RPG fans and perception rolls

[lollers]

Is it just me or does the RPG community have **** for perception? Obsidian has a reputation as Bioware junior, and yet Bioware themselves have steadily been more and more blatant in their influences and reliance on established franchises and as far as I see almost never get called out for it? Only truly original IP I've seen from them was JE. ME borrowed so much from Startrek and Alien, which doesn't even account for all the sources... basically half of the ME setting seems to be borrowed or heavily influenced by them. KotOR is obvious, FR has been around for decades, and so has the Sword Coast on which BG was set it. Stories ever since NWN have been about good army vs evil army, and NPCs seem less inspired with each game that comes out...

 

BIS/Obsidian are like this too, but at least PST and MotB used niche influences to build on, which are very original to most people.

[Amentep]

To be fair, Jade Empire pulls heavily from Chinese Wuxia films and books and Barry Hughart's Master Li series.

 

Obsidian has done SW:KotOR and NWN2 which are established franchises, Alpha Protocol which IIRC has used several spy franchises (Bond and Bourne) as a point of reference and while Mass Effect borrowed from Alien, Obsidian is doing (maybe ) a game BASED on Alien.

 

So rather than worry about whether the game has a blatant influence or reliance on established franchises, I'd just say lets look and see if the game, based on what we get, is good or not. As the critics say, there's only a limited number of stories, everything else is a variation on one of those originals.

[WILL THE ALMIGHTY]

Its always because of the fanboys. Always.

[Llyranor]

To be fair, Jade Empire pulls heavily from Chinese Wuxia films and books and Barry Hughart's Master Li series.

*Heavily*? Really? JE is a piece of crap with a very superficial 'it's not really ancient China, it's really our own mythology but influenced by Chinese mythology but not really Chinese mythology' layer that's otherwise just standard mediocre Bioware shovelware.

[Trenitay]

Bioware is fantastic.

[Musopticon?]

To be fair, Jade Empire pulls heavily from Chinese Wuxia films and books and Barry Hughart's Master Li series.

*Heavily*? Really? JE is a piece of crap with a very superficial 'it's not really ancient China, it's really our own mythology but influenced by Chinese mythology but not really Chinese mythology' layer that's otherwise just standard mediocre Bioware shovelware.

Bio: "Watch us botch yet another setting!"

Fans: "Pee on us, Bio!"

[Amentep]

To be fair, Jade Empire pulls heavily from Chinese Wuxia films and books and Barry Hughart's Master Li series.

*Heavily*? Really? JE is a piece of crap with a very superficial 'it's not really ancient China, it's really our own mythology but influenced by Chinese mythology but not really Chinese mythology' layer that's otherwise just standard mediocre Bioware shovelware.

 

Its your right to think the game was crap, but denying that Jade Empire pulled from those influences is a bit like saying that Dungeons and Dragons has no relation to Tolkein's work, Jack Vance's Dying Earth, or Fritz Lieber's Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser.

 

Heck the first Master Li novel is subtitled "A Novel of an Ancient China That Never Was" and if that isn't a starting point for the development of Jade Empire, I don't know what is.

[Zoma]

To be fair, Jade Empire pulls heavily from Chinese Wuxia films and books and Barry Hughart's Master Li series.

*Heavily*? Really? JE is a piece of crap with a very superficial 'it's not really ancient China, it's really our own mythology but influenced by Chinese mythology but not really Chinese mythology' layer that's otherwise just standard mediocre Bioware shovelware.

 

Its your right to think the game was crap, but denying that Jade Empire pulled from those influences is a bit like saying that Dungeons and Dragons has no relation to Tolkein's work, Jack Vance's Dying Earth, or Fritz Lieber's Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser.

 

Heck the first Master Li novel is subtitled "A Novel of an Ancient China That Never Was" and if that isn't a starting point for the development of Jade Empire, I don't know what is.

 

J.E is nothing sort of being influenced by Wuxia novels at all. Had you read one written by a Louis Cha (Jing Yong) before? If you had, you would perhaps change your mind in regards of the influence inspired. The man's regarded as the person who creates and influences the modern wuxia novels of the 20th century.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_Cha

 

His known famous works:

 

-Legend of the Condor Heroes

-Return of the Condor Heroes

-The Deer and the Couldron

-The smiling Wandering Swordsman

-Heaven Sword, Dragon Saber

-Demi-Gods, Semi-Devils

 

JE is simply a typical Western Fantasy story that simply happends to have face lift and name changes to fit into an Eastern setting. Which in the end results a setting that is nothing sort of being inspired from Wuxia or Kung Fu movies.

 

To put it straight, its simply a Eastern setting that tries to emulate a Western's cliches. Simply by looking at the plot's theme of typical good vs evil, such plots are not heavily emphasised in Wuxia novels at all. Wuxia novels tend to focus more on Patriotism, the setting of Jiang Hu, development of Heroism, and reflections of eastern values . So even if Bioware did try to be influenced by Wuxia novels in the creation of JE, its obviously they had taken it from a ****ty source instead from Jing Yong.

Edited February 25, 2009 by Zoma

[Amentep]

To be fair, Jade Empire pulls heavily from Chinese Wuxia films and books and Barry Hughart's Master Li series.

*Heavily*? Really? JE is a piece of crap with a very superficial 'it's not really ancient China, it's really our own mythology but influenced by Chinese mythology but not really Chinese mythology' layer that's otherwise just standard mediocre Bioware shovelware.

 

Its your right to think the game was crap, but denying that Jade Empire pulled from those influences is a bit like saying that Dungeons and Dragons has no relation to Tolkein's work, Jack Vance's Dying Earth, or Fritz Lieber's Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser.

 

Heck the first Master Li novel is subtitled "A Novel of an Ancient China That Never Was" and if that isn't a starting point for the development of Jade Empire, I don't know what is.

 

J.E is nothing sort of being influenced by Wuxia novels at all. Had you read one written by a Louis Cha (Jing Yong) before? If you had, you would perhaps change your mind in regards of the influence inspired. The man's regarded as the person who creates and influences the modern wuxia novels of the 20th century.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_Cha

 

His known famous works:

 

-Legend of the Condor Heroes

-Return of the Condor Heroes

-The Deer and the Couldron

-The smiling Wandering Swordsman

-Heaven Sword, Dragon Saber

-Demi-Gods, Semi-Devils

 

JE is simply a typical Western Fantasy story that simply happends to have face lift and name changes to fit into an Eastern setting. Which in the end results a setting that is nothing sort of being inspired from Wuxia or Kung Fu movies.

 

To put it straight, its simply a Eastern setting that tries to emulate a Western's cliches. Simply by looking at the plot's theme of typical good vs evil, such plots are not heavily emphasised in Wuxia novels at all. Wuxia novels tend to focus more on Patriotism, the setting of Jiang Hu, development of Heroism, and reflections of eastern values . So even if Bioware did try to be influenced by Wuxia novels in the creation of JE, its obviously they had taken it from a ****ty source instead from Jing Yong.

 

Er...yeah.

 

First off being "based on" does not mean "recreating in its entirety".

 

Second, I agree that for the most part they took surface details from wuxia films and books rather than building a story using the themes populating those works.

 

Third, I think that the aforementioned Master Li novels are probably a much bigger influence than wuxia; the game has much more in common to my mind to that novel series than any wuxia story.

 

That does not mean that wuxia was not an influence.

 

Note that influence is directional; a work is influenced by something. There is no "try to be influenced", either it is influenced or it isn't. It is correct (in perhaps more than one sense) to say that Jade Empire is not a wuxia story (whether it tried to be or not) it is not correct to say it isn't influenced by wuxia stories because clearly it was. The developers even mentioned Louis Cha's work when talking about influences on the game.

 

Did they replicate his work in game form? No. But then again Dungeons and Dragons doesn't replicate Lord of the Rings despite a strong influence from that novel.