Jump to content

Your thoughts on level scaling:  

622 members have voted

  1. 1. Your thoughts on level scaling:

    • kill it with fire. I want to be treated like an adult and won't start crying because a dragon kills me when I'm level one. I also want to feel powerfull at the end of the game.
    • I want the weaker guys scaled according to my level. I want a challenge even if it means daadric-armoured rats.
    • I want to be the centre of the world. Everything must kneel before me and scale to my level.
    • I don't care...


Recommended Posts

Please, don't implement level scaling. I want to be killed if I'm level 1 and try to kill a level 5 monster and of course I want to kill all that lame orcs without effor when I'm level 20.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I generally hate level scaling. That said, I wouldn't be against letting certain types of NPCs/humanoids earn experience themselves.

 

For example, if there were one or two other parties of adventurers that were doing stuff that you crossed paths with every so often, it would make sense that they got stronger.

 

Likewise, if there's some kind of ongoing war or battle, it makes sense that those participating in it would get stronger as they fought in more battles.

 

However, it does not make sense that the sewer rats would continually become stronger and stronger mutant menaces.

 

 

 

This brings me to the other side of the coin -- I hate hate hate level scaling, but I also hate it when 6 people can barely kill a rat when starting out. If you can kill a peasant at level one with no issues, why the heck is killing a stupid wild animal next to impossible? (I haven't had huge problems with this in infinity engine games, perhaps excluding Icewind Dale, but just keep it mind.)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't want any scaling. I don't want weapon scaling, level scaling, hp scaling ,enemy scaling... nuttin.


* YOU ARE A WRONGULARITY FROM WHICH NO RIGHT CAN ESCAPE! *

Chuck Norris was wrong once - He thought HE made a mistake!

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Personally I feel like the game should be hard any place and time of the game. It would best if the difficulty selected would actually impact how hard the game would be not simply with better stats, but AI as well. Scaling might make the game interested if it was upper bound scaled, as in when you start on hard with level you one, a level one mob is twice as strong as you, making you really sweat to kill each and every one of the mods.

 

Remember The Witcher on Hard? It was insanely hard, I had to use every tool and skill I had to kill simple monsters, I died hundreds of times on simple mobs that I incidentally ran across in the woods. Why would it be interesting to die so much? Because I am human those are damn monsters, they should be a lot stronger then me.

Edited by Slice0fLife

toplogow.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'd like to add one suggestion.

 

 

*If* you're going to add any level scaling to the game, please, let us kill it with fire and eliminate all its traces with an option under Expert mode or whatever other mode. Thank you.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The option to turn it of, should be available in any difficulty setting. It should be the first option in the "Game Difficulty Settings" tab.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The option to turn it of, should be available in any difficulty setting. It should be the first option in the "Game Difficulty Settings" tab.

 

Yes, it should be really easy to kill it with fire in the options menu. :p

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

They already said that there will be little to none scaling.

 

http://forums.obsidi...40#entry1219467

 

I know, but the way he put it.. it still leaves open the possibility of some level scaling. So if level scaling does find its way into PE, I'd like the option to get rid of it completely. That's one of the perks of reaching the stretch goal for modes. :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just hit a point in DA:O where every enemy has scaled up. So now certain abilities are just pointless, I find my entire party wailing against a single enemy (which just drags the battle out) and characters that were good now feel totally inadequate. And I considered the scaling in DA:O less of a problem than in TES games.

 

Burn it with fire, however long it takes and whatever it's current HP.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Few people remember that Baldur's Gate 2 actually had level scaling. In several instances, the game will spawn different mobs depending on your level: there's even a component in SCS2 to force the game to always choose the hardest encounters.

 

That sort of level scaling is all right, in my opinion, so long as it's done as discretely as it was in Baldur's Gate II. Anything beyond that -- I say kill it with fire. I find it to be rather annoying to wander into an area that should be very difficult at low level and not have any more trouble with it than one would have at high level (I like the sense of the party getting in over their heads in some areas), and it's certainly frustrating for the same things to be just as difficult still at tenth level to kill as they were at first.


knightofchaoss.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In defense of level scaling

 

Level scaling is not the all or nothing proposition that the OP makes it out to be. You can use it to improve the game so long as it's done right. Level scaling done right is building zones and applying level scaling to those zones.

 

For example:

In the game you have expected zone progression. You expect to start in the beginning areas, Zone 1, then move on to the next areas, Zone 2, then the next, and eventually end up in the final and most difficult areas, Zone 6. In Zone 1, you can adventure in subsections 1a, or 1b, or 1c. The expectation is that you will complete 2-3 of the subsections before moving onto Zone 2, at around level 2.

 

Now, instead of making everything in Zone 1 level fixed at level 1, you set level scaling for that Zone to level 1-2. This way, the locations in Zone 1 will be equally challenging regardless of which order you decide to explore them in.

 

Zone 2, on the other hand, expects that you've already finished Zone 1, and thus is set to scale to level 2-4. If you want to skip Zone 1 and run straight to Zone 2, you can, but you're going to be at a disadvantage. If you explore every subsection of Zone 1, and thus are level 3 going into Zone 2, you'll still feel the same challenge as someone who's level 2.

 

If you're suicidal, you can run to one of the Zone 6 areas from the start and die immediately. But by the time you're high enough level to tackle the Zone 6 areas, scaled to lvl 9-10, Zone 1 and 2 areas (scaled at lvl 2 and lvl 4 respectively) are pushovers.

 

Thus, with level scaling, you have freedom of progression (you don't have tackle the areas in particular order), enhanced challenge (it takes longer to out-level an area), a sense of empowerment (you still out-level areas), reduced grinding (you can be lvl 9 or 10 to be on-level for the final areas), and better balance (Zone 2 combat isn't immediately a push-over because you decided to quest longer in Zone 1).

Edited by timobkg
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Good lord, NONONONONONONONO! Furthermore, I... Hmm, I think I'll make a topic about a related thought that just came to mind.


http://cbrrescue.org/

 

Go afield with a good attitude, with respect for the wildlife you hunt and for the forests and fields in which you walk. Immerse yourself in the outdoors experience. It will cleanse your soul and make you a better person.----Fred Bear

 

http://michigansaf.org/

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Scaling is stupid and annoying. It also makes it a nuisance when trying to just head through the lower end zones to get to a different area i don't want to have to waste time killing the weak monsters again.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It warms my heart that everyone wants to kill it with fire.


^

 

 

I agree that that is such a stupid idiotic pathetic garbage hateful retarded scumbag evil satanic nazi like term ever created. At least top 5.

 

TSLRCM Official Forum || TSLRCM Moddb || My other KOTOR2 mods || TSLRCM (English version) on Steam || [M4-78EP on Steam

Formerly known as BattleWookiee/BattleCookiee

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So far I am liking what I am seeing. The fact that Obsidian actually gets to make this the way THEY want, and are taking direct feedback from the supporters/backers is perfect. I hate level scaling. The world doesn't level scale. I do support some sort of limited amount of scripting to try to get you from sabotaging yourself, along the lines of, "I wouldn't go into the __. I saw an entire squad of veteran paladins/__ go in and never come back." It isn't stopping you, but it is giving you warning.

Edited by Michael_Galt

"1 is 1"

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Level scaling.

For me it's a curse of cRPGs. I prefer it when the monsters have a set level and venturing into a wild area means a death. I also love the feeling of an all powerful being that can kill a mere guard with a single strike.

 

What are your thoughts?

 

Absolutely agree!!

 

:)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

"We will have very little level scaling and almost entirely in critical path areas since there's a lot of variability in when players approach them."

 

I don't get this.

 

Isn't it one of the logical aspects of a non-linear RP game to not be able to just walk through the plot at any level? What's so horrifying about having the player doing side quests and exploring the world to grow stronger and then face the tough critical path encounters?

If you choose to go at a lower level, deal with dire consequences. Why would the crit path adjust to the player by scaling encounters to his level?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What kind of example does this set for Bioware? :unsure:

 

Bioware HQ: "Yeaah! What a relief! If they can get away with very little level scaling in PE, we're free to level scale every single creature, including NPC cats and dogs, in all our future games! Hell yeah!!"

Edited by Valorian

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

"We will have very little level scaling and almost entirely in critical path areas since there's a lot of variability in when players approach them."

 

I don't get this.

 

Isn't it one of the logical aspects of a non-linear RP game to not be able to just walk through the plot at any level? What's so horrifying about having the player doing side quests and exploring the world to grow stronger and then face the tough critical path encounters?

If you choose to go at a lower level, deal with dire consequences. Why would the crit path adjust to the player by scaling encounters to his level?

 

 

It's very simple, almost all players aren't going to do all side quests no matter how much of them are in the game, because they got bored, because of role playing or they don't find them all. Problem arises when there are a lot of side quests because different players will begin main quest at different level, and encounters without level scaling are interesting only if you approach them at certain level range otherwise they are either boring or impossible. Main quest is usually the best part of the game and it is really disappointing when part of it is boring to you because you are stomping everything on your way. I find this problem in a lot of games without any level scaling because I like doing side quests but I always have to be careful and from time to time complete main quests although I don't fell like it because I don't want to overlevel.

 

Limited level scaling (within certain limits it doesn't have to scale exactly to your level nor below certain point) ensures that parts of the game on which developers spent most time remain challenging and interesting to all players and it enables you to complete as much side quests as you want (again within certain limits) without thinking if you have done too little or too much. Look at Fallout:NV for an example of good level scaling, I don't know why everybody thinks that the only way to implement level scaling is like in Oblivion.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Josh said they would implement level scaling like in New Vegas, so I'm curious about how well it worked there since I've never played it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

It's very simple, almost all players aren't going to do all side quests no matter how much of them are in the game, because they got bored, because of role playing or they don't find them all. Problem arises when there are a lot of side quests because different players will begin main quest at different level, and encounters without level scaling are interesting only if you approach them at certain level range otherwise they are either boring or impossible. Main quest is usually the best part of the game and it is really disappointing when part of it is boring to you because you are stomping everything on your way. I find this problem in a lot of games without any level scaling because I like doing side quests but I always have to be careful and from time to time complete main quests although I don't fell like it because I don't want to overlevel.

 

Limited level scaling (within certain limits it doesn't have to scale exactly to your level nor below certain point) ensures that parts of the game on which developers spent most time remain challenging and interesting to all players and it enables you to complete as much side quests as you want (again within certain limits) without thinking if you have done too little or too much. Look at Fallout:NV for an example of good level scaling, I don't know why everybody thinks that the only way to implement level scaling is like in Oblivion.

 

This kind of reasoning (crit plot crit path and movieplot only omg!!) brought us the abomination of level scaling in the first place.

 

The whole game is a set of plots and little stories. The critical path is only one of them. The player should reasonably expect that the critical path has some of the toughest combat encounters in the game.

 

Why should designers accommodate a minority that is only interested in railroading themselves through the critical path (movie-style) ignoring the rest of the game, and ruin the experience for everyone else by introducing this nonsense?

 

These critical path encounters won't be boring if, logically, they're some of the toughest fights in the game. You want to beat them? Stop crying, explore the world, train with your weapons and spells, find some powerful artifacts and then come back and deal with the big bads. Level scaling is not needed at all for them to not be boring.. what is needed is just some player/designer common sense.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...