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[Update 02.10.12] Project Eternity: Known Information

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^

Yeah. From what's been said, it sounds like they aren't trying to get rid of the entire healing mechanic, altogether. They just want it to be a more strategic support mechanic, rather than a sustained battle role. More situationally beneficial than always-beneficial.


Should we not start with some Ipelagos, or at least some Greater Ipelagos, before tackling a named Arch Ipelago? 6_u

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^

Yeah, remove healing and add an auto-regenerating health bar. Done.

 

And don't you dare call it "dumbing down"... :biggrin:


Pillars of Eternity Josh Sawyer's Quest: The Quest for Quests - an isometric fantasy stealth RPG with optional combat and no pesky XP rewards for combat, skill usage or exploration.


PoE is supposed to be a spiritual successor to Baldur's GateJosh Sawyer doesn't like the Baldur's Gate series (more) - PoE is supposed to reward us for our achievements


~~~~~~~~~~~


"Josh Sawyer created an RPG where always avoiding combat and never picking locks makes you a powerful warrior and a master lockpicker." -Helm, very critcal and super awesome RPG fan


"I like XP for things other than just objectives. When there is no rewards for combat or other activities, I think it lessens the reward for being successful at them." -Feargus Urquhart, OE CEO


"Didn’t like the fact that I don’t get XP for combat [...] the lack of rewards for killing creatures [in PoE] makes me want to avoid combat (the core activity of the game)" -George Ziets, Game Dev.

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^ You're right... they should have a system in which you have to not only constantly cast healing spells to make it through battles (while at the same time avoiding the appropriate amount of damage, or you'll die anyway because your HP-pool-extending capability won't be sufficient), but you have to target the body part that was damaged. This way, we'll have maximum strategy. If your Warrior's right arm took a blow, your Cleric would need to cast "Heal Right Arm." Not to mention that the "auto-regenerating" health bar robs us of the ultra-strategic choice of "Do I want my characters' hitpoints to replenish, or don't I?". Not to mention tactical heal timing! I mean, if you heal them BEFORE they've taken damage, your heal is totally ineffective! You have to keep an intense eye on that health bar to notice when the opaque part shrinks, and there's always that annoying distraction of ensuring your party is effectively killing the enemies that gets completely in the way of strategically focusing on when to heal.

 

Maybe if they'd eliminate all that silly focus on how our party is damaging the enemies and how they're damaging our party, or at least make it as simple as possible, we could more effectively focus on how and when to strategically decide which way to make the health bars go.

 

Silly auto-regenerating "health" bar... what, like blood clots itself and flesh just regenerates over open wounds? Pssh. That's a bunch of nonsense. Everyone knows that abstracted physical damage can only be fixed by magic in real life. u_u

Edited by Lephys

Should we not start with some Ipelagos, or at least some Greater Ipelagos, before tackling a named Arch Ipelago? 6_u

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Silly auto-regenerating "health" bar... what, like blood clots itself and flesh just regenerates over open wounds? Pssh. That's a bunch of nonsense. Everyone knows that abstracted physical damage can only be fixed by magic in real life. u_u

Is a Straw Man really necessary here?

 

The IE games had auto-regenerating health. When you rested, your health regenerated. If your constitution was high enough, you regenerated. if you found hp regen items and equipped them, you regenerated. But they also had healing magic, if you wished to speed up the process for a cost.

 

What they did NOT have though, was the retarded, stupid, illogical, dumbed down for the kiddies system where you were totally free to throw caution to the wind and let yourself recklessly ignore your health bar and let it go down in a fight simply because it wouldn't matter. . . .because you'd be instantly restored to full a few seconds later after the fight and ready to do it all over again. You wanna talk about "magic" and, "unrealistic" nonsense? There it is.

Edited by Stun

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Is a Straw Man really necessary here?

 

 

I honestly missed the point at which using sarcasm to illustrate a point got the name "straw man." That's not sarcasm, btw. I really did miss it, heh. I just had to look up the meaning of "straw man." 8P

 

Anywho...

 

What they did NOT have though, was the retarded, stupid, illogical, dumbed down for the kiddies system where you were totally free to throw caution to the wind and let yourself recklessly ignore your health bar and let it go down in a fight simply because it wouldn't matter. . . .because you'd be instantly restored to full a few seconds later after the fight and ready to do it all over again. You wanna talk about "magic" and, "unrealistic" nonsense? There it is.

 

Okay, without using sarcasm (you didn't post snidely, and therefore don't deserve a snide response), if you're suggesting that the proposed P:E system is "magic" and "unrealistic" nonsense because you can throw caution to the wind and be fully healed seconds after each battle, then you seem to be ignoring the fact that we have 2 "health" resources: Actual Health, and Stamina. Stamina regenerates (because it only represents your immediate ability to consciously function in combat, becoming useless upon depleting it even though you still possess Health and are not dead). Health does not. Therefore, if you throw caution to the wind, then "caution" might as well be "health," because you'll die.

 

I'm not about to claim that healing in all other RPGs is pointless and stupid and clearly preposterous. But the opposite notion, that it is INTEGRAL to the strategic depth of combat, and that any attempt to remove it (no matter what the alternative) is so very obviously the most terrible decision in the universe, is equally as silly of a claim. Especially considering the failure to address the impact of Health in any way whatsoever.


Should we not start with some Ipelagos, or at least some Greater Ipelagos, before tackling a named Arch Ipelago? 6_u

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if you're suggesting that the proposed P:E system is "magic" and "unrealistic" nonsense because you can throw caution to the wind and be fully healed seconds after each battle, then you seem to be ignoring the fact that we have 2 "health" resources: Actual Health, and Stamina. Stamina regenerates (because it only represents your immediate ability to consciously function in combat, becoming useless upon depleting it even though you still possess Health and are not dead). Health does not. Therefore, if you throw caution to the wind, then "caution" might as well be "health," because you'll die.

Well, that would be stamina, yes. I'd never argue that quick stamina regeneration was "magic" or unrealistic, because it's not. One's stamina regenerates rather quickly in Real life. No magic needed.

 

We were talking about Health, though, and specifically, your health bar. And the only thing we've been told so far about the health bar in PE is that 1) it doesn't recover quickly and 2) only rest will replenish it.

Edited by Stun

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Well, there's a pretty big confusion that was caused by the titling of the two "healthbars" in the proposed P:E system, as your immediate health pool is called "Stamina" (the part we're used to worrying about healing in the midst of combat) and regenerates to some degree (probably slowly in the midst of combat, and very quickly when combat ends and time-sensitive regen-speed limitations become moot). This is also the only "health" we'll most likely be able to combat-heal (or heal at all with abilities as opposed to resting, for that matter.) So far, they've stated that your secondary health pool (actually called "Health") will:

 

A) Always take a fraction of the damage received (although there was brief mention of the possibility of rare cases of full negation to Health damage), and

B) Only be replenished via resting.

 

Obviously they're not finished ironing out all the design details, so that isn't to say that there won't be some other means of replenishing your Health, but, what they've said so far strongly suggests that you will never be relying on the convenience of healing spells (in or out of combat) to replenish your health. There might be very rare health potions or something similar, but the intent of the design seems to be to make sure that you don't go throwing caution to the wind in combat (without the consequences of wasting all your actual Health), while still eliminating the chore of healing everyone back up to full (Stamina in this case) after every battle, because you're going to cast however many healing spells you need to, and spend money on mana potions in order to do make sure those spells are available, or buy however many health potions you need to always enough on hand to do it.

 

The static health bar basically takes the place of your limited health potion stock in other games, as your Stamina will only automatically replenish after a battle if you still have Health. And since the Health bar is so large (relative to the damage taken in a single combat encounter) so as to limit the total amount of damage you can actually absorb before dying (between rest "checkpoints"), your Stamina pool represents the smaller, more-realistic limitation on how much damage you should be able to take within a very short timeframe in the midst of battle before you "die" for the remainder of that combat encounter.

 

We will most likely be able to heal Stamina in combat, though the specifics haven't really been announced yet. Nor have they said whether or not we'll be able to "revive" characters from a 0-Stamina "dead" state before combat ends, or if they're just always out for the remainder of combat once they hit 0.

 

But, it's a rather intelligently designed system so far, and we don't even have all the details yet. So, it's naturally a bit childish and silly for people to go running about shouting "Oh great, they just dumbed down healing!" Especially since healing, as we know it (even though the stuff being healed is called "Stamina," it functions almost the exact same way as typical RPG health pools) seems like it's going to still be in the game and allow for strategic death-prevention in combat. The only difference, really, is that your Health determines how long you can burn through combat sessions before having to rest, instead of a limited number of health potions and mana determining when you'd need to head back to town for more potions.

 

Personally, I'm not going to miss the act of heading to a merchant and spending money every time I need to stockpile some more potential healing instead of simply making camp at a campsite (which, even if you have to backtrack to, is extremely likely to be closer and less costly than traveling to the nearest town and making purchases when you don't otherwise need anything from town.)

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Should we not start with some Ipelagos, or at least some Greater Ipelagos, before tackling a named Arch Ipelago? 6_u

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"Oh great, they just dumbed down healing!"

How dare you say that!

 

 

 

 

 

lolz


Pillars of Eternity Josh Sawyer's Quest: The Quest for Quests - an isometric fantasy stealth RPG with optional combat and no pesky XP rewards for combat, skill usage or exploration.


PoE is supposed to be a spiritual successor to Baldur's GateJosh Sawyer doesn't like the Baldur's Gate series (more) - PoE is supposed to reward us for our achievements


~~~~~~~~~~~


"Josh Sawyer created an RPG where always avoiding combat and never picking locks makes you a powerful warrior and a master lockpicker." -Helm, very critcal and super awesome RPG fan


"I like XP for things other than just objectives. When there is no rewards for combat or other activities, I think it lessens the reward for being successful at them." -Feargus Urquhart, OE CEO


"Didn’t like the fact that I don’t get XP for combat [...] the lack of rewards for killing creatures [in PoE] makes me want to avoid combat (the core activity of the game)" -George Ziets, Game Dev.

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"Oh great, they just dumbed down healing!"

How dare you say that!

 

 

 

 

 

lolz

 

I didn't. Other people did. Hence the quotation marks. But it pleases me that my text amused you, nonetheless. I believe there's a laughter shortage in this world of ours. ^_^


Should we not start with some Ipelagos, or at least some Greater Ipelagos, before tackling a named Arch Ipelago? 6_u

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@Lephys: Not surprising I agree with ya on all that, I think it'll help if everyone stops considering going unconscious mid battle equal to dying. I mean literally calling it dying when your just knocked out is... well guess that's a computer gaming trend. The amount of times I hear people call that 'dying' (even in gears of war, as an example, when your crawling to hopefully get revived). But this kinda game with there system just confuses people more.

 

I know its semi-half pointless to relate everything to the real lifes but that's one reason I like this system. Majority of wars fought back then ended with most the people downed being alive still. The cleanup involved generally was walking around finishing off everyone who hadn't bled out (in sometimes what may of been hours). Really freakin' messed up. Either way, love the stamina vs health system. Think it's current names for it (stamina/health) fit but could maybe benefit from a rename later.

 

I find it amusing, though, that anyone would think its diminished on the healing front. Removing the need to heal out of combat (which is the vast majority of times you'd do it in a DnD game of any sort), and instead doing it IN combat (from a variety of sources) and doubling up the health system in combat ultimately makes it more complex and involved. While, at least to me, keeping the boring part of it down. I mean, healing up mid fight is always less of a chore, to me, then out of combat - mostly because its a challenge then, when out of combat its just busy work that has to be done if I don't wanna rest every 5 minutes.

 

Soo yeah, yay for there new more complex, more involved system. Boo to blind whiners. Yay to laughter?

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Def Con: kills owls dead

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I find it amusing, though, that anyone would think its diminished on the healing front. Removing the need to heal out of combat (which is the vast majority of times you'd do it in a DnD game of any sort), and instead doing it IN combat (from a variety of sources) and doubling up the health system in combat ultimately makes it more complex and involved. While, at least to me, keeping the boring part of it down. I mean, healing up mid fight is always less of a chore, to me, then out of combat - mostly because its a challenge then, when out of combat its just busy work that has to be done if I don't wanna rest every 5 minutes.

 

As do I. The most potent example of that has got to be my memories of playing Everquest (the original) at a friend's house. At the time, the only real consequence of losing a lot of health in a fight was that you had to literally sit and drink and eat for much, much longer (sometimes upwards of 5-10 minutes) just to regain all your health and mana before you could go again. I know most games have it much improved from that, but you still get that "Welp, combat's over, but that was a close one. The Cleric's out of mana, so let's either sit here and wait while it regens enough for him to cast another healing spell, which takes about 20 seconds per spell, and I only need to do that about 27 times to get everyone back up to full." OR, like you said, you simply rest. In which case, you still have a completely arbitrary "option" to rest that you have to use every single time (when are you NOT going to rest and instead wait on mana or use up potions when resting is always available?) and still have to wait on, if for a minimal amount of time.

 

So, Josh announces that resting won't always be an option, and there's a resounding "BOOOOO!". Why? Well, one of the only things it accomplished was to heal your party back up to full in between fights. So, Josh also announces that your immediate "health" (which just so happens to be called "Stamina,") will automatically regenerate quite speedily outside of combat (and very, very slowly within combat), and once again there's a resounding "BOOOOO! We automatically heal up once the fight's done?! LAME! By the way, give us back the ability to rest immediately after a fight has ended so we can heal up!"

 

And people wonder why we're so puzzled, and why we suggest there might be a misunderstanding afoot... :)

Edited by Lephys

Should we not start with some Ipelagos, or at least some Greater Ipelagos, before tackling a named Arch Ipelago? 6_u

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Oh god don't remind me. I played EQ for a few years, part of me misses the atmosphere of getting 5 people (including your self) together, finding a nice 'camping spot' and pulling singular enemies to the group to slaughter. You'd do that a few times till the priest is 'OOM'ing it up with some special 'water' to get the mana back. Certain combinations could keep your down on your ass for much longer periods of time. But in that setting it wasn't to bad, you, hopefully, had a good 4 other people to chat with for the few hours you where out doing what was ultimately an extremely boring affair over and over again.

 

Heh and dying oh man. Dying in that meant you may of just lost a months of 'work', depending on your level at the time. Freakin' spiked treadmill that game.

 

-edit-

In relation to all that, DAO did a good job of that. You auto-healed out of combat, had to heal in combat and they had a few ways to do that. Ultimately, PE has found a more complex way of handling that with less reliance on items and a higher reliance on characters them selves doing it. DAO was to binary in how it was handled (as was KotOR and all that). One reason im excited for PE, their nice alternative is surprising more complex but easier to manage (hopefully).

 

-second edit-

SPEARS, sure yall already read the email update which hasn't been -edite-blahblahblah-. But 1h and 2h spears evereh-buddeh! The one thing thats usually missing in everything =D

 

It's been posted hours ago, im just blind... heh heh.. >.>

Edited by Adhin

Def Con: kills owls dead

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'Project Eternity' Facebook-page: https://www.facebook...463757270322911

 

ProjectEternity_11216_640screen.jpg

The world has an uncanny resemblance to Western Europe.... just without the British Isles. ^^

 

To me it looks like the Old World and Empire from Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay, which is cool ^^


It would be of small avail to talk of magic in the air...

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I find it amusing, though, that anyone would think its diminished on the healing front. Removing the need to heal out of combat (which is the vast majority of times you'd do it in a DnD game of any sort), and instead doing it IN combat (from a variety of sources) and doubling up the health system in combat ultimately makes it more complex and involved. While, at least to me, keeping the boring part of it down. I mean, healing up mid fight is always less of a chore, to me, then out of combat - mostly because its a challenge then, when out of combat its just busy work that has to be done if I don't wanna rest every 5 minutes.

 

Soo yeah, yay for there new more complex, more involved system. Boo to blind whiners. Yay to laughter?

First, why are we setting this up as an either/or? Both scenarios should occur. The need to heal should happen both in combat and after combat.

 

Second, No, it's not "just busy work" to have to heal out of combat. Having to heal yourself back up after combat is over represents the consequences of allowing yourself to get hurt in the first place. (ie. due to bad combat tactics, or simply not giving a sh** because you don't have to - because modern regen systems make losing health inconsequential) When translated to a computer game, forcing the player to heal his wounds after combat also prevents players from just mindlessly plowing through encounter after encounter as if the entire dungeon was some sort of race track, and its challenges just speed bumps.

Edited by Stun

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I find it amusing, though, that anyone would think its diminished on the healing front. Removing the need to heal out of combat (which is the vast majority of times you'd do it in a DnD game of any sort), and instead doing it IN combat (from a variety of sources) and doubling up the health system in combat ultimately makes it more complex and involved. While, at least to me, keeping the boring part of it down. I mean, healing up mid fight is always less of a chore, to me, then out of combat - mostly because its a challenge then, when out of combat its just busy work that has to be done if I don't wanna rest every 5 minutes.

 

Soo yeah, yay for there new more complex, more involved system. Boo to blind whiners. Yay to laughter?

First, why are we setting this up as an either/or? Both scenarios should occur. The need to heal should happen both in combat and after combat.

 

Second, No, it's not "just busy work" to have to heal out of combat. Having to heal yourself back up after combat is over represents the consequences of allowing yourself to get hurt in the first place. (ie. due to bad combat tactics, or simply not giving a sh** because you don't have to - because modern regen systems make losing health inconsequential) When translated to a computer game, forcing the player to heal his wounds after combat also prevents players from just mindlessly plowing through encounter after encounter as if the entire dungeon was some sort of race track, and its challenges just speed bumps.

 

 

I see what you're saying, but it doesn't quite apply. Having your lost health require the use of finite resources to recover represents the consequences of the amount of effort you put into efficiently handling combat. The actual act of healing yourself outside of combat is a pointless waste of time.

 

Example:

 

"Aww man, we're all missing 100 health, and I don't have any healing potions or mana for healing spells!"

- Fine

"Aww man, we're all missing 100 health. Oh wait, I can use the rest of our potions/mana to heal up! Now I'm going to have to be even more careful, though, because I'll be out of potions and mana."

- Fine

"Aww man, we're all missing 100 health. Oh, hey, I have some potions, but they each only heal 10 hitpoints per potion, and they have a 30-second cooldown between uses, <8(..."

- Complete waste of time

That's exactly why they have both Health AND Stamina in P:E. Health will be unrecoverable between rest points (or, at the very least, EXTREMELY RARELY recoverable), so it's got your consequences' back. Stamina will regenerate quickly outside of combat only because its an infinitely renewable resource. The whole purpose of Stamina is to limit the amount of damage you can take in a short duration.

 

I agree with you on the misuse of regenerating health bars, but the existence of regenerating things (mana is a perfect example in a lot of games, as well) doesn't automatically equal bad, no-consequences design.

 

Adhin's point was that the strategy behind healing doesn't come from "Do I have enough healy stuff to recover 100 health?", but rather from "how efficiently/effectively can I utilize my healy stuff to recover enough health to positively effect the outcome of this time-sensitive scenario?". I.e. combat healing.

 

Outside of combat, you either have 100 health worth of healingness, or you don't. If you only have 80, then you're simply going to recover 80 out of 100 missing HP before you move on. Unless something's FORCING you to move on before taking all the time in the world to heal up. Whether it takes you an hour or 3 seconds, you're going to sit there until you heal as much as you can, THEN move on. So, why should it take an hour when it could take 3 seconds? (Especially with the nature of Stamina in P:E, like I said, with Health doin' it's thing all the while.)


Should we not start with some Ipelagos, or at least some Greater Ipelagos, before tackling a named Arch Ipelago? 6_u

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Outside of combat, you either have 100 health worth of healingness, or you don't. If you only have 80, then you're simply going to recover 80 out of 100 missing HP before you move on. Unless something's FORCING you to move on before taking all the time in the world to heal up. Whether it takes you an hour or 3 seconds, you're going to sit there until you heal as much as you can, THEN move on.

Speak for yourself?

 

Often times (in fact, almost all the time) in the IE games if my party lacked the resources to fully heal themselves up after a bruising encounter (or if I simply didn't want to use up my resources), I *didn't* wait (or rest) until I was healed. I moved on, confident in my party's abilities and my own gameplay strategy to be able to take on the next encounter in my wounded state and still do fine.

 

So no, don't be imposing your modern-rpg degenerate gameplay habits on the rest of us.

Edited by Stun

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Often times (in fact, almost all the time) in the IE games if my party lacked the resources to fully heal themselves up after a bruising encounter (or if I simply didn't want to use up my resources), I *didn't* wait (or rest) until I was healed. I moved on, confident in my party's abilities and my own gameplay strategy to be able to take on the next encounter in my wounded state and still do fine.

 

So no, don't be imposing your modern-rpg degenerate gameplay habits on the rest of us.

 

Rest-spamming is a degenerate gameplay tactic bred and encouraged by (among other) IE games. What has it to do with modern RPGs?

 

(I for one am a huge fan of P:E's proposed system, although I'd probably look for a different term than "Stamina", which doesn't really sit right with me. The short-term resource keeps you on your toes in fights, but regenerates quickly so you don't have to lose time between encounters, and the long-term resource punishes you for playing ineffectively and wasting your characters' stamina & health)

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Often times (in fact, almost all the time) in the IE games if my party lacked the resources to fully heal themselves up after a bruising encounter (or if I simply didn't want to use up my resources), I *didn't* wait (or rest) until I was healed. I moved on, confident in my party's abilities and my own gameplay strategy to be able to take on the next encounter in my wounded state and still do fine.

 

So no, don't be imposing your modern-rpg degenerate gameplay habits on the rest of us.

 

Rest-spamming is a degenerate gameplay tactic bred and encouraged by (among other) IE games. What has it to do with modern RPGs?

Well, in the context of this discussion (quick health regeneration), we're simply replacing rest spamming with "waiting around for your health bar to go back up"

 

(I for one am a huge fan of P:E's proposed system, although I'd probably look for a different term than "Stamina", which doesn't really sit right with me. The short-term resource keeps you on your toes in fights, but regenerates quickly so you don't have to lose time between encounters, and the long-term resource punishes you for playing ineffectively and wasting your characters' stamina & health)

I think PE's system is going to be pretty cool, since it actually doesn't promote rest or waiting around. Edited by Stun

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Why do people keep pretending that Stamina and Health exist in a vacuum? We will take damage to both pools simultaneously at some predefined ratio. You can be at full Stamina and die to the next arrow to the knee. To recover health we will be forced to travel back to some "rest spot" no matter what.

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Outside of combat, you either have 100 health worth of healingness, or you don't. If you only have 80, then you're simply going to recover 80 out of 100 missing HP before you move on. Unless something's FORCING you to move on before taking all the time in the world to heal up. Whether it takes you an hour or 3 seconds, you're going to sit there until you heal as much as you can, THEN move on.

Speak for yourself?

 

Often times (in fact, almost all the time) in the IE games if my party lacked the resources to fully heal themselves up after a bruising encounter (or if I simply didn't want to use up my resources), I *didn't* wait (or rest) until I was healed. I moved on, confident in my party's abilities and my own gameplay strategy to be able to take on the next encounter in my wounded state and still do fine.

 

So no, don't be imposing your modern-rpg degenerate gameplay habits on the rest of us.

 

 

*siiiiigh*. I'm sorry to point out that you're still assuming I'm somehow saying "YAY, I WANT EVERYTHING TO REGENERATE AUTOMATICALLY, INSTANTLY, YAY!!!!" here.

 

I was referring only to actual, finite healing capabilities (potions, spells, items, ritual dances, what-have-you). Pretend regeneration doesn't even exist.

 

You get damaged in combat. You make it through combat. Now you're low on health. You either:

 

A) Care about trying to get your health back before moving on, or

B) Don't care about healing at all for some reason and just push on with half health, even though the majority of the combat encounters are probably balanced with a full-health party in mind.

 

So, if it's B, well, then the rest doesn't matter as far as you're concerned. So, let's assume it's A.

 

Okay, you care about recovering health, so you check your inventory. Hey, a healing potion! (I'm sticking with one to keep it simple, as you may not always want to use ALL your available healing stuffs). So, you care about recovering some hitpoints, and you have a thing that will allow you to recover some hitpoints (nothing else will. There is no regeneration *jedi hand wave*). So you're gonna use it, right? Okay, so you use it.

 

It takes 5 minutes for the potion to fully work. It heals you 10 HP per minute. Wow, this is strategic fun, this is. Let's sit around for 5 minutes, OR be penalized by having to go into battle with only 10 more health instead of 50. Tough decision. Do we allow the stupidly-long duration of the potion to do its thing, or do we just forget about healing and run on into the next bout of combat (which, again, is designed to be harder the less health you have)?

 

So, yes, I'd rather that health potion bit be taken care of instantly. Now, obviously, in a system with just regular health, having automatic healing/regeneration outside combat would negate a major purpose of finite healing reserves, since all you would EVER have to do is make it through a combat encounter. After that, you'd be fit as a fiddle.

 

Enter P:E "Health." It serves that purpose, so Stamina is only solving roughly HALF of the purpose health in a typical RPG serves. So, yes, I think Stamina should regen, and that's totally fine, because you SHOULD always be at full Stamina because of how its designed. So, I don't need potions and healing spells and sitting and drinking beverages and eating foods to restore my Stamina over the course of the next 3 days. If I made it through combat, that means all threatening things are dead. So, unless I just fumble into more combat (which requires intentionally running off in some direction without even worrying about healing), I'm going to want to heal myself with whatever means I can.

 

It's just plain efficient, and it doesn't hurt anything (thanks to the design). Now, if you hate the Health/Stamina system, then so be it. But, thanks to the way it's designed, regenerating Stamina outside of combat isn't an issue.


Should we not start with some Ipelagos, or at least some Greater Ipelagos, before tackling a named Arch Ipelago? 6_u

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*siiiiigh*. I'm sorry to point out that you're still assuming I'm somehow saying "YAY, I WANT EVERYTHING TO REGENERATE AUTOMATICALLY, INSTANTLY, YAY!!!!" here.

You're not? My apologies then. I'll go debate with this thread's other Lephys LOL

 

AHEM:

Silly auto-regenerating "health" bar... what, like blood clots itself and flesh just regenerates over open wounds? Pssh. That's a bunch of nonsense.

Agreed. Auto-regenerating health bars are a stupid mechanic in cRPGs. They make it so that there are no consequences whatsoever for allowing yourself to get seriously hurt in an encounter due to your own reckless behavior, since you know that all you have to do is survive and the game will give you all your health back when the fight is over.

 

And that's the bottom line here. The inclusion of a dual-health/stamina bar or whatever does not suddenly change the nature of an auto-Health regeneration system. And Likewise, whether this regeneration is instant, or whether it takes a few minutes doesn't change things either. You're still dealing with a system that heals you up without making you have to pay any consequences. Thankfully, this discussion is much ado about nothing, since the System in PE will not have auto-regenerating health.

 

 

 

PS: I did get a chuckle out of this little gem:

Hey, a healing potion! (I'm sticking with one to keep it simple, as you may not always want to use ALL your available healing stuffs). So, you care about recovering some hitpoints, and you have a thing that will allow you to recover some hitpoints (nothing else will. There is no regeneration *jedi hand wave*). So you're gonna use it, right? Okay, so you use it.

 

It takes 5 minutes for the potion to fully work. It heals you 10 HP per minute. Wow, this is strategic fun, this is.

Say what?

 

In which RPG, exactly, does a healing potion ever take 5 minutes to work? Or 1 minute? Or anything longer than instantly? None that I've ever played. And certainly none of the IE games.

Edited by Stun

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You're not? My apologies then. I'll go debate with this thread's other Lephys LOL.

 

I'm sorry. You're incapable of mistaking my meaning, and you would definitely know what I was specifically referring to better than I would. My apologies.

 

And that's the bottom line here. The inclusion of a dual-health/stamina bar or whatever does not suddenly change the nature of an auto-Health regeneration system.

 

You're absolutely right. But it just so happens to change (although not suddenly) the nature of an auto-Stamina regeneration system.

 

Say what?

 

In which RPG, exactly, does a healing potion ever take 5 minutes to work? Or 1 minute? Or anything longer than instantly? None that I've ever played. And certainly none of the IE games.

 

It's an awful shame I was simply making a point with a hypothetical example rather than claiming any specific game had a 5-minute heal duration on a potion. (Fallout: NV had heal-over-time healing items in hardcore mode, in case you were curious.)

 

You know what? I'll actually shed light on the point in the good faith that you actually aren't here just to be an arse. The specific stuff to which you were arguing against with your anti-regeneration spiel was only referring to the regeneration of things that are infinite in supply that would otherwise (without regeneration) simply take unnecessary amounts of time to refill, such as P:E's Stamina, which you yourself already said you were cool with.

 

BEHOLD:

 

 

(I for one am a huge fan of P:E's proposed system, although I'd probably look for a different term than "Stamina", which doesn't really sit right with me. The short-term resource keeps you on your toes in fights, but regenerates quickly so you don't have to lose time between encounters, and the long-term resource punishes you for playing ineffectively and wasting your characters' stamina & health)

I think PE's system is going to be pretty cool, since it actually doesn't promote rest or waiting around.

 

So, yeah, the healing being "busy work" that you quoted Adhin on was referring to healing that is available to you after combat, but only happens if you spend 30 seconds using/doing it.. In the context of P:E? Stamina. So... maybe there was no need for the childish "You love regen because it's dumbing down and you're dumb and it's easy, LOL!"? A simple "wait, are you talking about regenning all your health instead of having finite healing here?" would've sufficed, and you wouldn't have voluntarily been an arse.

Edited by Lephys

Should we not start with some Ipelagos, or at least some Greater Ipelagos, before tackling a named Arch Ipelago? 6_u

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No offense, but you have an uncanny ability to ramble for whole paragraphs and not actually say anything in them. I have No idea what your point is. I have no idea anymore what you're even trying to argue, since you're jumping back and forth with an almost stream of consciousness writing style

 

But I do get this part:

 

Say what?

 

In which RPG, exactly, does a healing potion ever take 5 minutes to work? Or 1 minute? Or anything longer than instantly? None that I've ever played. And certainly none of the IE games.

It's an awful shame I was simply making a point with a hypothetical example
You mean you were building a big straw man and got called out for it. Of course when you give a gamer a choice between auto health regeneration and something really silly, like a consumable that takes 5 minutes to work and then doesn't actually heal you back to full, they're going to choose Auto health regeneration, because the other option is completely pointless. DUH. But that's not even *remotely* close to the choice they actually WOULD have in just about every single fantasy RPG ever created, like potions and spells that heal you back up instantly... you know, options that would actually make an auto-health regeneration system look like the lazy, uncreative, dumbed down mechanic that it really IS.

 

So yeah, come up with a more intellectually honest argument or Stop wasting my time.

Edited by Stun

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No offense, but you have an uncanny ability to ramble for whole paragraphs and not actually say anything in them. I have No idea what your point is. I have no idea anymore what you're even trying to argue, since you're jumping back and forth with an almost stream of consciousness writing style

 

No offense taken. You don't understand me. Nothing wrong with that. That doesn't make you unintelligent, and I never said it did. Of course, a simple "I don't understand your point" would've sufficed, without the completely pointless "You must be a rambling moron and there obviously wasn't a point anywhere in what you said because I didn't understand it." But, to each his own.

 

And, for the record, my "jumping back and forth" is between what was actually being said, and the stuff you keep attributing to the discussion. I say "I like having wildlife in in the game," and you say "Oh, so you think we should have pandas?!". And I have to point out "No, I didn't say pandas, I said wildlife. I don't necessarily think we should have pandas." But you're still convinced I want pandas... *shrug*. Anywho, that's just yet another attempt at clarification of what's going on, for what it's worth.

 

You mean you were building a big straw man and got called out for it. Of course when you give a gamer a choice between auto health regeneration and something really silly, like a consumable that takes 5 minutes to work and then doesn't actually heal you back to full, they're going to choose Auto health regeneration, because the other option is completely pointless. DUH. But that's not even *remotely* close to the choice they actually WOULD have in just about every single fantasy RPG ever created, like potions and spells that heal you back up instantly... you know, options that would actually make an auto-health regeneration system look like the lazy, uncreative, dumbed down mechanic that it really IS.

 

If hypothetical examples are automatically straw men, then text books would be a joke. Imagine a math book:

 

"Say you want to add two numbers..."

 

"But I DON'T want to add two numbers! STRAW MAN!!!" Heh. Seriously...

 

Also, here is a perfect example of the clarification I just referred to ^^ up there before your quote. I wasn't comparing time-delayed potions and arbitrarily implemented auto-regeneration. I was comparing time-delayed potions and INSTANT potions. That's been the only point this whole time, all the way back to you calling out Adhin on his "healing outside of combat would be busywork" quote. See, you instantly thought "OH, then you guys must LOVE dumbed-down, infinite-healing-all-the-time regeneration! LOLZ!". BUT, what was being referred to was only healing you were already going to do, hence the potions example. Again, just like Stamina in P:E's design.

 

Sooo yeah. A dumbed-down lack of finite health resources is silly. Not all versions of health regeneration are dumbed-down, though, just like Stamina in P:E.

 

I'm really not trying to antagonize you, Stun. My only intention was to clarify what you obviously thought was an advocation of dumbed-down regeneration, and the whole time you've made it as difficult as possible for me to do so.

 

The point Adhin made that I defended/attempted-to-clarify was that it's stupid to have duration/cooldown constraints on healing OUTSIDE of combat, as they only serve a purpose INSIDE of combat. Ideally, out-of-combat healing should be as quick and easy as possible (regardless of how much or how little healing is available.) It has nothing to do with being automatic or not. But, SINCE Stamina in P:E is infinite (because Health limits your actual ability to absorb damage no matter how full or empty your Stamina is), it might as well regenerate like it does, because if it didn't, healing all your characters' stamina back to full using in-combat-healing abilities, out of combat, would be silly busy work.

 

I don't know how to make the point any clearer than that. So, I'm sorry if that's still an inadequate clarification.

Edited by Lephys

Should we not start with some Ipelagos, or at least some Greater Ipelagos, before tackling a named Arch Ipelago? 6_u

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If hypothetical examples are automatically straw men,

They're not.... unless they're ridiculous hypothetical examples of something that never happens, but you're making them anyway in order to "prove" whatever crazy point you're trying to make. And that's exactly what you did.

 

In video games, Healing potions/spells provide instant healing to those who consume them. Thus, they are a viable, more creative alternative to an auto-health regeneration system. Period. You will never be able to overcome this fact, no matter what bizzare "hypothetical" you deign to dream up.

Also, here is a perfect example of the clarification I just referred to ^^ up there before your quote. I wasn't comparing time-delayed potions and arbitrarily implemented auto-regeneration.

BS. Of course you were. Your whole point was centered around the notion that manually healing yourself up after a fight is a "waste of time", when we could, instead, simply have a system that automatically regenerates your health. So what better way to "prove" this than to come up with a hypothetical where potions take 5 minutes to work, then say: "See? why would anyone want to consume potions after a fight when they can just have a system that "does the same thing but does it automatically?".

 

<gag> Who are you kidding?

Edited by Stun

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