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Walsingham

Chinese products

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I just finished reading this article in the Financial Times. Essentially it concerns a liability suit by a chap called Robert Silverman, over some faulty fireworks, and should be a serious worry to all of us.

 

The meat of the article is that the chinese based company, asserted that because it was owned by the Chinese state it was exempt from civil prosecution. And that was after years of refusing to even address the case, after more than one writ against them. What it means to you and me is that if we are using or consuming a chinese product and it goes awry, we get sod all. Even when a case is found and pushed through, chinese companies will dissolve rather than pay up.

 

I found this terrifying, and at the same time am bothered by the injustice. I will be seeking to avoid chinese manufactured products and urge you to read the article and comment.


"It wasn't lies. It was just... bull****"."

             -Elwood Blues

 

tarna's dead; processing... complete. Disappointed by Universe. RIP Hades/Sand/etc. Here's hoping your next alt has a harp.

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While I think fireworks are stupid and I don't have much sympathy for the victim, I can see where this would be a much larger issue.

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I'd like to avoid all Chinese products, unfortunately I shop at China-mart, er, Wal-mart.


"Moral indignation is a standard strategy for endowing the idiot with dignity." Marshall McLuhan

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I will be seeking to avoid chinese manufactured products and urge you to read the article and comment.

this is the problem they do not seem to understand. once this sort of issue gets publicized, particularly their response, people simply won't buy their products. they may get a pass once or twice, but eventually they will be forced into bankruptcy. if it becomes endemic to the chinese way of doing business (it has, actually), it will crush them long term.

 

taks


comrade taks... just because.

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He is trying to sue a Chinese company in China from the United States? Fat chance in hell, anyone who grew up or spends any decent amount of time in China knows how ludicrous that sounds.

 

Compensation is much lower in China then it is in the U.S. nobody ever got 5 million dollars because he found a dime in his hamburger at McDonalds. If you are crippled for life you might get $20000 USD and sign a letter waiving any further legal action The law does not protect you in China only your guanxi, this apples to Chinese citizens and foreigners.

 

I don't mean to sound cruel but that is the way things are, things are getting better but while things are getting better people will continue to be screwed. That said not buying Chinese products is unavoidable, and stupid to begin with. The reduction in cost due to Chinese manufacturing is one of the reasons living standards in the West could improve. All socio-economic classes in the west can afford basic appliances, textile fabrics and computers and electronics because of there are people half a world away willing to work 12 hour shifts and cause serious environmental damages to their country.

Edited by EUIX

"For ourselves, we shall not trouble you with specious pretences- either of how we have a right to our empire because we overthrew the Mede, or are now attacking you because of wrong that you have done us- and make a long speech which would not be believed; and in return we hope that you, instead of thinking to influence us by saying that you did not join the Lacedaemonians, although their colonists, or that you have done us no wrong, will aim at what is feasible, holding in view the real sentiments of us both; since you know as well as we do that right, as the world goes, is only in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must."

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I think the best idea is to simply avoid Chinese products.

 

China doesn't even have a complete or consistent legal system yet, ignoring the fact that one would be supporting a totalitarian communist regime.

 

That said not buying Chinese products is unavoidable, and stupid to begin with. The reduction in cost due to Chinese manufacturing is one of the reasons living standards in the West could improve.

 

Bull****. I'll take my chances with democracies of equal capability like India or Indonesia, thanks.

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I'm already trying not to buy Chinese items unless I must - and even then it's annoying. :p


"A little inaccuracy sometimes saves a ton of explanation."
-H. H. Munro

 

"Geez. It's like we lost some sort of bet and ended up saddled with a bunch of terrible new posters on this forum."

-Hurlshot

 

 

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Bull****. I'll take my chances with democracies of equal capability like India or Indonesia, thanks.

 

I am not going to get engaged in a pissing contest over Indian manufacturing or what not though I think you will find India and Indonesia combined don't have a fraction of Chinese manufacturing, China is much too big a topic for me to huff and puff about on a video games forum (doesn't even increase my post count on this forum =\ ) but I will just say these words which sum up what I feel, and hopefully not make a mountain out of a molehill.

 

There is such a virulent strain of anti-Chinese sentiments in most of the developed west it's hard to get a straight forward rational analysis of things so I won't pretend my sources are any more valid then yours. I don't want to sound like I am the resident CCP stooge but there are things in China that are just so fundamentally different, arising primarily due to history, unprecedented poverty and turmoil that has only recently ended, an enormous population, along with incomplete economic and still to be implemented political transformations that gives the impression of an alieness (I know that's not a word) but are really just the result of the heretofore.

 

Democracy, human rights, labor protection, these are just words, they ring hollow and insignificant next to the tumultuous events of 20th century China. Of course you might think history is no justification nor precedence for the present, and you will be right. It is not to excuse all the problems with Chinese practices these days but to establish the context in which these transformations must happen. If you understand the difficulty of compressing over a hundred years of western development into a single generation upon 1.3 billion people that until 1979 roughly speaking was in a constant state of political, economic upheaval then all that has and is transpiring, in all things, is not difficult to understand. People in the meantime will continue to suffer some more then others but there always has been casualties to change, to I dare say progress, some accidental others deliberate and there always will be. In the end the way of the world remains; the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must.

Edited by EUIX

"For ourselves, we shall not trouble you with specious pretences- either of how we have a right to our empire because we overthrew the Mede, or are now attacking you because of wrong that you have done us- and make a long speech which would not be believed; and in return we hope that you, instead of thinking to influence us by saying that you did not join the Lacedaemonians, although their colonists, or that you have done us no wrong, will aim at what is feasible, holding in view the real sentiments of us both; since you know as well as we do that right, as the world goes, is only in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must."

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Didn't the guy have insurance though? I mean, he's dealing with explosives professionally, I would think he would have some form of insurance.

 

It just doesn't make sense to me, his insurance company should be handling everything and pursuing legal action against China. I doubt he would have much luck if the company weren't in China, to be honest, although they might settle to save face.

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One of the greatest shocks of moving "down under" was seeing how much of the stuff on the shelves had "Made in China" on them :blink:

 

I had never seen something like that before, thinking that the Aussies (and Kiwis too for that matter) had completely forgotten how to manufacture anything but red wine :wacko:


“He who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would surely suffice.” - Albert Einstein

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I don't want to sound like I am the resident CCP stooge

 

Meh, you don't. I think you're Chinese yourself right? Either way, I find myself agreeing with the bulk of your post. Many Chinese apologists are rather less rational and frank. I don't want China to fall into poverty and chaos. I do not, however, like the direction we're heading with China having all but a monopoly on manufacturing many Western goods. Not with the mentality of the Chinese state (I wouldn't give a bugger if it was private industry, and if China's private industry was truly private). Though at least such manufacturing is tempered by a reliance on Western commodities.

 

Regarding your comment on the size of the manufacturing industries in other developed countries - I do presume they are smaller, but that's in no small part due to China soaking up capital investment with places like Indonesia left picking over the scraps (which was only sensible until recently since Indonesia for example only fully started economic liberalisation about 10 years ago). There's certainly no labour difference. But my point isn't that we should've avoided Chinese products in the past - it's that we should start to avoid them now, now that coherent alternatives exist. This coincides with China trending towards a consumption based economy so in an ideal world it works out well for everyone. :wacko:

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One of the greatest shocks of moving "down under" was seeing how much of the stuff on the shelves had "Made in China" on them :blink:

 

I had never seen something like that before, thinking that the Aussies (and Kiwis too for that matter) had completely forgotten how to manufacture anything but red wine :wacko:

 

TBH, that's where Australia wants to be in terms of supporting quality of life and happiness. Over 70% of GDP comes from the services sector. Less than 10% from commodities and agriculture. The rest mainly manufacturing.

 

Then again, we could take a leaf out of Japan's book fully mechanise manufacturing with robots, leaving most people to the more intellectually rewarding/stimulating services jobs as they are currently. But the problem is places like Japan already have that market cornered. There's just not a lot to justify Australia breaking into the manufacturing industry generally (look at the mess of our car industry). Free market and all that rot. I suppose we could introduce tariffs and such? :*

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If Chinese products are made with lax safety and quality standards then clearly they are going to be cheaper than competitors. However, it is just daft to claim that we as consumers should accept lax quality and safety from one producer when we don't from any others. As has been pointed out already there are no shortages of countries desperate to receive the kind of investment we see hoofing it to China.


"It wasn't lies. It was just... bull****"."

             -Elwood Blues

 

tarna's dead; processing... complete. Disappointed by Universe. RIP Hades/Sand/etc. Here's hoping your next alt has a harp.

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China is much too big a topic for me to huff and puff about on a video games forum (doesn't even increase my post count on this forum =\ )
I don't know, but this rubbed me the the wrong way for some reason. If you are a big China buff, then why not share your quite obviously well-informed opinions with the rest of us? WoT denizens are hardly your stereotypical "video games forum" residents. Heh, YOU are posting here, yourself.

 

Being rather unfamiliar with 20th century Chinese history, I found your summary interesting, but terribly unspecific and unsubstantiated. I mean, everyone knows that China is a place of contrasts and that the image of a modern, prosperous power is just a facet. How does this tie in with the idea that avoiding sub-par Chinese products is unfeasible and stupid? Wouldn't that actually serve as an incentive for Chinese manufacturers to increase their end product standards? Just take a look at the crazy fakes market, for instance. They keep up with the originals quite well, because otherwise, they wouldn't sell so much.

 

It's interesting that you bring the "way of the world" into this, as this would appear to be a good case to see economic darwinism in action, no? In a way, it could be that the "weak" are those who suffer the consequences of the Chinese unwillingness to comply with Western liability legislation, but that's stretching it a bit too much, and not exactly good advice or an inescapable truth by any means.

 

 

However, it is just daft to claim that we as consumers should accept lax quality and safety from one producer when we don't from any others.
Not even when reduced price tags are associated? I won't be purchasing any Chinese climbing ropes (or fireworks) - sneakers, on the other hand...

- When he is best, he is a little worse than a man, and when he is worst, he is little better than a beast.

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If Chinese products are made with lax safety and quality standards then clearly they are going to be cheaper than competitors. However, it is just daft to claim that we as consumers should accept lax quality and safety from one producer when we don't from any others. As has been pointed out already there are no shortages of countries desperate to receive the kind of investment we see hoofing it to China.

 

The assumption here is that things will be better in other "developing" countries. If it were so simple, I think the West would've switched a long time ago. There is no shortage of investment in places like India and Indonesia, but often times, the infrastructure simply isn't there for the kind of profits you see in China.

 

Of course, product quality and accountability is a huge issue when doing business with China, but the case is overstated. The media would have you believe that if you buy a Made in China product, it'll blow up in your face 50% of the times. Yet, most of what you use is Made in China. How does that jibe?


There are doors

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I take numbers' point about there being a difference between a plate and a light aircraft. However, China IS desperately trying to become a manufacturer of more complex goods, like cars.

 

Investment in China isn't just about cost. It's got a lot to do with perceived stability, infrastructure, ease of investment etc etc. But what i'm beginning to think is that these positive points are outweighed by the practical issues surrounding corporate cuilture, risk management, product development and so on; not to mention the moral component.


"It wasn't lies. It was just... bull****"."

             -Elwood Blues

 

tarna's dead; processing... complete. Disappointed by Universe. RIP Hades/Sand/etc. Here's hoping your next alt has a harp.

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