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Neither of these games had multiple choice conversations with skill checks.

 

You honestly think skill checks in conversation is what constitutes an RPG? :rolleyes:

Oh...I see. Defining an RPG and all that.

 

For starters, let me just say that a game that has stats (like NOLF2, Shock 2) does not automatically makes it an RPG. When I think of RPGs, I think of that stuff that Bioware, Obsidian....and even Bethesda makes. Some better, some worse. But they got it all included: Conversations, skill checks, quests that can be solved in arbitrary sequence, level-up system, character driven nature (except Beth games, which are player driven).

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Dialogue does not need to carry skill checks in order to help players mold a character's personality. We use numbers because it's an easier way to define and track possibilities, but you can create a system where it tracks past decisions and consequences in order to influence NPCs with them. A Charisma of 18 can be just as effective as reminding a drug lord you've laid waste to his hired assassins - provided you actually did.

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Exactly. I honestly believe you could make an awesome RPG by relying simply on variety in actions/events/quest resolution instead of stats or even dialogue. You want to role play? Actions speak louder than words.

 

I'd love to see a game like that, in fact. It'd be an FPS, of course. Think Deus Ex with twice as many quests, and twice as many possible meaningful outcomes per quest.

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I don't really think a player choice of player character sex has much to do with rpg vs fps. Mostly it has to do with a balance between allowing the player to feel more attached to their pc vs how much the devs want the player to assume a specific role for the course of the game.

 

Assuming the devs don't feel strongly about defining the gender of the player character for the purposes of the game story, then allowing a choice of player character sex is pretty much a good and basic thing to do. Otoh, if the devs very much want to build the game around a sex-specific pc, then I have no problems with the devs removing that choice from me.

 

I choose NOLF as an example not because it was an fps or rpg or whatever, but it was a game that would not have been the same game had the player had a choice of playing a male pc.

Notice how I can belittle your beliefs without calling you names. It's a useful skill to have particularly where you aren't allowed to call people names. It's a mistake to get too drawn in/worked up. I mean it's not life or death, it's just two guys posting their thoughts on a message board. If it were personal or face to face all the usual restraints would be in place, and we would never have reached this place in the first place. Try to remember that.
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It would be even more immersive (!) if I could play a GoGo Yubari Undercover princess.

 

That would seriously rock!

 

You are a real ass clown. What are you 14? Strike the question aspect of that comment, clearly there's no question.

 

Ignore him, hes at the age where he things he has all the answers, too ignorant to know he is.. well.. ignorant about most things.

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Jericho sassed me so I broke into his house and stabbed him to death in his sleep. Problem solved. - J.E. Sawyer

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"I cannot profess to be a theologian; but it seems to me that Christians who believe in a super human Satan have got themselves into a logical impasse with regard to their own religion. For either God can not prevent the mischief of Satan, in which case he is not omnipotent; or else He could do so if he wished, but will not, in which case He is not benevolent. Fortunately, being a pagan witch, I am not called upon to solve this problem."

- Doreen Valiente

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Expecting "innovation" from Bioware is like expecting "normality" from Valve -Moatilliatta

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Oh, I know, I totally can't wait to play Aliens. This is just... different than the other Obsidian RPGs I've played. :lol: Not much customization, it seems.

 

Generally I have to agree with your assessment. It would be nice to have such customization and while I am really trying to like AP it seems its just not going to be the game for me. However, in Deus Ex, you were stuck with one character as your PC and that game turned out really well and was a great CRPG. So keep your options and mind open about AP you never know. :)

Admin of World of Darkness Online News

News/Community site for the WoD MMORPG

http://www.wodonlinenews.net

---

Jericho sassed me so I broke into his house and stabbed him to death in his sleep. Problem solved. - J.E. Sawyer

---

"I cannot profess to be a theologian; but it seems to me that Christians who believe in a super human Satan have got themselves into a logical impasse with regard to their own religion. For either God can not prevent the mischief of Satan, in which case he is not omnipotent; or else He could do so if he wished, but will not, in which case He is not benevolent. Fortunately, being a pagan witch, I am not called upon to solve this problem."

- Doreen Valiente

---

Expecting "innovation" from Bioware is like expecting "normality" from Valve -Moatilliatta

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Oh, I know, I totally can't wait to play Aliens. This is just... different than the other Obsidian RPGs I've played. :( Not much customization, it seems.

 

Generally I have to agree with your assessment. It would be nice to have such customization and while I am really trying to like AP it seems its just not going to be the game for me. However, in Deus Ex, you were stuck with one character as your PC and that game turned out really well and was a great CRPG. So keep your options and mind open about AP you never know. :)

 

Is that advice you're following, yourself?

"My hovercraft is full of eels!" - Hungarian tourist
I am Dan Quayle of the Romans.
I want to tattoo a map of the Netherlands on my nether lands.
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Oh, I know, I totally can't wait to play Aliens. This is just... different than the other Obsidian RPGs I've played. :( Not much customization, it seems.

 

Generally I have to agree with your assessment. It would be nice to have such customization and while I am really trying to like AP it seems its just not going to be the game for me. However, in Deus Ex, you were stuck with one character as your PC and that game turned out really well and was a great CRPG. So keep your options and mind open about AP you never know. :)

 

Is that advice you're following, yourself?

 

Yes it is. I am going to assume this is not a attempt by you at a poorly masked snide comment.

 

With that said while I have my concerns with AP and its below my radar at this point I will certainly check out the reviews and forum feedback. I -want- my mind to change in fact, and looking for reasons to do so. As I wish to support obsidian. Thus I can certainly per persuaded.

 

For the record I thought I was going to hate DE, I didn't buy it until over 6 months after it came out. But enough positive buzz made me re-think my stance and bought it. So while I don't think AP will be my cup of tea I never said I wouldn't buy it ever. Simply I was not planning on getting it but again, reviews and more details may change my mind.

 

I said the same about DA in fact in that thread.

Admin of World of Darkness Online News

News/Community site for the WoD MMORPG

http://www.wodonlinenews.net

---

Jericho sassed me so I broke into his house and stabbed him to death in his sleep. Problem solved. - J.E. Sawyer

---

"I cannot profess to be a theologian; but it seems to me that Christians who believe in a super human Satan have got themselves into a logical impasse with regard to their own religion. For either God can not prevent the mischief of Satan, in which case he is not omnipotent; or else He could do so if he wished, but will not, in which case He is not benevolent. Fortunately, being a pagan witch, I am not called upon to solve this problem."

- Doreen Valiente

---

Expecting "innovation" from Bioware is like expecting "normality" from Valve -Moatilliatta

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What the freak? You can't play a girl?

 

What the freak, Obsidian, what the freak?

 

This is like when those losers at Black Isle made Torment all over again. More like Planescape: Stupid. LOL. What? I can't play my pretty drow girl with pretty makeup and a pretty dress? I have to be a freaking ugly scarred naked guy? Freaking crap, what the Hades was up with that crap design? Look at Baldur's gate; it let me create the drow girls I wanted to roleplay. Yeah, BALDURS GATE FOREVER YEAAAAH I replayed it for the 86th time this weekend btw what a great game. I'm making mods for BG. You should play my mods. Vampire Bloodlines, that's another classic that let you play girls. Vampire girls. Man, that game was hot. Also, Fallout. That was a classic. You could play a girl vault dweller and go shot mutants in the face with your rocket launcher. Man, my girl character was so powerful in that game. YEAH GIRLS FOREVER!!! I admit it I enjoyed FO3 too, but it's just a game, get over yourselves. Besides, you could play a girl. A girl on a mission. To search for her dad. What a noble girl my character was. And then she was shooting mutants in the face with portable nukes. LOL she was great. It's just a game, though.

 

First you don't allow us to use the MOTB menu music in SoZ, and now this crap?

 

How the mighty have fallen. Though you were never mighty since you made that POS with only an ugly scarred naked guy as a protagonist. People bash FOPOS. But really, it should be POST. LOL

Hadescopy.jpg

(Approved by Fio, so feel free to use it)

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*Puts on frivolous game arguments hat* in response to a many day old argument.

 

@Krezack

I've always hated all this talk of hybrids ever since I saw a danish game mag try to make Deus Ex into a hybrid of just about all genres that exist, so I'm not going to accept such definitions.

 

Furthermore I always found the idea that simple choices in games suddenly make it into an RPG or a hybrid of some sort quite strange. Why must a FPS not have any meaningfull choice in it? is it somehow antithetical to the genre?

 

The reason for why I have mostly always supported Deus Ex as an RPG is because it has multiple mechanics that establish roleplaying, or at least try to do so:

 

Why do Paul always tell you to remember that you're police and "stick with the prod" when it doesn't actually matter to the gameplay? Because they wan't to establish roleplaying.

 

Why does the game allow you to choose the Dialogue of JC when it rarely, if ever, since I can't actually remember, impacts the game? Because JC is a blank slate whose shoes you're filling out.

 

As I remember NOLF doesn't have anything even remotely similar to that.

 

The Diablo business is a much more complex problem since it builds a lot on the historical perception (yeah that sounds silly when I'm talking about games :) ) of what makes an RPG. Personally if I had my way I'd put it in a hack'n'slash subfolder and be done with it.

I'd probably want to actually invent a new genre but then I would run into the animosity of the old-school dnd hack'n'slashers and I don't need that headache.

 

I also can't answer to SS2 since I'm still looking for it cheaply enough that I'll want to get it. I'm sorta hoping that Good old games or Steam will pick it up.

 

Anyway these are obviously just my opinions and not law or anything. I've always just felt it fits better this way.

 

Freaking crap, what the Hades was up with that crap design?

While we're on the subject of Hades and his multiple alts, will Thorton have a cute butt? This is very important to our gameplay experience since his butt will have center stage for large parts of the game. Don't screw up Obsidian!

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Freaking crap, what the Hades was up with that crap design?

While we're on the subject of Hades and his multiple alts, will Thorton have a cute butt? This is very important to our gameplay experience since his butt will have center stage for large parts of the game. Don't screw up Obsidian!

Theres a reason my main characters in WoW are always female.

Victor of the 5 year fan fic competition!

 

Kevin Butler will awesome your face off.

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Why do Paul always tell you to remember that you're police and "stick with the prod" when it doesn't actually matter to the gameplay? Because they wan't to establish roleplaying.

 

Why does the game allow you to choose the Dialogue of JC when it rarely, if ever, since I can't actually remember, impacts the game? Because JC is a blank slate whose shoes you're filling out.

 

As I remember NOLF doesn't have anything even remotely similar to that.

 

Actually, NOLF does. The dialogue is rarer from memory, as are the times you're told not to make a mess of things with civilians and such.

 

But what's arguably as strong as in Deus Ex is the scripted one-liners of the civilians and enemies. If you have the patience to listen instead of going in guns ablazing.

 

I don't generally call NOLF an RPG (an RPG-FPS hybrid at most). Same for SS2 (because while it has stats, skills, inventory, backstory and datapads, it does not have much non-linearity, has no branching dialogue, no NPCs which you can interact with, and no quests). Deus Ex, however, strikes enough bells in every category to qualify for a blanket 'RPG' qualifier.

 

Anyway, you're not saying anything I disagree with. :p

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