Level scaling

[TrashMan]

I don't want any scaling. I don't want weapon scaling, level scaling, hp scaling ,enemy scaling... nuttin.

[Slice0fLife]

Personally I feel like the game should be hard any place and time of the game. It would best if the difficulty selected would actually impact how hard the game would be not simply with better stats, but AI as well. Scaling might make the game interested if it was upper bound scaled, as in when you start on hard with level you one, a level one mob is twice as strong as you, making you really sweat to kill each and every one of the mods.

 

Remember The Witcher on Hard? It was insanely hard, I had to use every tool and skill I had to kill simple monsters, I died hundreds of times on simple mobs that I incidentally ran across in the woods. Why would it be interesting to die so much? Because I am human those are damn monsters, they should be a lot stronger then me.

Edited September 23, 2012 by Slice0fLife

[Valorian]

I'd like to add one suggestion.

 

 

*If* you're going to add any level scaling to the game, please, let us kill it with fire and eliminate all its traces with an option under Expert mode or whatever other mode. Thank you.

[kenup]

The option to turn it of, should be available in any difficulty setting. It should be the first option in the "Game Difficulty Settings" tab.

[Rozkurwiciel]

This topic is pretty easy. Level scaling is great to some little extend.

[Valorian]

The option to turn it of, should be available in any difficulty setting. It should be the first option in the "Game Difficulty Settings" tab.

 

Yes, it should be really easy to kill it with fire in the options menu.

[DocDoomII]

They already said that there will be little to none scaling.

 

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/60889-level-scaling-dont-scale-individual-enemies-scale-encounters/page__st__40#entry1219467

[Valorian]

They already said that there will be little to none scaling.

 

http://forums.obsidi...40#entry1219467

 

I know, but the way he put it.. it still leaves open the possibility of some level scaling. So if level scaling does find its way into PE, I'd like the option to get rid of it completely. That's one of the perks of reaching the stretch goal for modes.

[Chippy]

Just hit a point in DA:O where every enemy has scaled up. So now certain abilities are just pointless, I find my entire party wailing against a single enemy (which just drags the battle out) and characters that were good now feel totally inadequate. And I considered the scaling in DA:O less of a problem than in TES games.

 

Burn it with fire, however long it takes and whatever it's current HP.

[Remmirath]

Few people remember that Baldur's Gate 2 actually had level scaling. In several instances, the game will spawn different mobs depending on your level: there's even a component in SCS2 to force the game to always choose the hardest encounters.

 

That sort of level scaling is all right, in my opinion, so long as it's done as discretely as it was in Baldur's Gate II. Anything beyond that -- I say kill it with fire. I find it to be rather annoying to wander into an area that should be very difficult at low level and not have any more trouble with it than one would have at high level (I like the sense of the party getting in over their heads in some areas), and it's certainly frustrating for the same things to be just as difficult still at tenth level to kill as they were at first.

[timobkg]

In defense of level scaling

 

Level scaling is not the all or nothing proposition that the OP makes it out to be. You can use it to improve the game so long as it's done right. Level scaling done right is building zones and applying level scaling to those zones.

 

For example:

In the game you have expected zone progression. You expect to start in the beginning areas, Zone 1, then move on to the next areas, Zone 2, then the next, and eventually end up in the final and most difficult areas, Zone 6. In Zone 1, you can adventure in subsections 1a, or 1b, or 1c. The expectation is that you will complete 2-3 of the subsections before moving onto Zone 2, at around level 2.

 

Now, instead of making everything in Zone 1 level fixed at level 1, you set level scaling for that Zone to level 1-2. This way, the locations in Zone 1 will be equally challenging regardless of which order you decide to explore them in.

 

Zone 2, on the other hand, expects that you've already finished Zone 1, and thus is set to scale to level 2-4. If you want to skip Zone 1 and run straight to Zone 2, you can, but you're going to be at a disadvantage. If you explore every subsection of Zone 1, and thus are level 3 going into Zone 2, you'll still feel the same challenge as someone who's level 2.

 

If you're suicidal, you can run to one of the Zone 6 areas from the start and die immediately. But by the time you're high enough level to tackle the Zone 6 areas, scaled to lvl 9-10, Zone 1 and 2 areas (scaled at lvl 2 and lvl 4 respectively) are pushovers.

 

Thus, with level scaling, you have freedom of progression (you don't have tackle the areas in particular order), enhanced challenge (it takes longer to out-level an area), a sense of empowerment (you still out-level areas), reduced grinding (you can be lvl 9 or 10 to be on-level for the final areas), and better balance (Zone 2 combat isn't immediately a push-over because you decided to quest longer in Zone 1).

Edited October 8, 2012 by timobkg

[Tsuga C]

Good lord, NONONONONONONONO! Furthermore, I... Hmm, I think I'll make a topic about a related thought that just came to mind.

[Hobo The Clown]

Scaling is stupid and annoying. It also makes it a nuisance when trying to just head through the lower end zones to get to a different area i don't want to have to waste time killing the weak monsters again.

[Hassat Hunter]

It warms my heart that everyone wants to kill it with fire.

[elenuial]

If there was a non-fire option, I might go with that. Even Sun-Tzu thought fire was kind of harsh. But, yeah, no world-leveling plz.

[Michael_Galt]

So far I am liking what I am seeing. The fact that Obsidian actually gets to make this the way THEY want, and are taking direct feedback from the supporters/backers is perfect. I hate level scaling. The world doesn't level scale. I do support some sort of limited amount of scripting to try to get you from sabotaging yourself, along the lines of, "I wouldn't go into the __. I saw an entire squad of veteran paladins/__ go in and never come back." It isn't stopping you, but it is giving you warning.

Edited October 12, 2012 by Michael_Galt

[Silver6986]

Level scaling.

For me it's a curse of cRPGs. I prefer it when the monsters have a set level and venturing into a wild area means a death. I also love the feeling of an all powerful being that can kill a mere guard with a single strike.

 

What are your thoughts?

 

Absolutely agree!!

 

[Valorian]

"We will have very little level scaling and almost entirely in critical path areas since there's a lot of variability in when players approach them."

 

I don't get this.

 

Isn't it one of the logical aspects of a non-linear RP game to not be able to just walk through the plot at any level? What's so horrifying about having the player doing side quests and exploring the world to grow stronger and then face the tough critical path encounters?

If you choose to go at a lower level, deal with dire consequences. Why would the crit path adjust to the player by scaling encounters to his level?

[Keyrock]

I think the overwhelming response speaks for itself. Level scaling is a plague. Avoid it at all costs.

[Valorian]

What kind of example does this set for Bioware?

 

Bioware HQ: "Yeaah! What a relief! If they can get away with very little level scaling in PE, we're free to level scale every single creature, including NPC cats and dogs, in all our future games! Hell yeah!!"

Edited October 14, 2012 by Valorian

[ImNotCreative]

"We will have very little level scaling and almost entirely in critical path areas since there's a lot of variability in when players approach them."

 

I don't get this.

 

Isn't it one of the logical aspects of a non-linear RP game to not be able to just walk through the plot at any level? What's so horrifying about having the player doing side quests and exploring the world to grow stronger and then face the tough critical path encounters?

If you choose to go at a lower level, deal with dire consequences. Why would the crit path adjust to the player by scaling encounters to his level?

 

 

It's very simple, almost all players aren't going to do all side quests no matter how much of them are in the game, because they got bored, because of role playing or they don't find them all. Problem arises when there are a lot of side quests because different players will begin main quest at different level, and encounters without level scaling are interesting only if you approach them at certain level range otherwise they are either boring or impossible. Main quest is usually the best part of the game and it is really disappointing when part of it is boring to you because you are stomping everything on your way. I find this problem in a lot of games without any level scaling because I like doing side quests but I always have to be careful and from time to time complete main quests although I don't fell like it because I don't want to overlevel.

 

Limited level scaling (within certain limits it doesn't have to scale exactly to your level nor below certain point) ensures that parts of the game on which developers spent most time remain challenging and interesting to all players and it enables you to complete as much side quests as you want (again within certain limits) without thinking if you have done too little or too much. Look at Fallout:NV for an example of good level scaling, I don't know why everybody thinks that the only way to implement level scaling is like in Oblivion.

[Justinian]

Josh said they would implement level scaling like in New Vegas, so I'm curious about how well it worked there since I've never played it.

[Valorian]

 

It's very simple, almost all players aren't going to do all side quests no matter how much of them are in the game, because they got bored, because of role playing or they don't find them all. Problem arises when there are a lot of side quests because different players will begin main quest at different level, and encounters without level scaling are interesting only if you approach them at certain level range otherwise they are either boring or impossible. Main quest is usually the best part of the game and it is really disappointing when part of it is boring to you because you are stomping everything on your way. I find this problem in a lot of games without any level scaling because I like doing side quests but I always have to be careful and from time to time complete main quests although I don't fell like it because I don't want to overlevel.

 

Limited level scaling (within certain limits it doesn't have to scale exactly to your level nor below certain point) ensures that parts of the game on which developers spent most time remain challenging and interesting to all players and it enables you to complete as much side quests as you want (again within certain limits) without thinking if you have done too little or too much. Look at Fallout:NV for an example of good level scaling, I don't know why everybody thinks that the only way to implement level scaling is like in Oblivion.

 

This kind of reasoning (crit plot crit path and movieplot only omg!!) brought us the abomination of level scaling in the first place.

 

The whole game is a set of plots and little stories. The critical path is only one of them. The player should reasonably expect that the critical path has some of the toughest combat encounters in the game.

 

Why should designers accommodate a minority that is only interested in railroading themselves through the critical path (movie-style) ignoring the rest of the game, and ruin the experience for everyone else by introducing this nonsense?

 

These critical path encounters won't be boring if, logically, they're some of the toughest fights in the game. You want to beat them? Stop crying, explore the world, train with your weapons and spells, find some powerful artifacts and then come back and deal with the big bads. Level scaling is not needed at all for them to not be boring.. what is needed is just some player/designer common sense.

[ImNotCreative]

It's very simple, almost all players aren't going to do all side quests no matter how much of them are in the game, because they got bored, because of role playing or they don't find them all. Problem arises when there are a lot of side quests because different players will begin main quest at different level, and encounters without level scaling are interesting only if you approach them at certain level range otherwise they are either boring or impossible. Main quest is usually the best part of the game and it is really disappointing when part of it is boring to you because you are stomping everything on your way. I find this problem in a lot of games without any level scaling because I like doing side quests but I always have to be careful and from time to time complete main quests although I don't fell like it because I don't want to overlevel.

 

Limited level scaling (within certain limits it doesn't have to scale exactly to your level nor below certain point) ensures that parts of the game on which developers spent most time remain challenging and interesting to all players and it enables you to complete as much side quests as you want (again within certain limits) without thinking if you have done too little or too much. Look at Fallout:NV for an example of good level scaling, I don't know why everybody thinks that the only way to implement level scaling is like in Oblivion.

 

This kind of reasoning (crit plot crit path and movieplot only omg!!) brought us the abomination of level scaling in the first place.

 

The whole game is a set of plots and little stories. The critical path is only one of them. The player should reasonably expect that the critical path has some of the toughest combat encounters in the game.

 

Why should designers accommodate a minority that is only interested in railroading themselves through the critical path (movie-style) ignoring the rest of the game, and ruin the experience for everyone else by introducing this nonsense?

 

These critical path encounters won't be boring if, logically, they're some of the toughest fights in the game. You want to beat them? Stop crying, explore the world, train with your weapons and spells, find some powerful artifacts and then come back and deal with the big bads. Level scaling is not needed at all for them to not be boring.. what is needed is just some player/designer common sense.

 

You should check you reading comprehension, I was talking about over leveling. From what you are saying I guess that only way you can deal with tough encounters is grind side quests and find +x equipment MMO stile. Don't worry you will be able to do that because level scaling is probably going to be limited.

[dlux]

The infinity engine games had encounter scaling (and not level scaling), but it was used sparsly and only to balance some encounters that would have otherwise been trivial if your level was too high - by adding a lich to a pack of ghouls for example. If they are planning on using a system like this - good.

 

New Vegas on the other hand used a different system - the entire main campaign was level scaled, i.e. if you were level 10, the enemies were also level 10. This was not true for side quests and certain areas. If you sidetracked from the main quest and ran into a swarm of cazadores, they were tough to kill - especially at the beginning of the game - because they were not level scaled. The game basically gave you the feeling that it was not level scaled, even though it was.

 

In New Vegas the optional side quests were actually optional. You did not have to do a single side quest and could breeze through to the end of the game without any problems. The sidequests were basically just filler for some story and "lolz", but they were of course still enjoyable and were not totally worthless because of the items and cash you received for doing them

If, on the other hand, you played New Vegas on hard + hardcore mode, side tracking and doing side quests was somewhat of a necessity. Water, good ammo, stimpacks, etc. were somewhat rare, so you needed to stock up occasionally.

 

Anyway, we really have no idea on what exactly they are going to implement, because they have been pretty tight lipped about this subject, but we will just have to give them the benefit of the doubt I guess. All I can really say is that it does not make much sense to me to approach the level/encounter scaling differently than what was in the IE-Engine games, because PE is supposed to be their spiritual successor.

It does actually worry me a bit, that PE is supposed to use level scaling similarly to what we had in New Vegas.... The system in New Vegas was okay, nothing spectacular and definitely not on par with the system used in the IE games, but if they can improve upon that, then maybe it won't be that bad. Maybe it will even be very (very) good.

Edited October 14, 2012 by dlux