Thoughts on Mandatory Combat

[triCritical]

What are Obsidian's thoughts on Mandatory combat in KotOR? One of things that really turned me off KotOR was its combat. It was probably the worst combat I have ever played since SoulBringer.

 

Anyhow one of the things that clearly annoyed me is that you have multiple classes that are either not good, or good at combat. However, when faced with combat options the playing field is completely the same, hence there is a serious unbalancing issue. Obviously a soldier is going to do better in combat then a scoundrel, and unlike games like BG, and Arcanum where you can rely on the strength of your NPC's, the KotOR NPC's normally, for me at least, were not that effective and the AI was nothing more then a random number generator selecting combat moves, it was awful. Yeah I know you could alternate party members but this would have made the combat even more dull.

 

I think Taris was a good example of Bioware trying to make good level design, its too bad the rest of the game devolved into linear hack and slash levels. But giving different classes different ways of solving quest and infiltrating would take a huge burden of the dull combat especially for those characters not combat friendly. And for those characters that are combat friendly please don't make us do speeder races and inconcievable quest to save a jedi. Just let us blast a hole in the wall and let us kill everything inside, or die trying.

 

I know the Bioweenies have always loved to make hack and slash adventure games, with pitiful combat, so I was wondering if Obsidian was planning more of a PS:T approach. In other words, understand that the weakness of KotOR was its combat, much like the IE's weakness, and instead make an adventure/roleplaying game more along the same lines as PS:T. IMHO, this would dramatically improve KotOR, to the point were I would actually be able to finish it. Worst combat moment in a game ever, was fighting those two robots at the first star forge! BIOWARE STOLE 10 MINUTES OF MY LIFE WITH THE EQUIVALENT OF STANDARDS AND I WANT THEM BACK!!!!!!!!!!!

[Diogo Ribeiro]

As long as PS:T's deficient combat model isn't taken as an example as well, i agree with that.

[tripleRRR]

As long as PS:T's deficient combat model isn't taken as an example as well, i agree with that.

Hear hear.

 

 

TripleRRR

[kefka]

Worst combat moment in a game ever, was fighting those two robots at the first star forge!

What moment is that exactly? I only remember fighting the Star Forge droids that Malak sends against you, and those fell easily to my force lightning.. hehe!

If you mean the unknown world temple, then yes, there are two strong droids blocking your path, but they can also be destroyed by lightning or destroy droid. I never had any trouble with droids to even consider them a threat.

[kefka]

Perhaps you meant the droids on Dantooine when you find the first Star Map? Yes, they are fairly tough, especially with lightsabers (energy resistance) but since both Canderous and Zalbaar are available with melee weapons the droids are simple. If you only rely on Jedi (without destroy droid) then yeah, I see how this could be a problem.

[triCritical]

Perhaps you meant the droids on Dantooine when you find the first Star Map? Yes, they are fairly tough, especially with lightsabers (energy resistance) but since both Canderous and Zalbaar are available with melee weapons the droids are simple. If you only rely on Jedi (without destroy droid) then yeah, I see how this could be a problem.

They were exteremely simple. That wasn't not my point. THE BATTLE LASTED FOREVER, and it was not the only battle that dragged on. Never once was any of my characters in danger. My point is not that KotOR combat was hard. Its that it was dull and boring and only required patience not skill and smarts.

 

And your raise an interesting point with the light sabers and droids. One of the biggest things that irritated me about the DnD'afication of Star Wars, were all the rules and laws that made absolutely no sense. In all the non-Bioware Star Wars I have ever read a light saber could cut through anything especially droids and solid metals. In KotOR, my saber was only slightly better then a bastard sword.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

And your raise an interesting point with the light sabers and droids. One of the biggest things that irritated me about the DnD'afication of Star Wars, were all the rules and laws that made absolutely no sense. In all the non-Bioware Star Wars I have ever read a light saber could cut through anything especially droids and solid metals. In KotOR, my saber was only slightly better then a bastard sword.

Why do you think they legged it from the Droid destroyers in EP I.

 

As for the droids I tossed them around with force wave or something along that line. Not a problem.

[Junkyard Wolf]

I agree some of the combat took way to long,But(had to see that comming)If they made the lightsabers work as you say,there would be little challange against non-lightsaber equiped opponents.wheres the fun in that?

[kefka]

They were exteremely simple. That wasn't not my point. THE BATTLE LASTED FOREVER, and it was not the only battle that dragged on.

Well, the droids on Dantooine are extremely simple like you said, and the battle is over in about 10 seconds because of that. It couldn't "last forever" unless you had no way to damage them. That's what I meant.

 

I initially fought them with lightsabers and made no progress at all.. then I put Zaalbar in my party and they were easy. Most droids in Kotor have energy resistance but at least you have some devastating force powers or special saber crystals to use against them (too late for dantooine, however).

I agree that lightsabers are too weak. Even Jedi should consider a melee weapon for all the advantage a saber gives you.

 

Anyway, combat is a weakness of KotOR but I still enjoyed it.

I proposed instant kill lightsabers for Kotor2 but most people didn't like that idea, saying it would lead to too many reloads. The battles would be over in seconds. Blasters could be a little stronger too. They get progressively worse when your enemies have good defense vs blasters - dark jedi/energy shields, etc.

[Drakron]

True but I point out that in Star Wars d20 lightsabers are more letal since they ignore armor, also acording to Star Wars d20 rules unless those star forge droids have levels in a heroic class all damange done to then would be wound damage and they would go down in 2-3 hits if they had a Con score of 10.

[triCritical]

I agree some of the combat took way to long,But(had to see that comming)If they made the lightsabers work as you say,there would be little challange against non-lightsaber equiped opponents.wheres the fun in that?

The fun is in designing a better game. For one thing Jedi's can kick the crap out just about anything that is not a jedi, agreed? That is why the adventuring aspect was the good idea and all of the mundane combat was the bad idea. I am a firm believer in a low number of difficult and tactical encounters over many easy ones like in KotOR. I guess I am just not a big fan of a hack and slash game with a weak combat engine. Star Wars should not boil down to DnD in space, but I guess since that is all they have been able to do for all but two of their games I should not be surprised.

[triCritical]

They were exteremely simple. That wasn't not my point. THE BATTLE LASTED FOREVER, and it was not the only battle that dragged on.

Well, the droids on Dantooine are extremely simple like you said, and the battle is over in about 10 seconds because of that. It couldn't "last forever" unless you had no way to damage them. That's what I meant.

 

I initially fought them with lightsabers and made no progress at all.. then I put Zaalbar in my party and they were easy. Most droids in Kotor have energy resistance but at least you have some devastating force powers or special saber crystals to use against them (too late for dantooine, however).

I agree that lightsabers are too weak. Even Jedi should consider a melee weapon for all the advantage a saber gives you.

I found lightsabers to be pretty damn useless too. I used vibro blades, and that is when it took a long time. I think the major problem was just the amount of hitdice the droids had, and the fact that the combat wasn't challenging, just an exercise in futility.

[AlanC9]

Was KotOR's combat truly a weakness for most of its fans? I get the impression from the BioBoards that most folks liked the combat, though many consider the game too easy.

 

And somehow, suggesting that you should model the sequel to a game that was a commercial success on a game that was a commercial failure strikes me as a less-than-persuasive argument. Even though you're right, and it would be a better game.

 

Just out of curiosity, where did you quit KotOR?

[Volourn]

When he read that BIO was developing it...

 

That said, I didn't reallyc are for the combat either. Not completely horrible; but it was overall too easy and the crappy controls didn't help much. Improve them both.

 

Of cours,e unlike others, i realzie that the majority loved the combat as is. Deal with it.

[newc0253]

Of cours,e unlike others, i realzie that the majority loved the combat as is. Deal with it.

good ole Volourn, always willing to tow the line no matter how much he disagrees with it...

 

KoTOR combat suffered precisely from what someone else called 'D&Dization of Star Wars':

 

1. blasters first of all, have you ever seen a blaster battle where both foes simply stand out in the middle of a corridor like it was the main street in a western? unless they were both blind and crippled, one of them would be dead within seconds. almost all blaster fights in SW takes place with cover.

 

2. lightsabres a duel should only be possible b/w two opponents with lightsabres. the idea of someone with a vibro-blade (wtf?) or a blaster holding their ground within swinging distance of a lightsabre is just dumb.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

good ole Volourn, always willing to tow the line no matter how much he disagrees with it...

 

KoTOR combat suffered precisely from what someone else called 'D&Dization of Star Wars':

 

1. blasters first of all, have you ever seen a blaster battle where both foes simply stand out in the middle of a corridor like it was the main street in a western? unless they were both blind and crippled, one of them would be dead within seconds. almost all blaster fights in SW takes place with cover.

 

2. lightsabres a duel should only be possible b/w two opponents with lightsabres. the idea of someone with a vibro-blade (wtf?) or a blaster holding their ground within swinging distance of a lightsabre is just dumb.

But he is correct. Most people were happy enough with KOTORs combat not to feel the need to complain. Those who are complaining are for the most part those who didnt like the IE/NWN combat either, which really wouldnt suprise anyone as they follow the same basic model.

[Diogo Ribeiro]

Disregarding those that didn't like the style of combat itself, the combat was in fact too easy, and mostly because of what tri and newc0253 pointed out. Simply because the combat was apparently liked by many people doesn't mean it shouldn't be improved.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Disregarding those that didn't like the style of combat itself, the combat was in fact too easy, and mostly because of what tri and newc0253 pointed out. Simply because the combat was apparently liked by many people doesn't mean it shouldn't be improved.

When I finally find an RPG with difficult combat I will let you know

 

Well it depends if those improvements lead them disliking the combat or not. KOTORs combat flowed beautifuly and had a very cinematic feel to it.

[Drakron]

But he is correct. Most people were happy enough with KOTORs combat not to feel the need to complain. Those who are complaining are for the most part those who didnt like the IE/NWN combat either, which really wouldnt suprise anyone as they follow the same basic model.

 

I dont think so, a common complain was that Malak was too easy but then again most players are offline.

 

Also people like me liked IE combat, even NwN combat that lacks a tactical control is better that SWKotOR due to having more options and a more balanced system.

 

Problem with SWKotOR is that we have Taris that does require some "hands ons" control by the player and Dantooine/1st world that still required some control, after those parts combat became more and more "click and watch" that anything else.

 

Class balance is another issue.

[Diogo Ribeiro]

When I finally find an RPG with difficult combat I will let you know

 

Well it depends if those improvements lead them disliking the combat or not. KOTORs combat flowed beautifuly and had a very cinematic feel to it.

Well combat doesn't have to be difficult. It just needs to be challenging, and fun. While no doubt there's always people who found KoTOR's combat fun, it was likely more due to the cinematic presentation and not for its simplicity (after all, many Bioware fans liked combat in the BG series as well, and BG2's combat was deeper). For instance, i liked ToEE's combat, but if the AI used more combat abilities in combat, it'd certainly be more challenging.

 

Combat was cinematic, but i don't think that combat should be like that. I found the cinematic presentation just made it feel shallower. No amount of Hollywoodesque embelishment around it hid the fact it was a shallow combat model.

[Volourn]

Huh, Shadow? That's werid. I love NWN combat. It's much more tatical, intuitive, challenging, and fun then KOTOR's. KOTOR may have the same basic combat system as both NWN and the IE agmes; but it was way to simplistic and along with the awful controls (relatively speaking) it just isn't up to snuff.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

KOTORs is preferable just for the fact you can actually control the NPC's. B)

 

It's important to seperate the D&D'ness from the actual combat system though.

D&D is more varied because you have a much more diverse enemy line up with very different abilities. Which in turn requires you to adapt more. This becomes apparent in the various magic items you can aquire to fulfil specific tasks.

 

Magic in D&D has a huge impact on how combat plays out. While force powers sort of simulate magic, its not in the same fashion. Likewise you really dont see people in SW carrying around different weapons for different situations. A blaster is a blaster all that changes is the damage it can do. There is nothing particulary "interesting" about one like with D&D weapons. Likewise , even a lightsaber customised to the n'th still dosnt have the same intrigue as finding a holy avenger or putting together a hammer of T bolts from parts.

 

From the start the goal was to make cinematic combat which gave the feeling of playing in your very own SW movie. I'd say they met their goal there. I'm sure they could add some more active feats without altering that fundamental very much.

[Drakron]

KOTORs is preferable just for the fact you can actually control the NPC's.

 

Up to a point, you can simply switch to another party member.

 

It's important to seperate the D&D'ness from the actual combat system though.

D&D is more varied because you have a much more diverse enemy line up with very different abilities. Which in turn requires you to adapt more. This becomes apparent in the various magic items you can aquire to fulfil specific tasks.

 

 

It uses the d20 system ... you know HOW many system uses d20 system without it being related to D&D?

 

D20 modern, Call of Chutulu and Star Wars d20

 

3 diferent system so no, you have no idea of what you are talking about except if you are saying that SWKotOR used elements of D&D that simply created balance issues (with will be true).

 

Magic in D&D has a huge impact on how combat plays out. While force powers sort of simulate magic, its not in the same fashion. Likewise you really dont see people in SW carrying around different weapons for different situations. A blaster is a blaster all that changes is the damage it can do. There is nothing particulary "interesting" about one like with D&D weapons. Likewise , even a lightsaber customised to the n'th still dosnt have the same intrigue as finding a holy avenger or putting together a hammer of T bolts from parts.

 

No, it does not.

 

if you scrap the magic system you still have a playable system and the only problem is if something from the magic system is still in there, that can create problems but it sould be easy to spot in QA (of course BioWare QA is ... EA related).

 

BioWare decision to make that system was bad, +3 blasters were a stupid idea along with other stupid ideas that really dont belong in Star Wars universe but its because BioWare was lazy and used their D&D knowledege for a Star Wars game with the results we can all see.

 

And sorry people in Star Wars USE diferent weapons for diferent situations, Solo used a lightsaber to open a TanTan belly as a example.

 

From the start the goal was to make cinematic combat which gave the feeling of playing in your very own SW movie. I'd say they met their goal there. I'm sure they could add some more active feats without altering that fundamental very much.

 

Right ... and how you can make such cllaim unless you are a BioWare staff menber imvolved in SWKotOR development and even if you are BioWare they already made false claims, just look at their replies about NwN to see examples of that.

[newc0253]

Those who are complaining are for the most part those who didnt like the IE/NWN combat either, which really wouldnt suprise anyone as they follow the same basic model.

that's some weird-@ssed basic model you've got there, given how different NWN combat was from the IE games.

 

i liked IE combat. i disliked NWN combat. but neither is especially appropriate for what is basically an SF game with laser swords. KOTOR combat was okay for lightsabre duels, but for everything else it was silly.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

 

Up to a point, you can simply switch to another party member.

 

 

It uses the d20 system ... you know HOW many system uses d20 system without it being related to D&D?

 

D20 modern, Call of Chutulu and Star Wars d20

 

3 diferent system so no, you have no idea of what you are talking about except if you are saying that SWKotOR used elements of D&D that simply created balance issues (with will be true).

 

No, it does not.

 

if you scrap the magic system you still have a playable system and the only problem is if something from the magic system is still in there, that can create problems but it sould be easy to spot in QA (of course BioWare QA is ... EA related).

 

BioWare decision to make that system was bad, +3 blasters were a stupid idea along with other stupid ideas that really dont belong in Star Wars universe but its because BioWare was lazy and used their D&D knowledege for a Star Wars game with the results we can all see.

 

And sorry people in Star Wars USE diferent weapons for diferent situations, Solo used a lightsaber to open a TanTan belly as a example.

 

Right ... and how you can make such cllaim unless you are a BioWare staff menber imvolved in SWKotOR development and even if you are BioWare they already made false claims, just look at their replies about NwN to see examples of that.

At which point you have full control over the NPC's actions. Not a difficult thing to comprehend really is it ?

 

Oops looks like that one went over your head too.Perhaps Voloun will get it as it was addressed at him.

 

If you remove the magic and the magic items from D&D there isnt a great deal left. Most of the tactics of D&D comes from the proper use of magic and magic items in CRPGs. While it may be playable its no longer very interesting. Because if you lose the magic then you lose all the magic creatures and everything related to it.

Perhaps thats why Fantasy is more popular. There is just more you can do with it.

 

Bioware did what they set out to do. Whether its something you like or not , really not a concern.

 

Nice try but its hardly a combat example is it. In D&D having a variety of weapons is second nature. If you dont then your going to pay for it at some point. Like when your bowmen come up against a group of skeletons.

 

Its really easy I was there on the Xbox boards when they were first telling everyone how wonderful the various combat animations were and how they linked together to create cinematic combat the likes of which hadnt been seen before. Search the forums you might even find the early posts, it never was that active.

 

Oh unless you have some problem with paragraphs quit the selective quoting its a pain to edit.