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[merged] Vancian Magic System and cooldowns

cooldown magic system vancian cooldowns memorization spells abilities

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Poll: [merged] Vancian Magic System and cooldowns (463 member(s) have cast votes)

Magic System

  1. Vancian (Memorization) (190 votes [41.04%])

    Percentage of vote: 41.04%

  2. Mana Pool (143 votes [30.89%])

    Percentage of vote: 30.89%

  3. Other (130 votes [28.08%])

    Percentage of vote: 28.08%

Spell Progression

  1. Individual Spells (MM->Acid Arrow->Fire Ball ->Skull Trap) (292 votes [63.07%])

    Percentage of vote: 63.07%

  2. Spells get upgraded (MM LVL 1-> MM LVL 2) (94 votes [20.30%])

    Percentage of vote: 20.30%

  3. Other (77 votes [16.63%])

    Percentage of vote: 16.63%

Should there be separate Arcane & Divine sides to magic?

  1. Yes (D&D) (268 votes [57.88%])

    Percentage of vote: 57.88%

  2. No (DA:O) (102 votes [22.03%])

    Percentage of vote: 22.03%

  3. Other (93 votes [20.09%])

    Percentage of vote: 20.09%

Vote

#21
Sylvius the Mad

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The spell preparation and reagent system from Ultima IV achieves many of people's desired objectives, as well. Mages must plan ahead, they cannot mindlessly spam powerful abilities, but there's no incredulity stemming from memorisation (personally, I don't think memorisation actually has this problem, but, again, many do - I think documenting it better would help).

#22
aluminiumtrioxid

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Forgetting spells after using them is just plain stupid. (It can enhance a feeling of magic being weird and not working according to any natural law, but I doubt it will be a central the theme of this game's magic system.)

I could find a system where you can prepare spells in advance, but not lose them immediately after using acceptable. E.g. you have to obtain the formula and memorize it, but the actual casting is only limited by your mana pool. Or unmemorized, but known formulae can be cast with an increased cost (and/or chance of failure).

But if they decide that you have to obtain individual spells, I want research and experimenting to be a viable option to do so. (Or the only option, in case of very unique and/or powerful spells. If three villages have to be completely drained of life in order for me to obtain an ultimate necromantic spell, let me be presented with the dilemma [possibly with the option of obtaining said spell by other means - draining yourself and sacrificing ability points, making bargains with demons, etc.]).

As for upgrading spells, I'd also like to accomplish it by researching and experimenting. Also, multiple ways to upgrade a spell (which, in turn, differentiates into many spells) would be nice.

Edited by aluminiumtrioxid, 19 September 2012 - 11:48 AM.


#23
Sylvius the Mad

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Added poll.

It's not necessary to have Vancian casting in order to have strong strategic gameplay (rather than just tactical gameplay). A mana pool that doesn't regenerate on its own would work like that.


Unless of course there were mana potions like 99% of games with a mana pool.

Read further down. There are ways around that, as well.

#24
Living One

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I like Vancian too.I think the main problem with it has been that the resting sistem often lead to exploitation but that can be fixed:
-rest only in specific points you have to discover like Dark Souls,which also brings in something that rewards exploration even more than finding good loot(of course you have to put limits otherwise players will just get back to rest after every encounter:either have enemies respawn/new enemies appear every time the player tries it or limit the number of times the resting spot can be used);
-or treat spells like ammo:you have to search for stuff to recharge your spells(again you reward exploration and taking risks to look outside the main path)

Mana,instead,is the uni ammo edition of magic(mana potions=uni ammo).

#25
Tlantl

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I'm not a fan of Vancian in videogames (or in tabletop for that matter, but for markedly different reasons) because I always felt like it leads to either metagaming or discourages experimenting with different tactics with your casters. As much as I thought Baldur's Gate II battles were a lot of fun, they could often devolve into using more or less the same spells into the same sequence.


Yes but no matter what system used to power or restrict access to spells this is going to happen anyway. You will find the combination of spells or powers or what have you that works best for the way you deal with situations and use them to the exclusion of the rest

#26
ShadySands

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Please no Vancian system. The only D&D game I could finish as a caster class was NWN2 as a warlock

#27
Wombat

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Shamelessly promoting my own topic because it directly correlates with my own opinion on this.

http://forums.obsidi...nse-of-urgency/

It's essentially a power system similar to 4th edition D&D.

I'm another advocator of resource-management over mechanical time-limit since It means more player-side responsibility rather than one-sided limitations given at the whim of the designers. I share the reorganization of the problem but solution may vary.

Vanican/memorization system is the sole reason for old D&D to have camping/random encounter system. Did my guess fail or Sawyer has another system for resource-management in mind? Too little info at the moment.

It's not necessary to have Vancian casting in order to have strong strategic gameplay (rather than just tactical gameplay). A mana pool that doesn't regenerate on its own would work like that.

This can be a possible solution. With Vanican system, the players may prepare "wrong spells" for their upcoming obstacles and there are no DM in CRPG. Also, reagent system can include some crafting and resource management. Yeah, what we need to know before any judgement is how actually whole the system work.

#28
Hobo Elf

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As much as I prefer Vancian magic over mana, I think the bigger issue here at the moment is how does magic work in the first place and will Magic-Users be given back their rightful utility spells or will we they be once again reduced into glorified archers with blue and red missiles instead of normal arrows.

Edited by Hobo Elf, 19 September 2012 - 11:52 AM.

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#29
Luckmann

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I would prefer a mix of Mana and Vancian, with cooldowns.

On one hand, you should be able to memorize spells, deciding what spells to have in your repetoire. These you then prepare. But using them costs mana, and when you use them, they go on a cooldown. Mana, like Health, should have little to no natural regeneration.

That way, choosing your spells becomes strategy, just like with vancian.
It gets tactical, because the spells you use go on cooldowns - but there is nothing stopping you from choosing to prepare multiple uses of the same spells (or with different metamagics attached to them).
It is still subject to attrition, because they would require mana.

It's a system that I consider the best of all worlds.
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#30
NoxNoctum

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I see a lot of people wishing for 4e mechanics in this game which I'm kinda confused about cause I've seen it trashed on Amazon and a lot of RPG sites. I've never played P-n-P (just never been around people who were interested in it unfortunately), but I dunno, it seems kinda surprising to me to see people on here recommending it all of a sudden?

Anyways, I like the vancian system of memorizing spells, it adds a cool strategic element, but they would need to come up with a solid rest system if they're going that route.

As mentioned already with the mana pool system you just always spam the same stuff every fight. Kinda lame IMO.

#31
Lord of Lost Socks

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It's simply because previous version of D&D are not as suitable and easily adapted to video games as 4th edition. And I personally prefer 4th edition, even though people bash it. Then again, I only played 3.5 twice.

#32
WorstUsernameEver

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Yes but no matter what system used to power or restrict access to spells this is going to happen anyway. You will find the combination of spells or powers or what have you that works best for the way you deal with situations and use them to the exclusion of the rest


Sure, there are always minmaxers, but I'd just prefer if the base mechanics weren't tilted in favor of that playstyle. I'd still play the game and enjoy it if it had Vancian magic, it's just not something I'm big on.

#33
Monkcrab

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Not a fan of Vancian. A yes to individual spells with no 'spell upgrades', though, and perhaps spell research. Anyone remember Betrayal at Antara? The game could be painful, but I always thought it a shame that the magic research system never appeared again after that.

To really know what would make sense we'd need to know how magic works first, however...

#34
Luckmann

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I see a lot of people wishing for 4e mechanics in this game which I'm kinda confused about cause I've seen it trashed on Amazon and a lot of RPG sites. I've never played P-n-P (just never been around people who were interested in it unfortunately), but I dunno, it seems kinda surprising to me to see people on here recommending it all of a sudden?

Anyways, I like the vancian system of memorizing spells, it adds a cool strategic element, but they would need to come up with a solid rest system if they're going that route.

As mentioned already with the mana pool system you just always spam the same stuff every fight. Kinda lame IMO.

People generally don't like the 4E system because it is extremely game-y, heavily influenced by modern MMORPGs both in style and mechanics.

The fact that people wouldn't mind this in actual computer games shouldn't be surprising. 4E almost seems made entirely to be used in computer games.

#35
Shadenuat

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Memorising or mana, things always boil down to how mage replenishes his magical resource. Spell slots, mana or ingredients, they are all magical resources, just like hit points. Strategy is't just about placing spells into slots, it's about how hard to get your slots back. And that is what determines spellcaster's gameplay - where exactly resource replenishment fits into game and battle encounters.
So really, stamina or ingredients can work as well as memorising spells - if there are no stamina potions, or ingredients are costly and have weight, ect.

As for 4th edition, it does not exactly make more sense than 3d or 2d. Why exactly a ranger can use some sort of snipe ability only once per combat? Does he forget it and the re-memorises? I know it mimics sort of "dramatic moments" or "fate points" maybe, but still :3

#36
Amentep

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The spell preparation and reagent system from Ultima IV achieves many of people's desired objectives, as well. Mages must plan ahead, they cannot mindlessly spam powerful abilities, but there's no incredulity stemming from memorisation (personally, I don't think memorisation actually has this problem, but, again, many do - I think documenting it better would help).


I never played Ultima IV, but it sounds interesting looking it up online for how it worked.
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#37
Continuity

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As I mentioned in an earlier thread, there is no game that has ever come close to the utility of magic, and the awesomeness of mage battles in BG2. I actually struggle to come up with even one other game where magic amounted to anything more than crowd control and nukes. The vancian magic system was a big part of what made magic an important strategic part of the IE games, so at least consider using mechanics that resemble memorization.

edit: and for the love of god, stay away from cooldowns that make the game play like an offline MMO (I'm looking at you DA:O).

Edited by Continuity, 19 September 2012 - 12:10 PM.

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#38
Sylvius the Mad

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It's simply because previous version of D&D are not as suitable and easily adapted to video games as 4th edition. And I personally prefer 4th edition, even though people bash it. Then again, I only played 3.5 twice.

For the record, I loathe 4th edition. Also, it broke the pattern of quality.

1st edition was great. But 1.5 (Unearthed Arcana) was unbalanced.
2nd edition was great. But 2.5 (Skills & Powers) was grossly unbalanced.
3rd edition was great (though I continue to lament the loss of dual-classing). But 3.5 was broken.
4th edition was terrible. Pattern broken.

#39
Kissamies

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It should be ritual based.

Want to fire a fireball at a troll? Dance around for 3 minutes chanting while making mystic signs.

Want to stop time? Hire three other dances, dance in tandem for 7 hours and 15 minutes and slaughter a goat.

:)

Actually I wouldn't mind exploring a slower, more subtle and more powerful magic system instead of the more typical "lightning bolt!" "lightning bolt!" "death!" system. Spells would take minutes to cast, but in semi-vancian style a small number of them could be cast beforehand and then held in reserve to be triggered in combat. This sort of system would probably focus on buffs, healing, and other things you can do outside combat.

#40
Lord of Lost Socks

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My only gripe with 4th ed. is that the powers don't really make sense for fighters, for example. But that's a minor gripe I can take for better gameplay. Then again, my groups games are fairly houseruled when it's required. (Cyberpunk campaigns, skill challenges involving more than dice rolling in form of "mini-games", reflavouring classes to suit the character as much as you want, etc)





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