The future of RPGs

[Hell Kitty]

Yes, rpgs are now much more streamlined and easier to play

 

And those RPGs of old you say are better, they are streamlined and easier to play than even older ones. So I guess you're right, things are getting worse, but it didn't start with modern games.

 

I think that we can all agree that the rpgs today are not like PST.

 

But what you're missing is that RPGs of yesterday weren't like PST either.

[Nightshape]

The good old days of niche rpg's being aimed at niche markets are over. Get with the program, it's all about the mass market, why on earth do you guys think casual games are so popular (it's because ANYONE, even ya gran, can play 'em). Mass Market = More Sales, you'll get the odd gem which has been funded thanks to some mass market pile of crap, that's just the way it is, it's the way things have been going for a while.

 

I hate the attitude personally, this hollywood style of games development, but damnit... People are morons.

[Purkake]

Yes, rpgs are now much more streamlined and easier to play

And those RPGs of old you say are better, they are streamlined and easier to play than even older ones. So I guess you're right, things are getting worse, but it didn't start with modern games.

 

Maybe the problem is that I stepped into the rpg scene at the time of BG and PST. I'm not saying that getting more streamlines and easier to play is bad. I'm saying that the writing, story and characters are getting worse. It would be awesome if someone made a game with PST-style story and good combat.

 

I think that we can all agree that the rpgs today are not like PST.

 

But what you're missing is that RPGs of yesterday weren't like PST either.

 

They focused more on the story and less on graphics.

[Purkake]

The good old days of niche rpg's being aimed at niche markets are over. Get with the program, it's all about the mass market, why on earth do you guys think casual games are so popular (it's because ANYONE, even ya gran, can play 'em). Mass Market = More Sales, you'll get the odd gem which has been funded thanks to some mass market pile of crap, that's just the way it is, it's the way things have been going for a while.

 

I hate the attitude personally, this hollywood style of games development, but damnit... People are morons.

 

Speaking of movies, there is a place for both (crappy) Hollywood blockbusters and masterpieces that get critical acclaim, but don't make that much money.(I'm not even talking about niche indy movies). Both Transformers and There Will Be Blood were in theaters and made money. Also there are good movies like The Dark Knight that were popular with both the critics and made a lot of money.

 

Is the video game market ever going to be like that?

[Slowtrain]

The good old days of niche rpg's being aimed at niche markets are over. Get with the program, it's all about the mass market, why on earth do you guys think casual games are so popular (it's because ANYONE, even ya gran, can play 'em). Mass Market = More Sales, you'll get the odd gem which has been funded thanks to some mass market pile of crap, that's just the way it is, it's the way things have been going for a while.

 

I hate the attitude personally, this hollywood style of games development, but damnit... People are morons.

 

 

It's interesting though that other entertainments do seem to be able to sustain both a mass market segment and a niche segment. Movies, plays, music, books, board games, newspapers, magaiznes, heck even comic books, seem to be able to have mainstream titles coexisting with niche titles. Computer/video gaming just doesn't seem to be able to do this for some reason.

 

I'm hopeful that this is because computer/video gaming is still a relatively new entertainmen medium and as it settles into middle age will begin to broaden rather than continue to narrow.

 

 

 

 

Speaking of movies, there is a place for both (crappy) Hollywood blockbusters and masterpieces that get critical acclaim, but don't make that much money.(I'm not even talking about niche indy movies). Both Transformers and There Will Be Blood were in theaters and made money. Also there are good movies like The Dark Knight that were popular with both the critics and made a lot of money.

 

Is the video game market ever going to be like that?

 

 

Agreed. And it is more than just movies that do this as well.

Edited December 26, 2008 by CrashGirl

[Hell Kitty]

I'm saying that the writing, story and characters are getting worse.

 

Explain how this is true without using specific titles (because that's when people just pointlessly list games they like).

 

less on graphics.

 

This is a common complaint amongst gamers, and I suppose it's true to an extent, but it's important not to confuse a limitation with a choice.

[Slowtrain]

[. I'm not saying that getting more streamlines and easier to play is bad.

 

 

It depends though on what is done to "streamline" something. On what is being removed. If one "streamlines" Moby **** by reducing a 500 page novel down into the bare 20 or 30 required for the basic plot elements, then the streamlined version will certainly be quicker to read and more accessible, but will it be better?

 

Or if you take The Lord of the Rings and streamline it by removing all words over two syllables, it it better?

 

Currently I think game developers are so obessed with getting big sales that they are reducing detaill and complexity way too much for my tastes.

[Morgoth]

The sheer amount of content and massive amount of text certainly helped to make PS:T the memorable gem we all know. There was just more space for explaining history and interacting with characters. These days though you're lucky if you get 3 smaller maps for sidequesting. And full VO also dictates the amount of overall writing and quests, so it's understandable that there aren't so many indepth and philosophical discussions with NPCs anymore.

[Purkake]

I'm saying that the writing, story and characters are getting worse.

 

Explain how this is true without using specific titles (because that's when people just pointlessly list games they like).

 

 

The stories are less original and more cliche "save the world" stuff. The writing suffers because less money is spent on writers and more on other things like graphic design and marketing, voice acting is severely limiting the dialog options and number of NPCs. Also, the choices are removed or simplified to make the game more accessible to the mass market with shorter attentions span.

 

While FPSs are getting interesting and unique characters like Alyx in Half-Life 2, rpgs are suffering from uninteresting character stereotypes. They also lack backstories, motivation and sometimes interaction between characters is reduced to casting a spell on each other.

 

less on graphics.

 

This is a common complaint amongst gamers, and I suppose it's true to an extent, but it's important not to confuse a limitation with a choice.

 

The difference is that story has never been limited, only the graphics. Now that graphics are really good, why isn't story catching up?

Edited December 26, 2008 by Purkake

[skuld1]

It's interesting though that other entertainments do seem to be able to sustain both a mass market segment and a niche segment. Movies, plays, music, books, board games, newspapers, magaiznes, heck even comic books, seem to be able to have mainstream titles coexisting with niche titles. Computer/video gaming just doesn't seem to be able to do this for some reason.

 

?

 

Wargaming is one example of a computer gaming niche that has been around for decades. Vogel's games (Avernum, etc) are another good example.

[Diogo Ribeiro]

@Purkake:

 

Outside Torment, and in the same time period you have singled out, how many old cRPGs did not feature the whole "save the world" or "save a world" as a story or motivation?

[Purkake]

@Purkake:

 

Outside Torment, and in the same time period you have singled out, how many old cRPGs did not feature the whole "save the world" or "save a world" as a story or motivation?

 

Well, BG2, Anachronox. The point is that they were trying to be original and different. Today it seems that no one takes any risks, because failure costs too much.

Edited December 26, 2008 by Purkake

[Llyranor]

interesting and unique characters like Alyx in Half-Life 2

ROFL

 

Hey, if you're going to say that, I'm going to have to argue that Carth was an interesting, well developed character.

[Nick_i_am]

He was duh, it's like saying that Halo had a plot.

[Purkake]

interesting and unique characters like Alyx in Half-Life 2

ROFL

 

Hey, if you're going to say that, I'm going to have to argue that Carth was an interesting, well developed character.

 

I find her interesting and unique. Do you have any reasons to think otherwise?

[Morgoth]

I agree. Alyx is a great developed and charming character. Don't listen to Llyr, he's just angry.

[Llyranor]

That's what I said. And Carth was an interesting, well developed character.

[aries101]

It seems to me that every 10 years or so, the computer rpg (and maybe adventure games, too?) have a great period. The Golden Age of RPGs was from 1996/97-2001/2002, probably most concentrated around 1999-2001 or so. During that time, many great games were released. Many poor games were released as well, Daikaitana...whose demo were so terrible, I couldn't even move... Humans seem to be forgetting the negative aspects of something and only remember the lighter, positive sides of things....

 

During these years, from 2007-2009 (or from 2008-2010) it seems that the golden age is coming back. Mass Effect, Drakensang, Age of Decadence,

Dragon Age: Origins, Fallout 3, and a lot of other rpgs are coming out - as well as lots of good shooters like Stalker, COD4, Bioshock. Now shooters seem to have a good story as well as good shooting. And the computer rpg seem to blend in with the shooter to get more action. I, for one, like this.

 

A good game is still a good game, no matter what, and whether it is an adventure game, an rpg or shooter...

[Morgoth]

No, Carth was a weep. But hey, different tastes and all that...

[mkreku]

Maybe the problem is that I stepped into the rpg scene at the time of BG and PST.

No, that is not the problem. I went into the RPG abyss at the time Wasteland was released. Guess which is my favourite RPG of all time? Wasteland. Since then I've been hoping for another RPG as great or greater than Wasteland, but I quickly realized that what I really wanted was to experience the same emotions that Wasteland gave me back then. Just like you don't want more games resembling Planescape: Torment; you actually want Planescape: Torment again. Or that experience. But it's impossible.

 

I've learnt to appreciate the technological advancements made since Wasteland was made in 1988. Now I still think Wasteland was awesome but I would never want to go back to it. And the third dimension has me in a firm grip by now..

 

By the way, try asking a kid of today which is his favourite RPG. Most will answer Mass Effect or Fallout 3, games which we may think are more shallow than the ones we grew up with. But realize that these kids, in ten years time, will be defending Mass Effect and Fallout 3 the same way we are defending our ancient games now against the new even more 'shallow' titles.. It seems to be the way things work.

[Purkake]

Maybe the problem is that I stepped into the rpg scene at the time of BG and PST.

No, that is not the problem. I went into the RPG abyss at the time Wasteland was released. Guess which is my favourite RPG of all time? Wasteland. Since then I've been hoping for another RPG as great or greater than Wasteland, but I quickly realized that what I really wanted was to experience the same emotions that Wasteland gave me back then. Just like you don't want more games resembling Planescape: Torment; you actually want Planescape: Torment again. Or that experience. But it's impossible.

 

I've learnt to appreciate the technological advancements made since Wasteland was made in 1988. Now I still think Wasteland was awesome but I would never want to go back to it. And the third dimension has me in a firm grip by now..

 

By the way, try asking a kid of today which is his favourite RPG. Most will answer Mass Effect or Fallout 3, games which we may think are more shallow than the ones we grew up with. But realize that these kids, in ten years time, will be defending Mass Effect and Fallout 3 the same way we are defending our ancient games now against the new even more 'shallow' titles.. It seems to be the way things work.

 

Yeah that could be it. Can't wait to laugh at the Mass Effect kiddies in ten years. Maybe then BG2 and PST will have finally become retro games and people will talk about them again.

[Maria Caliban]

Or if you take The Lord of the Rings and streamline it by removing all words over two syllables, it it better?

 

Was it great to begin with? No. Does shrinking it make it better? At least it doesn't waste so much of the reader's time.

 

The Lord of the Rings is a wildly popular and imitated fantasy novel (or sextet) but it

Edited December 26, 2008 by Maria Caliban

[Niten_Ryu]

2008 was a good year for PC RPGs.

 

Mass Effect and Fallout 3 both managed to suprise me with their quality. Last year wasn't bad either with excellent Mask of The Betrayer and The Witcher. I'd say PC RPGs are still alive and well... It's not as great as it was in 2000 but then again it's not as poor as it was in mid 90's (hopefully none can remember turds like Menzoberranzan or Ravenloft: Stone Prophet).

[Maria Caliban]

What RPGs came out this year?

 

Mass Effect PC

Fallout 3

Fable II

WoW: Wrath of the Lich King

The Witcher

Rise of the Argonauts

Sacred 2: Fallen Angel

NWN2: Storm of Zehir

Gothic 3: Forsaken Gods

Age of Conan

Warhammer Online

Two-Worlds

Chrono Trigger (on DS)

 

 

Can anyone else think of others? (Or add the JRPGs that I know nothing about?)

Edited December 27, 2008 by Maria Caliban

[Wrath of Dagon]

There's definitely a decline in quality of Bioware RPG's. I liked Oblivion better than Morrowind, so from my point of view Bethesda is improving, haven't got around to Fallout 3 yet. My biggest problem with games is there's just not the same variety there used to be a few years ago, because many great games last generation were commercial failures.

 

And Halo does have a plot, and a very good one for its purposes.