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FO: NV


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#261
Jaesun

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I was just re-watching the excellent Andromeda Strain Movie, and perhaps it's 5 levels of contamination and nuclear disarmament might add some goodies to New Vegas. :)

#262
Oner

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Meh, F1 didn't have tribals and I can live without 'em.

How can any sane man live without Bone-Nose?

#263
bhlaab

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a lot of us here watch the forums, and love hearing what you have to say :)


Fallout 3 was missing tribals (blasphemy I say), you fine folks will show them some love.

...right? :nuke:


Point Lookout is going to have tribals, but it seems like theyre just going to be Raiders by another name :\

#264
Wombat

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Well, the lead designer says it's too early to talk and most of us have many other things to do, so why not just wait and come back later?


because i'm impatient, goddammit. anyway, it's not like Sawyer's opening up a can of worms which is really beans which develops botulism and accidentally eats it and dies if he posts even one goddamn piece of concept art or sth. sheesh. :nuke:

:)

Back to Serious Land™, I just wanted to say hi and let you guys know that a lot of us here watch the forums, and love hearing what you have to say :)

So, when posting to this board, we have to imagine these invisible developers? This sounds like a religion. :lol: Well, I may have sounded like a Van Buren fundamentalist and, indeed, I like some ideas but it is more like that we don't have much info about FO:NV and that the most nearest thing is the past ideas and past works from Obsidian.

I often browse the fora through J.E.Saywer's profile since he is the designer who used to talk of game designs frequently but I feel he was getting cautious then he used to be. I wonder if this is related to his increased responsibility. Indeed, he post some "hi, I'm still browsing the boards" messages but I sometimes envy Dragon Age official boards where the designers talk of game design more frequently, which is one of things I am impressed by Bioware designers (Their story-telling may not my cup of tea but they are people who popularized RTS combat in CRPG with some ancient producers and designers in Obsidian).

Speaking of "hi" messages, I noticed some of the designers began to post in this thread.
*waves* Hi, Eric Windowmaker (isn't your first name the middle name of your boss?) and Jason Fader and Mustang.

#265
Walsingham

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Whatever you do, PLEASE make the motibations of the protagonists and antagonists believable beyond the level of a black and white silent movie. NOTHING in FO3 made me feel anyone made sense. If you have to, just throw darts at a Maslow's triangle.

#266
TwinkieGorilla

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If you have to, just throw darts at a Maslow's triangle.


hell, go ahead and do this even if you don't have to.

#267
bhlaab

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So is this game being made more or less with the geck editor, or are you free to change underlying game systems.

For example, could you make it so that failing a speech check sends you to specific dialogue instead of generic "Yeah nice try buddy!" lines, or completely revamp how the game handles weapon degredation beyond fiddling with rate multiplyers etc

#268
J.E. Sawyer

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We have the GECK as well as all art source and code source. We coordinate the viability of any given addition/change with Bethesda since they have a decade-ish of experience with the technology base.

#269
Slowtrain

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We coordinate the viability



I used to work in a place where people talked like this all the time.

#270
TwinkieGorilla

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i'm coordinating the viability of leaving work early in about a minute.

#271
bhlaab

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Ah, nice. I didn't expect such a straightforward answer.

Good to know you have the ability to change things right down to the source code.

One thing I've been trying to do is make it so skill affects accuracy a lot more and doesnt affect the damage the gun does at all
But it's been a pain since the Melee damage formula and Gun damage formula share a lot of the same variables-- except melee doesn't have spread (obviously) and so now the baseball bat you get in the very beginning does 82 damage and never misses (and adding points to the melee skill is completely pointless) Oy.

#272
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Ah, nice. I didn't expect such a straightforward answer.



Neither did I, tbch.

Maybe somebody should check and make sure there isn't an alien pod in Josh's office.

#273
entrerix

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I coordinate the viability of things all day, except when I'm not working.

also: this is a personal question for any developers reading this -

Do you prefer to PLAY games that use systems where the skill level of a given weapon (say small guns or rifles or melee or whatever) affects your accuracy or your damage or both? What I'm getting at is where you think the most fun balance lies between systems found infallout 1 (ie only affects accuracy, damage is purely item based) or deus ex and morrowind where it was primarily accuracy but a little effect on damage (please correct me if I am recalling these wrong) or the systems of say fallout 3 where it was primarily damage being affected with only a small effect on accuracy.


again, you don't have to say what you're implementing in F:NV if you can't, but I'm genuinely curious about your own preferences. I know many players hate games where your accuracy is skill based but I wonder how much of that is based on the decision to have a moving reticle (like deus ex where it's size and roving aspect change based on skill) or a fixed reticle with wildly inaccurate shots that dont go where the reticle is pointed (ie I expect most people are ok with a roving reticle as long as the shots go where the reticle is pointed)



lots of questions and subquestions but seriously this is fascinating stuff.

#274
bhlaab

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It was probably like that in Fallout 3 because it was like that in Oblivion.
Aaand it was like that in Oblivion because a ton of people complained about Morrowind's combat which was die-roll heavy (meaning that even if your weapon connected, it could still miss because of low skill) -- Just like a lot of people are complaining about Fallout 3's inaccurate weapons.

I think the main problem is that the game uses a "cone" to figure out where your shots will go-- Meaning, if you were ducked behind a small wall you could end up hitting the wall instead of shooting over it where you're actually aiming.

I think a much better system would be to have the shots always hit the crosshair, but if the bullet actually connects with an enemy it rolls a die to see if it missed based on skill and the enemy's dodge chance. This would also help the problem with enemies moving around during VATS making 95% shot suddenly become a 0%. It would also be a good idea to have the % chance show up in realtime when your crosshair is over a target so the player will KNOW why their shots aren't connecting. (I think that was the major problem with Morrowind, you never knew what your chances were of hitting so instead of knowing you have no chance in hell and running away you'd swing your sword over and over in futility and get killed)

#275
Aristes

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It's too bad the gameplay mechanics thread is dead because these questions are more suited for that one. Not that I really care about keeping the threads tidy, just sayin'.

I was hoping for getting answers in this thread that I simply don't think the devs will answer yet, such as locations we'll be able to visit and some of the underlying political storyline. I would also like to know how many significant factions we'll face. All of that is probably a long way off from discussion, although there really isn't a huge amount of time left and I'm somewhat hopeful that Obsidian might want to showcase some of their artwork that gives clues about locations. I think enterix made the point earlier that concept art isn't likely to change at this point.

As far as mechanics goes, I'd like to know if we can expect to max out virtually all of our skills by the end of the game. I enjoyed Fallout 3. Immensely. However, VATS irritated me, which was fine because I could simply avoid using it. On the other hand, maxing the majority of skills by the time you reach the level cap is crazy. ...And the argument that the player can simply choose not to use the skill points awarded to him as a way to artificially rectify the problem is ridiculous on its face and I've always despised similar arguments for other games as well. If you want a harder game, you should be able to toggle the difficulty. Saying I should be forced to download a mod in order to fix a problem is likewise ridiculous. Unlike a lot of forum monkeys, I'm probably more akin a casual gamer chimp who rarely installs a mod, if ever. I know I rarely used mods for Morrowind and never installed a mod for Oblivion on two runs. I have yet to purchase any DLC for Fallout 3, even being a big fan.

For my purposes, I don't really care if the solution is to include more (reasonable) skills or increase the point max. I would probably prefer to see a higher skill ceiling that allows more options and variation in player choice along with a slight increase skill point allotment at each level. That means that players will still be able to max enough skills to specialize without be able to master all trades. Unless you want to inflate the significance of books, however, you can't just reduce the number of points and keep the max at 100. That would be the solution I'd like the least.

#276
entrerix

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i guess I'll throw in my 2 cents on it as well. Yours is a fine sounding suggestion to me bhlaab, though I confess I prefer a roving sight like in deus ex, coupled with a slight affect on damage but a large effect on critical hit chances, so that with a high skill you have a much higher chance of one-shotting enemies. it doesnt hide the ball that way, though some people may dislike the moving sights, when the skills maxes out and it stops roving you really feel like an expert marksman. I may just feel this way because I'm in love with deus ex though.

#277
bhlaab

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i guess I'll throw in my 2 cents on it as well. Yours is a fine sounding suggestion to me bhlaab, though I confess I prefer a roving sight like in deus ex, coupled with a slight affect on damage but a large effect on critical hit chances, so that with a high skill you have a much higher chance of one-shotting enemies. it doesnt hide the ball that way, though some people may dislike the moving sights, when the skills maxes out and it stops roving you really feel like an expert marksman. I may just feel this way because I'm in love with deus ex though.


The roving crosshair would be good for iron sights. But just wandering around, it would be really distracting. There's already a system in Fallout 3 where the sniper scope will wobble according to the skill level, I'm not sure if it works 100% perfectly though.
I'd also prefer a mass effect stlye camera where you can fully rotate around your character, unless you have a gun readied in which case it goes over the shoulder.

For VATS, here's a list of my deman- uh, dreams:
-You press the VATS button (for example, right bumper on Xbox 360), and the camera zooms out to an overhead view.
-The enemy you were most likely aiming at will be highlighted in green. You can swap targets with the D-Pad or by selecting them with the mouse
-You can do untargeted shots with Right Trigger or the Left Mouse Button, producing a die roll. This will cost AP.
-You can walk around with the left joystick or WASD, but you will be locked on to the highlighted enemy Zelda-style. This will cost AP
-You can zoom in and out of the action with the right joystick or mouse wheel. You can toggle back to first person by clicking in the right thumbstick or the mouse wheel, but you won't be able to move around while in 1st person during VATS due to complications with the "lock on" movement.
-You can reload or holster your weapon (to move more efficiently) with the X button or R key. This will cost AP.
-You can access your Pip boy with the B button or Tab Key. This will cost AP.
-You can switch between two "hot" weapons with up and down on the D Pad or with the number keys. This will cost AP.
-You can zoom in for a targeted shot on the highlighted enemy with the left bumper, resembling "classic" VATS. These shots will cost more AP than untargeted.
-You can jump and crouch for AP costs.
-You can use objects in the environment just like in realtime gameplay to trigger traps, drink water, etc for an AP cost.
-You can hit the right bumper again to exit VATS and zoom back in.

I'm not sure how to deal with the enemy's turn. Either give them a full fledged turn or, after exiting VATS, make the player stuck in one spot unable to do anything until their AP is charged up.

#278
J.E. Sawyer

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Sorry, I should have written, "coordinate researching the viability of".

#279
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I'm not sure how to deal with the enemy's turn. Either give them a full fledged turn or, after exiting VATS, make the player stuck in one spot unable to do anything until their AP is charged up.



Make enemy shots do 2x damage when the player is in VATS or while AP's are recharging. There needs to be some penalty for using VATS. Right now, its just game supported cheat key.

#280
Aristes

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Yeah, that sounds like a way to go. If you penalize folks for using VATS, you're going to shoot yourself in the foot.

As for the ideas regarding the skill impact on accuracy/damage, why change it at all? It sounds like a lot of work for something that won't matter to the vast majority of gamers. Retooling VATS might be worth it, but if they make VATS unusable, they might as well remove it from the game. I'm not a VATS fan, but that certainly doesn't seem worth it.

The skill points problem has much more obvious impact on gameplay and balancing. Personally, they could by and large keep combat the same. Sure, in principle I think ranged attacks should use stats for accuracy with minor bumps for damage. In practice, they'd either have to make the changes so minor that the end user would neither notice nor care or make the changes so significant that folks who've gone through the original game and the DLC will be irritated. I don't think it's worth it in either case. Great general theory from folks who want to show off their mad modding skilz though.

Edited by Aristes, 18 June 2009 - 02:38 PM.





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