Fighting breaks out in South Ossetia

[Walsingham]

Alright Brdavs, you have a point that we're biased up to a point. But go easy willya? I'm happy to compare the situation with the Balkans, but it's far from identical.

 

As for being Soviet-phobic, yes I'm old school, but you'd have an even harder time convicning me that the Russians are friendly at the moment.

[Brdavs]

and most of the people living there have Russian passports

Yes, because Russia has been aggressively campaigning to get them to sign up for Russian passports. During the days of the USSR, the communist government encouraged ethnic Russians to go and settle in the other republics in order to dilute nationalist tendencies. This meant that when the USSR broke up, lots of other republics were left with large ethnic Russian minorities. So the new Russian tactic appears to be:

 

1. Find a region with lots of ethnic Russians.

2. Encourage them all to apply for Russian passports, thus making them Russia's problem.

3. Encourage them to stir up trouble with their government (demanding independence etc.)

4. When their own government tries to keep order, send in the tanks.

 

This could be applied in a number of former Soviet republics. They might not go for Latvia next, as that's already in NATO, but Ukraine is a possibility.

 

Look at the whole story not just 1 part of a sentance.

 

Ossetians are not ethnic russians. theyre ossetians. I think 10% of the ossetian population is russian.

 

Their region got artificially divided and landed in georgia to promote "soviet brotherly bonding" or whatever. They never held georgian passports. As soon as SU collapsed they fought bitterly to cesede on theirown. With russian/UN intervention the conflict was "frozen". Up untill when Kosovo was granted independace cos it was the "right thing to do".

 

Georgia trying to keep order? Ossetia has been DEFACTO INDEPENDANT FOR 18 years. What you call "restoring order" on the ground looks like a invasion into a neighboring country. The freaking leveled their capital killing 1k plus cililians ffs. How is that justifiable? Ossetians are throwing words like ethnic cleansing around and are flocking to Northen Ossetia (in Russia)... And I`m supposed to root for Saakashvili to restore "constitutional order"? Has the world gone mad?

 

 

Now, who is gonna look them in the eye and say they have no right to theirown country/future in Russian federation when they`ve been fighting for just as long and more bitterly and have far greater historical & ethnical claim to that region/path and its "noninclusion" into Georgia than Kosovo ever had? The freedome loving and will of the people respecting West? Are we REALLY gonna be that hypocritical so soon?

 

 

@Walsingham: define friendly heh... If you do it by "not taking lying down of the west trying to mucsle it out of its own backyard using even such agressive and insane moves by its pro-W regimes" I guess you`re right... Maybe its time for us to back off a bit instead of expecting them to take it lying down heh? Tides have turned a bit afterall...

Edited August 9, 2008 by Brdavs

[Tigranes]

Honestly, its one of those things where you think you've got your scales figured out - who did what, who attacked first, and all - only to find out more things that've been going on 'under thd hood'. Is Russia the bad guy or Georgia, or SO? Heh. I won't be trying to figure that one out, or wheere my sympathies should lie - except for the civilians in the crossfire.

 

What is undeniable is that (a) it's very difficult to accuse the Russians because they've done their homework; (b) they're going to be quite crudely painted as evil big empire anyway by the western media.

[Walsingham]

Well, you have a good point about being secessionist for just as long. On teh other hand, recognition for this region as a sovereign state, and hence able to choose is rather sparse. Even bonkers places like North Korea haven't agreed.

 

I think you're being needlessly jingoistic about taking things in the 'back yard' 'lying down'. It's only the back yard according to an excessively aggressive legacy from Ivan the Terrible/Joe Stalin. I'd like to think we could move on from that, unless we want to go back to the old days of Cold War, and I don't. Or, to put it another way, if i were a Georgian, why the hell should I have to kowtow to Russia?

[Sand]

EH, Brdavs? Human is human. Everything else is irrelevant details.

[Hildegard]

But of course, there aren't at all enough protests about brutal bombing of the capital of S. Ossetia with MLRS and howitzers by the Georgians, brutal. Well for the rest of the world it seems unimportant due to the Russian intervention.

[Brdavs]

Well, you have a good point about being secessionist for just as long. On teh other hand, recognition for this region as a sovereign state, and hence able to choose is rather sparse. Even bonkers places like North Korea haven't agreed.

 

I think you're being needlessly jingoistic about taking things in the 'back yard' 'lying down'. It's only the back yard according to an excessively aggressive legacy from Ivan the Terrible/Joe Stalin. I'd like to think we could move on from that, unless we want to go back to the old days of Cold War, and I don't. Or, to put it another way, if i were a Georgian, why the hell should I have to kowtow to Russia?

 

Well I suppose you have to view the "backyard" comments with the same mindset you do when there is talk of renewed Russian bases on Cuba or fresh tank divizions on our side of the Urals... good old interest zones and "too close for comfort" bases heh...

 

 

In the end this may have started with georgians forcibly "subduing" a 18 year independant region that it has practically no ties with... but it has escalated into a full cold war style proxy showdown heh... US & Izrael heavily involved in the equiping training and buildup of material. As it ended up for the "anexation" of Ossetia. US will also do a favour and airlift the 2000 georgian troops home asap heh... ;P

 

And afterall there is oil and pipelines in them regions heh. Could be that the stakes are much higher now. Will be interesting to see what happens. My bet for now is still on Russia pushing them back to the unrecognized "borders" and then forcing in a status quo of old...

[Walsingham]

Actually I do take the view that Cuba has a perfect right to choose its strategic allies. Perhaps that comes from sitting with Ireland at our backs...

[SteveThaiBinh]

FYI: The South Ossetians' point of view, in (I presume) their own words: http://www.cominf.org/english/

 

Stop the genocide of the Ossetians!

The nationalistic and fascist government of Georgia from the year 1989 support the policy of the annihilation and the impression of the aboriginal Ossetian population from the territory that they occupy. From 1991 as a consequence of repeated military actions that were undertaken by the criminal authorities of Georgia against the small nations and the national purge murdered thousands of people –Ossetians, Abkhazians, Armenians, Russians. At the same time the scale of the genocide passed over the silence by mass media. The atrocity of the Georgian fascists, the tortures surpassed the one of the German fascists during the World War II.

 

The BBC site on South Ossetia claims its president doesn't want independence, he wants South Ossetia to join the Russian Federation. I did wonder about this, because as North Ossetia is part of Russia you would normally expect Russia to oppose South Ossetian independence (lest the North Ossetians start demanding it too. ).

[Dark_Raven]

Actually I do take the view that Cuba has a perfect right to choose its strategic allies. Perhaps that comes from sitting with Ireland at our backs...

Yeah those fighting Irish are going to invade you yet.

[Azarkon]

So the UN is helpless, as usual:

 

http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2008/08/10/...uth-Ossetia.php

 

From what I can see, Russia really wants to teach Georgia a lesson, if not destroy its military outright. The message seems to be, "this war will be over when the Georgians relinquish all control over South Ossetia, and not sooner." If Russia gets its way, the result will likely be an annexation or a puppet state in South Ossetia. I wonder how the West will respond.

[Zoma]

Ever since UN failed to stop the US from invading Iraq after deeming the war itself illegal, its role of stopping other super powers from invading other small nations is pretty much useless.

 

So the UN we have now is simply a figurehead.

Edited August 10, 2008 by Zoma

[Walsingham]

Ever since UN failed to stop the US from invading Iraq after deeming the war itself illegal, its role of stopping other super powers from invading other small nations is pretty much useless.

 

So the UN we have now is simply a figurehead.

 

You mean the way it NEVER stops anyone invading anyone? Since Korea?

[Hildegard]

Georgia announces ceasefire

 

So can we say that it is actually over, Georgia is defeated when it comes to their attempt to impose control over South Ossetia.

[Deadly_Nightshade]

Ever since UN failed to stop the US from invading Iraq...

 

Ummm.... It was a figurehead long before that...

[Walsingham]

Georgia announces ceasefire

 

So can we say that it is actually over, Georgia is defeated when it comes to their attempt to impose control over South Ossetia.

 

I don't think the Russians are stopping. I suspect the next move will be to use the Spetsnaz units to try and seize anyone pro-American politicians, and have them tried on genocide charges.

[Volourn]

Hilarious to see that a thread about a war between Russia and Georgie has its share of US bashing. LOL

[Azarkon]

So, according to Georgian reports, Russia is launching an invasion of Georgia proper. How long before the Russians call it quits. More importantly, how long before NATO intervenes?

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/11/world/eu...amp;oref=slogin

[jodo kast 5]

So, according to Georgian reports, Russia is launching an invasion of Georgia proper. How long before the Russians call it quits. More importantly, how long before NATO intervenes?

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/11/world/eu...amp;oref=slogin

1. Knowing the Russians, they'll call it quits when they have Georgia under their rule and at their mercy. Much like what they did and are still doing with Chechnya right now.

 

2. Simple; never. NATO's pretty much like the UN; won't stand up to the Russians, probably due to the fact that the Russians having a near-ridiculous amount of nuclear warheads(16,000, to be exact).

Edited August 11, 2008 by jodo kast 5

[Azarkon]

I think with this, the Russians have pretty much admitted that their goal in Georgia is "regime change":

 

http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/08/10...rgia/index.html

[jodo kast 5]

I think with this, the Russians have pretty much admitted that their goal in Georgia is "regime change":

 

http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/08/10...rgia/index.html

...meaning they'll do like they did with Chechnya; appoint a puppet government in place that abides with them doing whatever they'd like with the country and people.

 

And NATO has already had talks with the Russians about this, Russians said they wouldn't stop for noone.

Edited August 11, 2008 by jodo kast 5

[Volourn]

So... Russai *does* believe in regime change based on force? K, then. I guess all their whining about Iraq was bull? Yup, it's as I thought. Yet, people seem to be shrugging their shoulders over this while theyw ere crying blooody murder when the US and others were doing it? L0L

[WILL THE ALMIGHTY]

Wait.

 

 

Isn't Georgia a state?

[Moatilliatta]

This is an alright article for anyone who doesn't know much of what happended before this.

 

Georgia: Russia targets key oil pipeline with over 50 missiles

I've always believed that energy independence from Russia can't come fast enough and this just cements my opinion.

[Walsingham]

This is an alright article for anyone who doesn't know much of what happended before this.

 

Georgia: Russia targets key oil pipeline with over 50 missiles

I've always believed that energy independence from Russia can't come fast enough and this just cements my opinion.

 

 

 

ROFL. And the price of oil is up again. With Russia totally dependant on oil for hard currency I am sure we can expect a peace move soon.

 

I was thinking about this this morning. I don't normally rekect counter-arguments completely, but I've totally discarded the notion that Russia isn't the aggressor. I mean, the counter-argument is that

 

1. Georgia started a fight against an opponent with a crushing superiority in numbers and equipment.

2. It did so while two thousand of its best troops were away.

3. It did so without securing the single and extremely vulnerable road tunnel link to Russia

4. It did so when it's ally, the USA, could not possible support it.

 

5. EDIT: And it does so, when a short wait would have landed it inside NATO, first.

 

This seems to me as likely as the old joke about the policeman claiming a young man brutal landed his groin on his boot cap, badly scuffing the shoe-leather.