting a limiter on them like a slow regenerating mana pool-like system. Though I'd prefer a small mana pool to the large ones.

-


You could take the second tier of your poll, and, again, use both. Have the very specific styled spells be your memorized spells, specific named spells that you can only memorize so many of at a time. In contrast your mana pool-like spells would use the upgrade of older spells. In my mind this means specialization would be even more limiting for the mana poo-style spells in this context where you have both. Because the memorized spells would be your variety, even if you've specialized in an entire school, but your mana pool-like using spells would be limited to one or two spells that you could highly customize and upgrade to your needs. Think of these cantrip level mana pool-like spells as being like your character in that you'd need to level them up toward different functions.

Example:


Perhaps your cantrip-like spell is a little ball of electricity. At a base you launch it toward an enemy and it does very little damage. Now, you could upgrade its damage to an extent, but your memorized spells would always do far, far more damage (or be better at any given/equivalent) effect we're talking about, we're just using a damage spell in the example). However you could also customize the ball of electricity to split itself when you launch it or to become a swarm of projectiles or to track enemies or explode or pierce or what have you. You'd only be able to upgrade it so much as you leveled, but you'd be able to customize it and combine upgrades to an extent to your character's needs.

Regardless they'd always be weaker than memorized spell equivalents, and used not as a main means of attack (or whatever the function of the spell) but as a sort of natural wand. In fact I'm not entirely sure the system should be, 'those one or two wands (or a staff, or whatever you're thinking) you're taught to craft that have a slowly regenerating power supply in them' that you can upgrade and augment as you gain levels and different forms of upgrade are made available to you. You could treat them as weapon sets, and prevent you from equipping new equipment in battle, but allow a character to switch between those two weapon sets letting you change between two of these effects. Obviously much more limited than Memorized casting, but pointedly so.

In contrast your memorized spell of 'the big squishy energy fist of doom' would be a named, already customized - by another mage long ago - spell that you have to memorize. You'd memorize charged of it much like in DnD. The spell's function would always be the same. However it would also be much more potent, and always be so.

-


I'm not entirely sure you have to go with an Arcane/Divine model at all . . . what if you made more base distinctions than that? I always felt, for example elemental (obvious) from arcane (the more wierd non-elemental effects and spells) and divine from nature. Regardless I'd want there to be much less cross over than you saw in DnD. I'd definitely want spells in one area to be wholly unique from spells in another, especially where memroized spells are concerned.

Edited by Umberlin, 19 September 2012 - 12:53 PM.


#50
Merin

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As mentioned before, "memorisation" was a poor word for it. You were effectively, using meditation, building a specific lattice of magical power in your mind, which, at the moment of casting was released. To cast the same spell again, the lattice needed to be rebuilt.

In earlier editions, the amount of time required to "memorise" spells was really quite onerous, plus the spellbooks from which the spells were "memorised" were massive. As such, a mage typically had to choose, before even embarking on his adventure, which spells he would have in his travelling spellbook (as his main spellbook was too large to transport), thus limiting his strategic options each day.

It was a much deeper system than CRPG translations made it appear.


Oh, I played it. And hated it.

We immediately did away with spell components as unnecessarily fun-killing. I've never played a role-playing game, in fact, where I've need spell components - unless you talk about the ones where you own a "components pouch" and it counts as what you need.

Explanations or no of what happens, they are just explanations for a codified game mechanic - they needed to balance magic spells against other classes, and they needed to give advancing wizards something to look forward to. Instead of just gaining new spells, you gained the ability to cast spells more often.

I'm about to commit heresy here, but I greatly preferred 4E's magic system.

#51
Enclave

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As mentioned before, "memorisation" was a poor word for it. You were effectively, using meditation, building a specific lattice of magical power in your mind, which, at the moment of casting was released. To cast the same spell again, the lattice needed to be rebuilt.

In earlier editions, the amount of time required to "memorise" spells was really quite onerous, plus the spellbooks from which the spells were "memorised" were massive. As such, a mage typically had to choose, before even embarking on his adventure, which spells he would have in his travelling spellbook (as his main spellbook was too large to transport), thus limiting his strategic options each day.

It was a much deeper system than CRPG translations made it appear.


Oh, I played it. And hated it.

We immediately did away with spell components as unnecessarily fun-killing. I've never played a role-playing game, in fact, where I've need spell components - unless you talk about the ones where you own a "components pouch" and it counts as what you need.

Explanations or no of what happens, they are just explanations for a codified game mechanic - they needed to balance magic spells against other classes, and they needed to give advancing wizards something to look forward to. Instead of just gaining new spells, you gained the ability to cast spells more often.

I'm about to commit heresy here, but I greatly preferred 4E's magic system.


That's not heresy at all if you ask me. 4E gets way more flak than it deserves.

#52
Infinitron

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It might be interesting to use a Vancian system, but to be able to re-memorize your spells in some other way in addition to resting.

#53
HarTstaRx

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I think the system depends on the class you use. For example I thought a system for a class that uses a black type of magic, and goes like this:

The system is event based: For example with lunar cycles or mood peaks. Also some of the most powerful abilities would be need certain materials like blood, corpses. I think a system like this fits better for black magic classes / races.



Another system that could fit for druidic or naturalistic classes / races could be one like this:

The system is Vancian and the player would need some extra aid to cast some of the spells (maybe a pet / little companion)



I think there is not one only system that fits best all the possibilities. This is one of those things I think RPG's have in common, we could use one system for all, but it won't be the best one for each one of the possibilities.


Edit: spelling.

Edited by HarTstaRx, 19 September 2012 - 01:12 PM.


#54
Golfcat

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Perhaps there could be a compromise between vancian and non vancian casting. One possibility is predominantly vancian, but with a few weak at will spells. There could also be separation of arcane and divine, or even just based on class, with one class or type of caster having vancian, while other classes have a spell point/mana system, or something completely original.


How would this solve the problem of more specialised spells never being used in your first play through?

When you actually know what's coming then the Vancian system is amazing since you can be prepared. When you have no clue what you're about to encounter? You just have to load up on generic damage/status effect spells and it becomes dull and boring.

When I play Baldur's Gate I only enjoy magic users now because I can prepare them well. I couldn't even imagine how much I'd have disliked playing one on my first play.

Now, I love the idea of individual spells instead of certain levels of spells. I also want spells to not be rendered useless as you level up. I also like finding a scroll that has a spell on it and then adding that spell to my repetoire rather than just automatically learning new spells as I level up. Just please, no Vancian system, I just hate when quirky fun spells that are only useful in certain circumstances never get used on a first play through.

I also dislike vancian, but a lot of posters here seem to like it, so to satisfy those who would prefer vancian, you could have one class that can memorize, or prepare (seems a bit less preposterous than "Whee magic missile! Wait, what did I just do? *checks spellbook*"), and that class could also have at will abilities that aren't as powerful as those that were prepared, but can be used constantly so a caster can feel like a caster most of the time, while still having that sense that the REALLY powerful magic can only be used sparingly, and a spellpoint based class in addition to vancian would help cater to still more players who don't like vancian at all and don't want to bother with it.

#55
Tlantl

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Since this is going to be a single player game, a mana pool is just as good as any other. The problem I see with spell points and mana pools in ttrpgs is they upset the balance between the classes. Being able to cast multiple versions of your highest level and most powerful spells tends to cause friction at the table, but in a squad based single player system this isn't the main concern. The idea that your spell casters are going to be more valuable is an issue though and some might feel the same friction in their squad as others do at the table.

If there is going to be a multiplayer component such as co-op play this balance issue will raise it's ugly head once more. The caster being head and shoulders above the non casters.

As for a fatigue system I worry that this would cause serious survival issues if the word "fatigue" means what it I think of as fatigue i.e. sapping ones strength to the point where they can no longer function. Sort of like a body builder's work out which leaves them so drained that they couldn't protect themselves or fight effectively. Otherwise it's just another word for mana, magicka, or spell points.

Edited by Tlantl, 19 September 2012 - 01:22 PM.


#56
Monte Carlo

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May I direct y'all to RuneQuest, my favourite PnP system.

There you had 'Battle Magic' and 'Rune Magic.'

Battle magic was lower-level buffs: healing, weapon buffs, enemy screw-ups (*fumble* was a favourite, it made your enemy clumsy).

Rune Magic was for higher level priests or 'sorcerers' (it was tied to the religious system in the game, long story).

Both were fuelled by a prime statistic (called POWER) which dropped as you used magic, a la a mana system.... but characters could boost / store Power in different items like ammo.

An iteration of this would work well in what Obz are proposing: soul magic versus 'X' 'Y' or 'Z' magic perhaps?

#57
Enclave

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Since this is going to be a single player game, a manna pool is just as good as any other. The problem I see with spell points and mana pools in ttrpgs is they upset the balance between the classes. Being able to cast multiple versions of your highest level and most powerful spells tends to cause friction at the table, but in a squad based single player system this isn't the main concern. The idea that your spell casters are going to be more valuable is an issue though and some might feel the same friction in their squad as others do at the table.

If there is going to be a multiplayer component such as co-op play this balance issue will raise it's ugly head once more. The caster being head and shoulders above the non casters.

As for a fatigue system I worry that this would cause serious survival issues if the word "fatigue" means what it I think of as fatigue i.e. sapping ones strength to the point where they can no longer function. Sort of like a body builder's work out which leaves them so drained that they couldn't protect themselves or fight effectively. Otherwise it's just another word for mana, magicka, or spell points.


Eh, that's easily remedied by not giving a ton of mp to casters. Still limit how many spells per day they can cast, hell even limit how many spells of certain "levels" they can cast like you see in a Vancian system. Just don't limit them to which spells specifically they have to memorise every day. Give them full access to their entire repetoire at all times as long as they have the spell points to support it.

Look at the original Final Fantasy. In that game your casters had full access to all their spells at all times. What limited them was they could only cast x spells from a certain spell level each day.

This mimics what you're talking about the Vancian system doing but while giving casters their full range of options for whatever situation they find themselves in.

#58
Mrowaksu

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To my mind Vancian system makes much better sense from the gamplay perspective than mana one, at least in PnP or computer games that are not hack & slash click-fests,

Why? Because it stresses the need for strategic preparation and resource management - something that contemporary MMORPGs and new cRPGs lack. The peak of resource management we have now is buying loads of mana potions and downing them like there was no tomorrow, or like you don't need that liver of yours for anything at all. In Vancian system you'd have to have necessary components with you, spellscrolls and wands for magic that you rarely use but which can save your sorry arse at any given moment (glitterdust, levitation, web, fly. dimension door etc), potions just in case, magic items that could offset you character's lack of offensive spellpower (e.g. bottles of holy water for undead, alchemical fire for AoE damage) etc. With mana system things like that seem redundant most of the time when you can invoke every possible spell at you whim.

Cooldowns are not real solution here since again you can 'buff up' (hate that term) at any given time, and then in combat use your best spells in set pattern waiting for the most powerful ones to recover. For obvious reasons you can't have anything like that in classic D&D.

Thus, it can be said that if anything, Vancian system adds to gameplay by introducing variety and shoving the responsibility of choosing appropriate spells and items on the player. Whether Vancian system has been utilised well enough in gaming history is a different question altogether.

Second, the Vancian system does make logical sense. It is simply that I think you should cease to see spells as just utilities (which they doubtlessly are! After all you cast a spell, you get a concrete effect which you can then utilise) for a moment. It is easy to justify so called 'spell slots' (which is a metagaming term) by simply approaching magic from the perspective of lore (after all, that's what it is for - to support game-design). You can say that all spells are 'semi-living' entities. The moment you memorise a spell you invite this 'entity' to your mind. You do so while sleeping/meditating. However, for the process to be successful you must have all necessary rituals prepared in your brain - that would be a psychic eqivalent of drawing a summoning circle. As arcane energies enter your (sub-)consciousness to fit themselves into a fixed spell-pattern you know well (having learned it years ago) they render that pattern a semi-living being who is just waiting for a moment of laxity to fry your brain. Only the most talented can master techniques which can prevent the spells from doing so without needing to concentrate. Hence, even first level wizard is a truly experienced magic practicioner as he can cast up to 3 1st level spells (sleep, charm and shield are indeed very powerful) per day without sacrificing his sanity or blowing his head off.

Seems quite logical to me. Yes you can say it's LARPing but again - this is what lore is for - to justify the systems that is immensely fun, rich and has infinite potential.
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#59
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I like the 4E approach of at-will spells and limited spells. Best of both worlds.

#60
Stun

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I like Vancian casting. All the IE games used it, after all. And it feels much less "action-y"" than the mana-based spell-spamming systems in most RPGs today, which are basically "here's the blue bar.... the stamina for mages bar, and here's your per-second blast attacks. You can call them spells if you want, but really, they're just like the weapons that all the other classes get, just more colorful. Oh and here's a cooldown mechanic for your spells to remind you of WoW and Dragon age. PS: If your mana bar gets low from spamming, just Drink some more mana potions and you can be an energy-blasting machine, er, I mean mage, all over again.

<gag> No thanks.

That all said, magic will be tied to our souls, apparently, which to me suggests a system more like how Sorcerers are in 2nd and 3rd edition D&D. I loved playing Sorcerers in those games.

Edited by Stun, 19 September 2012 - 01:38 PM.

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