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Dialogue in Eternity  

365 members have voted

  1. 1. Just dialogue or dialogue + descriptions?

    • Hello there! Care to peruse my wares?
      75
    • "Hello there!" he says enthusiastically, but his eyes shift from left to right. "Care to peruse my wares?"
      290
  2. 2. Skill prerequirements in dialogue or chance to fail?

    • You see a dialogue option and know it will succeed (you have the prerequisites)
      130
    • You have a percentage chance to succeed (e.g. 65% on a bluff check)
      143
    • You see what kind of stats you need to have in order to succeed
      92


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@RogueBurger

 

I want to play a game not a LARPing simulator.

Then play the game, restrict your actions to your arbitrary scale of choice, and have fun! The beauty of freedom is that you can you're perfectly free to give that freedom up! But as long as the freedom is there, everyone choose their restrictions personally. Why must your choice of restrictions restrict everyone else? Enjoy your character however you want! And everyone else can do the same.


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Having all dialogue options would feel like cheating to me, because a dumb main character just wouldn't be able to form a highly philosophical answer, while an intelligent but physicly weak person wouldn't intimidate with physical strength. I would like to see the dialogue options hidden that do not fit the character. But of course it would be nice to have it a bit balanced (so every skill having positive effect in appropriate moments and not just 1 skill like intelligence that dominates dialogue - because then everyone would take this skill anyway). Then the game would also give a good replay value.

PLEASE don't show any skills or percentages in dialogue. I don't mind percentages of success influencing the dialogue in background though. In well written RPGs percentages/skill levels and such destroy immerson/flow for me.

Edited by Rink

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@RogueBurger

 

I want to play a game not a LARPing simulator.

Then play the game, restrict your actions to your arbitrary scale of choice, and have fun! The beauty of freedom is that you can you're perfectly free to give that freedom up! But as long as the freedom is there, everyone choose their restrictions personally. Why must your choice of restrictions restrict everyone else? Enjoy your character however you want! And everyone else can do the same.

 

I disagree sooo hard. This freedom you're talking about ruins soo many games. Just think about World of Warcraft or Skyrim for an example.

Both these games have quest tracking, fast travel (Skyrim has worse fast travel), bugs that make you able to kite an enemy for eternity making you able to kill w/e.

 

All these things, no matter if they are "freedom" or not, tends to ruin immersion and a good game. I don't care if I don't have to use these things, but I bloody will if I can even if I hate them.

 

Why do you think games such as DayZ are popular? Because of it being hardcore, not letting you have any magical freedom that would not exist in the real world. Yea it is an fantasy game, but it does bloody not sound realistic with this freedom you are talking about. It ruins immersion as hell.

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Looks like there is a clear preference with the first question with the second is relatively evenly distributed. Could the second question be enabled by way of a game preference? I imagine the engine would be using a probablity calculation and a virtual dice, so what to be displayed could be a game preference as the underlying game calculation/dymanics shouldn't change.

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My ideal choice would be hidden percentages with a fluctuating 'Difficulty Check' depending on the [Diplomacy] dialogue chosen.

 

But that's a bit much, so either Hidden percentages or even Hidden statics are fine by me.

Percentage chance to succeed. There should never be an "I win" button in the dialogue.

 

A bad argument would be to say that the reload button kinda becomes braindead 'I win' in there. But limiting save scumming isn't something you regularly see in western developers so whatever.

 

@RogueBurger

 

I want to play a game not a LARPing simulator.

Then play the game, restrict your actions to your arbitrary scale of choice, and have fun! The beauty of freedom is that you can you're perfectly free to give that freedom up! But as long as the freedom is there, everyone choose their restrictions personally. Why must your choice of restrictions restrict everyone else? Enjoy your character however you want! And everyone else can do the same.

 

No, thank you. Excusing thorougly bad game design isn't something I like to do.

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My ideal choice would be hidden percentages with a fluctuating 'Difficulty Check' depending on the [Diplomacy] dialogue chosen.

 

I like that idea. Like following:

 

1. Dismantle the NPC with your spell of dismantle weapon [43-67% chance of success]

2. ....

3. ....

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Of course I pretend descriptions during dialogues, but I don't want any kind of skill tag, at least before I select my line.

Tags help players to take the "right" decision during dialogues, and I don't want obviously right decisions in this game. "Winning" a dialogue should be a challenge not a mechanical sequence of clicks....

I would love a system where

- high skill/stat score = smart line (without tag)

- low sill/stat score = silly line (again without tag)

 

I like that ) or you could only see the additional answer if you have particular skill, but chance of success should be based on stat-skill level and *luck*. I would love to see person with 18-20 Intelligence, Maxed out speech skill ... to fail * persuasion attempt (dialog line)* from time to time.

 

In my ideal dialogue system using a skill (or a stat) with an high score doesn't assure you a positive result. I.E.: if you use soft manners with a character that can be persuaded only through brute force, you fail, even if you have 100/100 in diplomacy. So, paradoxically, if you lack the diplomacy option in a case like this you are advantaged.

This is why having a dumb line with a low score instead of no line at all is important.

 

PS: a passive skill that gives you hints about the personality of the character you are speaking with would complete the system.

Edited by Baudolino05

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I didn't aswer the second question in the poll, because no answer really satisfied me. The way I'd see it, it'd be "You see a dialogue option and so you know it's available to you". Have available options depend on skills/attributes/whatever, but don't raise a flag saying "this option is only here because you have skill X". Doing that pretty much tells you that this option is beneficial and should absolutely be taken. Removing such flags would creating increase the difficulty of navigating succesfully through a conversation, and add nifty little discoveries when replaying. As in "huh, this option wasn't there the first time around. That's pretty cool I guess".

 

Also, I'd advise against having a "roll" made to determine success or failure. In a conversation, my character either knows something or doesn't. It doesn't make much sense to subject something like convincing people to random chance.

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My ideal choice would be hidden percentages with a fluctuating 'Difficulty Check' depending on the [Diplomacy] dialogue chosen.

 

I like that idea. Like following:

 

1. Dismantle the NPC with your spell of dismantle weapon [43-67% chance of success]

2. ....

3. ....

 

Actually, I envisioned something like applying bonuses for certain skills and whatnot.

 

1. Persuade <faction member X> with the following words <A>.

2. Persuade <faction member X> with the following words <B>.

 

You'd get, say, 5% bonus for being a member of faction X, - 20% if you're member/sympathetic to rival faction and words <A> and <B> could be a game unto themselves, <A> happens to be good (+5%) and <B> neutral or bad (nothing or -5%).

 

I can't stress enough that these bonuses and the difficulty check would be hidden. You gotta have some suspense (which, incidentaly, might even punish save scumming if it turns out that neither [pure dialogue] choice is actually beneficial).

 

So a spell of disarm could be affected by the spellcraft skill or whatever (mind you, that sort of thing is best left to combat itself - if a character was estabilished as having relatively low morale, disarming him might cause surrender, Gameplay and Story Integration and all that).

Edited by Delterius

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I HATE skill markers in dialogue, they make me feel out of the game and feel unnecessary, but I do like skill checks.

 

Also, descriptions a la Planescape: Torment would be fantastic, please do include them!

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I really like dialogue choices in my game but I never liked the amount you had in Torment. It was just too much for some dialogues. The one I really liked was the one in Baldurs Gate but also Neverwinter Nights 2. This was in my opinion the perfect amount. Maybe here and there some extra choices but that was basically it.

 

Please not again a Torment Dialogue system....

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Please not again a Torment Dialogue system....

 

Again? How many games with such a system do you know? Please tell me i want to play them all

 

kind regards,

 

Jira

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Please not again a Torment Dialogue system....

 

Again? How many games with such a system do you know? Please tell me i want to play them all

 

kind regards,

 

Jira

 

Again in the sense I dont want to play it again for the second time. It was just too much sometime you had like 15 choices and some of them did not really differ that much. It was really a chore.

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I want descriptive text, I also want new dialog options to open up based on my skill/stats/abilities/what items I am carrying/knowledge I have.

  • Like 1

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Interesting. I actually disliked the descriptions and such in Planescape, as I no longer felt I was truly conversing with someone, so I would very much like the dialogue done in the style of Baldur's Gate II.

That's my issue with descriptions within the dialogue lines. It can easily become a situation where I start feeling like I'm reading an omniscient perspective novel sentence structure. There's nothing wrong with that, but it certainly doesn't feel like a conversation ... plus it can sometimes impose an emotional interpretation vs. allowing the player to imagine for themselves.

 

So, dialogue only for me. (edit: altho, using bracketed, short action-description is sometimes okay as long as it doesn't become a constant thing, for example: "Hello there!" [the man scowls] "Where are you off to?" )

 

The 2nd part of the poll I'm less sure on, but probably one of the first two.

Edited by LadyCrimson

“Things are as they are. Looking out into the universe at night, we make no comparisons between right and wrong stars, nor between well and badly arranged constellations.” – Alan Watts

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I would rather have my skills and variables open up new dialogue options if I have the prerequisites than for all options to be present but greyed out if I don't.


The area between the balls and the butt is a hotbed of terrorist activity.

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1) Descriptive text really adds to the richness of interpretation the game can provide. Absolutely, yes.

 

2) Show the value of the skill which was required to make an option appear. But hide any option which is unavailable because a skill is too low. The player doesn't feel punished for what they do not have. They merely feel rewarded for making their character as they did.

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Same way game are NOT balanced all the time: difficulty levels. Balance means something different to every single person playing a single-player game. You give templates that are classified as easy, medium, and hard. But you give people the ability to ignore that. The key is don't restrict. Give people tools to do what they want, and do it well. Don't force them to do something they don't want just because you think that makes the game too easy for them. If they can clearly see what an average person looks like, then they know full well they are making a demi-god.

It's obvious you don't like RPGs. So why not just play adventure games or Skyrim which doesn't have stats? It's up to the developer to balance the game experience around what the player should be able to do. A first time player isn't going to know what he should or shouldn't be able to do with his characters and how the game is balanced. A character with 8 Intelligence shouldn't be able to make intelligent dialogue choices. Just like a player with 8 Strength shouldn't be able to successfully threaten a character with a larger strength. If you don't like it, too bad. That's the way it's always been and best way it can be so far. If you want to use a trainer to max out all your characters stats so you have all the dialogue choices and avoid any challenge to the game, go ahead. But no one else should be forced into such an insipid game.

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Dialogue with descriptions all the way. You need descriptions in a text-based game at some point of course, might as well use them everywhere to liven things up. Just be sure not to make things overlong - as much as I love Planescape, sometimes the game was unnecessarily long-winded, especially with unimportant NPCs.

 

Skill checks are a different story. I think that if a given dialogue line is something that the player could only know if he/she possessed a degree of knowledge or skill, it should always be visible and always work. On the other hand, if a line is meant to be persuasive or deceptive, it should have a percentage chance associated with it. This reflects the fact that people can use knowledge or skill to persuade others, but of course can't speak about certain things without that knowledge or skill.

 

In general I am in favour of skill tags showing up, but not percentage chances for success. It should already be obvious based on the text whether I won or lost a check. In order to make it a bit more clear if the player can succeed or not, perhaps a skill check could be removed if the player has a less than 10-20% chance of passing, just to simulate the fact that you still need a base level of acuity to be able to make an attempt in the first place.

Edited by sea

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I prefer it Planescape/Arcanum style, where the system hides options from you, if you don't meet their prerequisite, and you don't get an indicator about which option appears why (so no "[Persuasion]" before the persuasive option). But I'd be also content with being presented with all options but not shown the thresholds I have to meet in order to succeed.

  • Like 1

"Lulz is not the highest aspiration of art and mankind, no matter what the Encyclopedia Dramatica says."

 

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I think you should provide a new option in this dialogue poll.

 

If someone needs to bluff, they would see the option if it's possible but possibly not the chance they have. If they don't have the skill they might still see the option but the player *might* realize it's a snowball's chance in Miami bath salts to succeed. All the same, the degree to which they're successful might still be dependent on skill. Fortune and accidental circumstance are only a tiny portion of any victory.


"This is what most people do not understand about Colbert and Silverman. They only mock fictional celebrities, celebrities who destroy their selfhood to unify with the wants of the people, celebrities who are transfixed by the evil hungers of the public. Feed us a Gomorrah built up of luminous dreams, we beg. Here it is, they say, and it looks like your steaming brains."

 

" If you've read Hart's Hope, Neveryona, Infinity Concerto, Tales of the Flat Earth, you've pretty much played Dragon Age."

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Interesting poll.

I'm in favor of the presence of percentage of success's chance, and I was sure this option will win easily. I was wrong^^.


Dark Goddess of the Obsidian Order.

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If I may state my opinion, I'm a bit of a purist, and I believe the dialgue mechanics from Planescape: Torment were simply perfect. There were tons of ways in which your dialogue choices and options could be modified/altered : previous choices, statistics, items you possess, the faction you belong to...and so on, yet they were never indicated in any way.

Such an attitude makes ones choices within a dialogue much more natural, since instead of thinking "Oh, this panel says that thanks to my high Intelligence I can say this, so therefore I should say this!" you'll pick the choice most fitting your own tastes and the moral compass you adopted for your character.

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