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Dialogue in Eternity  

365 members have voted

  1. 1. Just dialogue or dialogue + descriptions?

    • Hello there! Care to peruse my wares?
      75
    • "Hello there!" he says enthusiastically, but his eyes shift from left to right. "Care to peruse my wares?"
      290
  2. 2. Skill prerequirements in dialogue or chance to fail?

    • You see a dialogue option and know it will succeed (you have the prerequisites)
      130
    • You have a percentage chance to succeed (e.g. 65% on a bluff check)
      143
    • You see what kind of stats you need to have in order to succeed
      92


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Baldur's Gate had only dialogues.

Planescape: Torment had dialogues and descriptions/narration (which I think added a lot of depth). To an extent, narration was reintroduced to some NWN expansions (HotU and MotB).

 

Also, some stats and skills either opened new dialogue options (both BG and Planescape had them as prerequisites) or allowed you to make checks (Fallout 3). In Fallout: New Vegas you knew in advance that you could succeed a check only if you had this or that prerequisite.

 

What would you like to see in Eternity?

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Would like to see a dialog system like Planescape with narration and stuff and i would like to see that you can influence the

direction with the choices that you make and not only get to the same conclusion with every choice you make.

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For the first section, I want clean, straight-up dialog like the first example, but I want narrative descriptions as well. They would both be separate for me.

 

None of the above for for the second section. I want to see a qualitative dialog system instead of the usual quantitative system. I dislike conversation and persuasion stats with a passion. I would love to see a relationship system within the game that is based off building a reputation within the game itself (not on a character creation screen), and where each npc reacts differently to that reputation based on their own disposition and how much they've actually heard and seen.

Edited by RogueBurger

Me, summed up in less than 50 words:

PHP | cRPGs | Daft Punk | Dominion | WKUK | Marvel Comics | INTP | Python | Symphonic Metal | Breakfast Tacos | Phenomenology | Cards Against Humanity | Awkward Hugs | Scott Pilgrim | Voluntaryism | Dave Chappelle | Calvin and Hobbes | Coffee | Doctor Who | TI-BASIC | eBooks | Jeans | Fantasy Short Stories | Soccer | Mac 'N Cheese | Stargate | Hegel | White Mountains | SNES | Booty Swing | Avocado |

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Interesting. I actually disliked the descriptions and such in Planescape, as I no longer felt I was truly conversing with someone, so I would very much like the dialogue done in the style of Baldur's Gate II. And I would also like to see the return of the percentage chance to succeed. Just knowing that you will succeed no matter what is boring, and not being aware that matters could have been handled in a different way sucks even more. Seeing that there was something you could have done which you simply were not skilled enough to do always makes me want to play through the game again with a different character.

Edited by FreezingShock

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Definitely like to see narration along with the dialogue - it adds a lot of depth and atmosphere.

 

Regarding skill checks - I'd like to see all the options and have a skill check when you select it. I definitely like the sense of taking a risk if you threaten or try to bribe someone for example, rather than the dull certainly that you'll succeed.


Still playing through Planescape Torment...

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For the first section, I want clean, straight-up dialog like the first example, but I want narrative descriptions as well. They would both be separate for me.

 

None of the above for for the second section. I want to see a qualitative dialog system instead of the usual quantitative system. I dislike conversation and persuasion stats with a passion. I would love to see a relationship system within the game that is based off building a reputation within the game itself (not on a character creation screen), and where each npc reacts differently to that reputation based on their own disposition and how much they've actually heard and seen.

I may be dense but I do not understand what you mean - could you elaborate a little?


Say no to popamole!

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I think descriptions are good to have, if the game goes the same "dialog box" way as Planescape: Torment, the Baldur's Gate games and Icewind Dale. Including it alongside dialogue also allows the same system to be used, later, for interaction with things that don't talk to you. Like, say, walls. It would also be useful when investigating a scene, for instance.

 

Regarding skills and their relevance, that really depends on the system that the game will be using, and so I think it's a little premature to elect a preference, as it will all be rather academic. A lot of players, including myself, will always pick the skills that give them the most options to talk with people, and I think that's a sound enough system.

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For the first section, I want clean, straight-up dialog like the first example, but I want narrative descriptions as well. They would both be separate for me.

 

None of the above for for the second section. I want to see a qualitative dialog system instead of the usual quantitative system. I dislike conversation and persuasion stats with a passion. I would love to see a relationship system within the game that is based off building a reputation within the game itself (not on a character creation screen), and where each npc reacts differently to that reputation based on their own disposition and how much they've actually heard and seen.

I may be dense but I do not understand what you mean - could you elaborate a little?

I assume you mean the second paragraph?

 

Essentially I don't want to see my conversation stat rolled against an NPC's conversation stat to produce either a percentage of success or a pass/fail dialog choice. What I want to see is instead of my character having a bluff stat (or charisma stat, or whatever other stat) I'd like my previous actions and dialog choices to determine whether I can bluff an NPC. If I do shady things around town, and the innkeeper has heard mention of me around the bar, I want that to affect his trust of me. If I killed the last town's innkeeper, I'd hope that would go towards making him quake in his boots, or maybe the exact opposite happens and he'll pretend to trust me but try to poison me. The possibilities are endless as far as the actual content of the relationships, I would just like to have every NPC react to how I've played my character in the 5/10/50/100 hours of doing things in his or her world, as opposed to reacting to some number I set before even starting the game. I envision every NPC having access to different amounts of knowledge of and experience with the player, and everyone of them having their own personality which takes those events and develops a complex relationship with the player that is non-linear and hopefully much more organic than a simple stat roll.

Edited by RogueBurger
  • Like 3

Me, summed up in less than 50 words:

PHP | cRPGs | Daft Punk | Dominion | WKUK | Marvel Comics | INTP | Python | Symphonic Metal | Breakfast Tacos | Phenomenology | Cards Against Humanity | Awkward Hugs | Scott Pilgrim | Voluntaryism | Dave Chappelle | Calvin and Hobbes | Coffee | Doctor Who | TI-BASIC | eBooks | Jeans | Fantasy Short Stories | Soccer | Mac 'N Cheese | Stargate | Hegel | White Mountains | SNES | Booty Swing | Avocado |

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Personally I'd like a bit of a mix for the first section, I like having the extra flavour of the descriptive text but it can detract when it's right in the middle of a sentence. Maybe to strike a happy medium have both descriptive text and dialogue but split when it is displayed, so alternate between the words that are said and the actions that go with it.

 

As for the second point, this is one thing that does niggle at me when it's poorly implemented. I dislike the style where if you have spent so many skill points in a skill then you get an extra dialogue option that declares that you can use it because you meet the prerequisite and pressing it is highly likely to have an advantageous outcome compared to any of the dialogue options. Similarly I dislike being told that I failed at a rational argument because the Random Number Gods said so.

What I would like is to have visibility of all the dialogue options and the skills that would be used for them, but no way of knowing if I meet the prerequisite other than my own sense of my character. If I'm chasing a character through the rooftops then I have a pretty good idea of whether it's a good idea to try and jump a gap based on if I'm playing an acrobatic thief or a warrior in full plate so I can make my own judgement. What the system is behind the curtain could be as simple as meeting a prereq or as complicated as taking into account reputation (in dialogue), past actions or equipped items etc, but I'd like to be given multiple options using a variety of skills and decide for myself what the best course is.

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For the first section, I want clean, straight-up dialog like the first example, but I want narrative descriptions as well. They would both be separate for me.

 

None of the above for for the second section. I want to see a qualitative dialog system instead of the usual quantitative system. I dislike conversation and persuasion stats with a passion. I would love to see a relationship system within the game that is based off building a reputation within the game itself (not on a character creation screen), and where each npc reacts differently to that reputation based on their own disposition and how much they've actually heard and seen.

I may be dense but I do not understand what you mean - could you elaborate a little?

I assume you mean the second paragraph?

 

Essentially I don't want to see my conversation stat rolled against an NPC's conversation stat to produce either a percentage of success or a pass/fail dialog choice. What I want to see is instead of my character having a bluff stat (or charisma stat, or whatever other stat) I'd like my previous actions and dialog choices to determine whether I can bluff an NPC. If I do shady things around town, and the innkeeper has heard mention of me around the bar, I want that to affect his trust of me. If I killed the last town's innkeeper, I'd hope that would go towards making him quake in his boots, or maybe the exact opposite happens and he'll pretend to trust me but try to poison me. The possibilities are endless as far as the actual content of the relationships, I would just like to have every NPC react to how I've played my character in the 5/10/50/100 hours of doing things in his or her world, as opposed to reacting to some number I set before even starting the game.

But all these things can be done while retaining the conversation skills via reaction modifiers. I think there should be some way to measure the strengths the character has at communicating. I mean even if there are rumours going around town how you have previously murdered entire staff of the tavern (+5 to intimidation checks) when you are in reality a stuttering nervous wreck that can't keep a conversation going (low skills) the new innkeeper might very well laugh in your face (after which point you have to murder him too, oh well).

  • Like 1

Say no to popamole!

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It is what it is. The obvious, mentioned skill checks in NWN dialogue and alike were banal. I agree that the dialogue should rely on outcomes and relations. If it's too hard to implement then you might as well make whatever skill checks hidden and still have a good script, not the clear functionality of all dialogue in NWN 1. The PERSUADE choice in NWN 1 destroyed the immersion and dialogue so badly...

 

Likewise, there WERE descriptions of people's appearances but they were hidden behind right-click -> description and were most of the time generic/not helpful in trying to predict background or intentions or anything (althrough you never needed to guess people's intentions due to bad script anyways). If description was more easily accesible, it means that you can see somebody a little further ahead (without them noticing you)... you can deduct that even if the guy is Neutral to you/non-hostile, you realize that guy is Bad News and try to find another way to the place behind him... the above tin-soldiers of BG give only so much information of intentions! :p

 

I was thinking that there might be a way to increase the dialogue options but it might rely on a new type of alignment system... that your personality type or tendencies or your general personality description would pick whether you are direct, dispolite, temperament or whatever in dialogue. Sort of similiar system is the low-int heroes in Fallouts.

This isn't as impossible as it sounds btw! Ofc some of the dialogue choices leads to somewhat similiar results despite differences in tone but how else do you describe the heroes/PC's "supposed" personality, unless you want to ditch alignment completely... besides, some personality types or attributes would lead to extra options. Like observer above would lead to hero taking mental notes on HOW people act in conversations, higher intelligence leads to quick and better logic detuctions (if somebody puts something and moves the hand closer to hero, hero has choice of "What did you just hide there").

Likewise, with either randomed or choosed "past" (thus personality traits) for PC, you will have stat modifiers and possible new abilites (i liked Arcanums idea a LOT for slight hero customization & RPG elements, also reminds me of IWD lizard-guy trait) for the PC/NPC's. PC can see his personality traits but cannot see other peoples personaity, thus the freedom for writing for NPC personalities and avoiding the cliche "CHAOTIC NEUTRAL, I AM DADA" or "LAWFUL EVIL, MUAHAHA" and likewise. Greyshades i saw in Kotor 2!!

also like somebody said earlier somewhere - with grey shades/this, the strange polar opposite decisions of being mr.nice guy, then turning sides in the quest makes sense. (GAINED 2 CHAOTIC POINT! YOU ARE NOW "CHAOTIC MENACE"! YOU LOST YOUR CLASS!! whoops, time to go to church and donate 100 gold until i'm not fallen again...)

 

So in a nutshell, personality traits would bring stat modifiers/skills/interesting customization while selecting the selection of tones and options for dialog to other people in the world. If there are Int Wis Char and whatever skills, they affect as well. You might see holes in this but think about that this should be POSSIBLE to implement and I don't think this has been done before + would work.

Edited by IEfan

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I would prefer there be no indication of what skills, traits, etc. effect the options in dialogue. It makes creating different characters feel more like a unique experience if I have no idea what they will be capable of. I am also a lot less likely to become fixated on gaming the system to make 'perfect' replies when there are no indicators. In other words, don't tell me how or why dialogue options are available or how effective they will be. It is more entertaining to just go with it and see what happens.


Grandiose statements, cryptic warnings, blind fanboyisim and an opinion that leaves no room for argument and will never be dissuaded. Welcome to the forums, you'll go far in this place my boy, you'll go far!

 

The people who are a part of the "Fallout Community" have been refined and distilled over time into glittering gems of hatred.

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But all these things can be done while retaining the conversation skills via reaction modifiers. I think there should be some way to measure the strengths the character has at communicating. I mean even if there are rumours going around town how you have previously murdered entire staff of the tavern (+5 to intimidation checks) when you are in reality a stuttering nervous wreck that can't keep a conversation going (low skills) the new innkeeper might very well laugh in your face (after which point you have to murder him too, oh well).

Why does that need to be a stat? Give me 10 dialog options to choose from, and make the more nervous sounding one have a negative impact on the innkeeper. I don't need a stat system to tell me what I am and am not allow to say, I want to say whatever I want my character to say and develop his personality myself.


Me, summed up in less than 50 words:

PHP | cRPGs | Daft Punk | Dominion | WKUK | Marvel Comics | INTP | Python | Symphonic Metal | Breakfast Tacos | Phenomenology | Cards Against Humanity | Awkward Hugs | Scott Pilgrim | Voluntaryism | Dave Chappelle | Calvin and Hobbes | Coffee | Doctor Who | TI-BASIC | eBooks | Jeans | Fantasy Short Stories | Soccer | Mac 'N Cheese | Stargate | Hegel | White Mountains | SNES | Booty Swing | Avocado |

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I would like the game to avoid "[Persuasion: 32/50]" thing.

 

As for others, I voted for narrative (obviously, as it will substitute for cutscenes and facial animation) and no percentage or alike (because a lot of gamers are completionists and that would just lead to savescumming).

Edited by Shadenuat

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I'd prefer not to know if the dialog option will succeed, or even what stat influences success. But I can ignore such indicators.

 

I definitely want description in addition to dialog though. No reason not to have it! You can change it based on the character's perception too, if that were to be a stat.

Edited by Jozape
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Why does that need to be a stat? Give me 10 dialog options to choose from, and make the more nervous sounding one have a negative impact on the innkeeper. I don't need a stat system to tell me what I am and am not allow to say, I want to say whatever I want my character to say and develop his personality myself.

Because it's not an adventure game? Next thing I could say is that I don't need attributes and my character will just bend these iron bars because that's what I believe he should be able to do.

EDIT: Can't spell worth a damn.

Edited by evdk

Say no to popamole!

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Why does that need to be a stat? Give me 10 dialog options to choose from, and make the more nervous sounding one have a negative impact on the innkeeper. I don't need a stat system to tell me what I am and am not allow to say, I want to say whatever I want my character to say and develop his personality myself.

Because it's not a adventure game? Next thing I could say is that I don't need attributes and my character will just bend these iron bars because that's what I believe he should be able to do.

If you want to roleplay a brute, why should the system arbitrarily prevent you from doing that? I've played BG2 runs where my stats were modded to they're max, because if I want to play a demigod I should be able to. The restriction of the game engine aside, why does the game have to hold your hand? Are you scared that you won't stick to the character you're roleplaying just because the option is there? It boggles my mind that people want restrictions.

I want a roleplaying game that is more open, not more restricted.

Edited by RogueBurger

Me, summed up in less than 50 words:

PHP | cRPGs | Daft Punk | Dominion | WKUK | Marvel Comics | INTP | Python | Symphonic Metal | Breakfast Tacos | Phenomenology | Cards Against Humanity | Awkward Hugs | Scott Pilgrim | Voluntaryism | Dave Chappelle | Calvin and Hobbes | Coffee | Doctor Who | TI-BASIC | eBooks | Jeans | Fantasy Short Stories | Soccer | Mac 'N Cheese | Stargate | Hegel | White Mountains | SNES | Booty Swing | Avocado |

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I am not sure I understand the second poll. I like to see the skill needed for a succes, but I don't want to previously know the exact value of the skill. So in this regard I prefer F:NV style without values and without coloring (for example red = no chance of succes)

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If you want to roleplay a brute, why should the system arbitrarily prevent you from doing that? I've played BG2 runs where my stats were modded to they're max, because if I want to play a demigod I should be able to. The restriction of the game engine aside, why does the game have to hold your hand? Are you scared that you won't stick to the character you're roleplaying just because the option is there? It boggles my mind that people want restrictions.

I want a roleplaying game that is more open, not more restricted.

Because restrictions can be challenging. Just tell me, did you like Oblivion?


Say no to popamole!

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"Hello there!" he says enthusiastically, but his eyes shift from left to right. "Care to peruse my wares?"

 

Only this, no Voice acting pease.

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I am not sure I understand the second poll. I like to see the skill needed for a succes, but I don't want to previously know the exact value of the skill. So in this regard I prefer F:NV style without values and without coloring (for example red = no chance of succes)

 

That's the third option in the second question. In F:NV you do see what kind of stat you need for something to succeed. So, if you've got Barter [45/50], you know it's time to find some magazines or level up, but until then you will just fail in that dialogue option.

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If you want to roleplay a brute, why should the system arbitrarily prevent you from doing that? I've played BG2 runs where my stats were modded to they're max, because if I want to play a demigod I should be able to. The restriction of the game engine aside, why does the game have to hold your hand? Are you scared that you won't stick to the character you're roleplaying just because the option is there? It boggles my mind that people want restrictions.

I want a roleplaying game that is more open, not more restricted.

Because restrictions can be challenging. Just tell me, did you like Oblivion?

If you want restrictions, restrict yourself! That's the whole point! If you build a game with X number of restrictions, you have X number of restrictions, the end. If you build a game with open-ended system, you can play the game however you want. Maybe you want to play a character who is normally super eloquent, but can't say two syllables together in front of women. You have the dialog options for that and you can manage your character's personality yourself. Maybe you want to play a half-orc (or whatever the token brutish race is in the system) who is actually very intelligent, but prefers to hide it and speak like a 3 year old like the rest of his kind, but occasionally if you win over his trust, he'll break out and have real conversations. The possibilities are endless when the game doesn't arbitrarily restrict you to the molds it thinks you should fall into. And as long as the options are there, you can still play all those typical modes.

 

I'd give vanilla Oblivion a 7.0/10; the stat system was quite broken in my opinion. Fully modded with my slew of choice mods, 8.9/10.


Me, summed up in less than 50 words:

PHP | cRPGs | Daft Punk | Dominion | WKUK | Marvel Comics | INTP | Python | Symphonic Metal | Breakfast Tacos | Phenomenology | Cards Against Humanity | Awkward Hugs | Scott Pilgrim | Voluntaryism | Dave Chappelle | Calvin and Hobbes | Coffee | Doctor Who | TI-BASIC | eBooks | Jeans | Fantasy Short Stories | Soccer | Mac 'N Cheese | Stargate | Hegel | White Mountains | SNES | Booty Swing | Avocado |

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