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Morgoth

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This is rabid fanboyism. It was a good game unless you insist on making comparisons to the first. Taken on its own and without expectations of it being like the first, it's a good game.

 

It's not the comparisons that make a rabid fanboy, it's the apparent anger with which those comparisons are made.

 

Another bit of rabid fanboyism I don't get is the sense of entitlement people seem to have. "I bought all their PC games and now they've gone console?!? ****ing sellouts!". They make the game, you buy it, after that they don't owe you anything. Particularly bad if the person making the complaint is a pirate.

 

Oh, and Resident Evil 4 is proof a sequel doesn't need to be exactly like what came before. Sand loses.

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Oh, and Resident Evil 4 is proof a sequel doesn't need to be exactly like what came before. Sand loses.

 

I never said it should be "exactly" like the previous game. I said that it should have the same core design which RE4 has.

Murphy's Law of Computer Gaming: The listed minimum specifications written on the box by the publisher are not the minimum specifications of the game set by the developer.

 

@\NightandtheShape/@ - "Because you're a bizzare strange deranged human?"

Walsingham- "Sand - always rushing around, stirring up apathy."

Joseph Bulock - "Another headache, courtesy of Sand"

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It (IW) was a good game, though! I blame the rabid fanboys.

Rubbish. Firstly, it took everything that made Deus Ex great and either shat all over it or dumbed it down into oblivion. For example, the horrible unified ammunition system, the lack of any consequences for anything you did (You can massacre *every single* NPC in the game without consequence), the tiny cramped level design (Compare the multiple paths, secrets and such of Liberty Island in Deus Ex to Seattle in IW) and so much more that went wrong with that game. It was sequel in name only and an inferior game to the first in every respect.

 

This is rabid fanboyism. It was a good game unless you insist on making comparisons to the first.

 

Yeah, it's not like it's a sequel...

 

OH SNAP.

 

What was your argument again?

 

Taken on its own and without expectations of it being like the first, it's a good game.

 

Yes, a game that actually manages to do everything worse in areas the first game arguably pioneered and innovated in is certainly not "good". But even so, it has crappy game mechanics, terrible AI (even compared to the first game), has a world that is more dead than a headless chicken, the ridiculous unified ammunition, the actual "FPS" part of the game is terrible and on the list goes.

 

The only thing Aergeri did was compare it to Deus Ex. All what he says amounts to it not being as good as Deus Ex, but that doesn't mean it's bad.

 

Yeah it does. Because what it changed made the game worse. If you have a good game and you completely remove or actually make those aspects worse in the sequel, what are you left with? It's not a good game, no matter how much you protest.

 

Oh, and Resident Evil 4 is proof a sequel doesn't need to be exactly like what came before. Sand loses.

 

Although this isn't directed at me, I would point out that I thought Resident Evil 4 improved on nearly every aspect of the original games. It still maintained the same gameplay style, herbs are still there, it has a goofy B-horror storyline, boss monsters that require pattern recognition to beat, hordes of enemies on screen, a solid standard arsenal of weapons, limited inventory and on it goes. How you can compare a game that did everything right while keeping true to the predecessors, to one that basically completely butchered what made the original game great is truly beyond me. Resident Evil 4 is not just a great game by itself (whereas, Dues Ex: Invisible War is not) but it's also definitely a brilliant sequel, update and deserves to be considered a part of the Resident Evil games (whereas again, Deus Ex: Invisible War does not).

 

If Resident Evil 4 had done away with all the guns except a pistol, removed zombies from the game entirely, dumbed the difficulty down heavily, had no boss fights, the removal of inventory completely (hence resource management aspects) and basically all the things that made Resident Evil games before it great: It would have been absolute crap. As it turned out, they gave a smoother and more updated way of controlling your character, while still retaining the exact same feeling of being alone against the hordes of freaks that the first games had. They didn't change core aspects of the gameplay. Inventory is still there. You can only carry certain weapons, meaning you have to make tough choices as to what you need to specialise in (in fact, I think RE4 even improved on this aspect by increasing the variety of weapons, while providing you the ability to upgrade older ones, meaning you can choose between keeping an older weapon and upgrading or going for the newer and fancier model).

 

You don't need to do exactly what came before, but you shouldn't break what doesn't need to be fixed. I love all the Resident Evil games, but I'll admit any day that the controls were off-putting and often very frustrating for new players. This is why they were changed. This was a good decision. In Deus Ex: IWs case, making the levels tiny destroying any sense of exploration, dumbing down the plot to the point you can massacre everyone in the game without consequence (really, this is just verisimilitude breaking and stupid) and completely gutting the RPG system of the first game are stupid changes and make the game considerably worse. As it is, you're left without the interesting RPG/FPS hybrid of Deus Ex, you're left with a terribly half-assed FPS that actually doesn't even play very well as an FPS game to begin with. That is why it's a poor game. If I want to play a half-assed FPS, well actually, I don't want to play a half-assed FPS, which is my entire problem with the game.

 

Please never compare a game that is genuinely great and a fantastic update to an aging franchise to a piece of crap again.

Edited by Aegeri

Boss: You're fired.

Me: Ummm will you let me have my job if I dance for you?

Boss: No, I don't think so-

Me: JUST LET ME DANCE

*Dances*

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By your reasoning any game that is not as good as Deus Ex is a bad game. You said it yourself "If you have a good game and you completely remove or actually make those aspects worse in the sequel, what are you left with?" Deus Ex was not "a good game." It was a fantastic game. You take away what makes it fantastic, that doesn't leave "crap." That's black and white. What about games that never had these features in the first place, as I mentioned much earlier? Oh yeah, they must be crap too. Simply saying that since it's a sequel means this is a valid means of judgement is asinine. You're just being upset that it's a game that it's not instead of because of the game that it is.

 

You're still only saying it's not as good as the first game. That doesn't make it crap, that just makes it not as good as the first game.

Edited by Tale
"Show me a man who "plays fair" and I'll show you a very talented cheater."
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By your reasoning any game that is not as good as Deus Ex is a bad game.

 

Do you read what I write? Do you even read what YOU write?

 

I have to wonder when you come out with nonsense like this.

 

You said it yourself "If you have a good game and you completely remove or actually make those aspects worse in the sequel, what are you left with?" Deus Ex was not "a good game." It was a fantastic game. You take away what makes it fantastic, that doesn't leave "crap." That's black and white. What about games that never had these features in the first place, as I mentioned much earlier? Oh yeah, they must be crap too.

 

Rubbish again. I should rebut this, but I'm not sure where to actually begin with that. Perhaps I could point out you've made several logical fallacies in one go, like making a ridiculous strawman of my original argument (Or just not reading what I wrote). Secondly the aspects that make Deus Ex a "good/fantastic" game are not in the sequel, meaning that you're definitely left with something less than good, because what is left is not at all brilliant. I could point out, that your feeble attempts to defend the game have basically devolved to claiming other games are "fantastic" at aspects like being much better in terms of combat (IE: FEAR, which I agree with BTW, I'm playing it right now and really enjoying it), as if this somehow excuses a game for being mediocre at the same thing. Deus Ex, the original, is a terrible shooter (and so is the second). It is the other aspects of the first games design, which elevated it to an 'excellent' game. These are aspects the second game completely lacks, leaving you with a mediocre shooter and nothing that redeems it. Unless you're a homicidal maniac of course.

 

Edit:

 

You're still only saying it's not as good as the first game. That doesn't make it crap, that just makes it not as good as the first game.

 

You can't read can you? The first game devoid of the features it had like the large detailed levels with numerous secrets and areas to poke around in, the RPG like inventory management, the RPG stat system, the fact what you did in the game world had consequences (IE: it appropriately reacted to you being a murderous homicidal sociopath), weaponry with multiple kinds of ammunition and encouragement of resource management etc etc. Depth. Take the depth away as Deus Ex: IW does and you're left with a terrible shooter, with poor shooting mechanics, awful AI and not much terribly interesting about the game. Really, your whole defence "it's not crap, it's just crap compared to virtually everything else that does everything it tries to better" is laughable.

Edited by Aegeri

Boss: You're fired.

Me: Ummm will you let me have my job if I dance for you?

Boss: No, I don't think so-

Me: JUST LET ME DANCE

*Dances*

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These are aspects the second game completely lacks, leaving you with a mediocre shooter and nothing that redeems it.

 

This is where your argument has failed up to this point. You've only ever pointed out what Invisible War lacks that Deus Ex had. You've never once addressed it as a shooter of its own. Until this sentence. Constantly reiterating the lack of large levels and lack of meaningful choices is all you've ever done until this sentence.

 

Invisible War does indeed have much better shooting mechanics than Deus Ex did, in my opinion. Tons better. No more of that waiting for your aim to steady between pistol shots or else you miss at 5 feet nonsense. Some very interesting biomods, too. Even while focusing on stealth I found there to be some good action to come out of it that I never found in Deus Ex sr.

Edited by Tale
"Show me a man who "plays fair" and I'll show you a very talented cheater."
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These are aspects the second game completely lacks, leaving you with a mediocre shooter and nothing that redeems it.

 

This is where your argument has failed up to this point. You've only ever pointed out what Invisible War lacks that Deus Ex had.

 

Incorrect. Read my posts much?

 

Yes, a game that actually manages to do everything worse in areas the first game arguably pioneered and innovated in is certainly not "good". But even so, it has crappy game mechanics, terrible AI (even compared to the first game), has a world that is more dead than a headless chicken, the ridiculous unified ammunition, the actual "FPS" part of the game is terrible and on the list goes.

 

Please feel free to read my posts in future, then respond.

 

You've never once addressed it as a shooter of its own. Until this sentence.

 

Evidence suggests otherwise.

 

Please read, think and then post responses.

 

Thank you.

 

Edit:

 

And just to prove the point, from the same post that, again you demonstrate you didn't even take the time to actually read properly, is this:

 

As it is, you're left without the interesting RPG/FPS hybrid of Deus Ex, you're left with a terribly half-assed FPS that actually doesn't even play very well as an FPS game to begin with. That is why it's a poor game.

 

Really, I believe I made this point three times before you noticed it. I'll bear this in mind that frequent repetition will be required.

Edited by Aegeri

Boss: You're fired.

Me: Ummm will you let me have my job if I dance for you?

Boss: No, I don't think so-

Me: JUST LET ME DANCE

*Dances*

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Rubbish. Firstly, it took everything that made Deus Ex great and either shat all over it or dumbed it down into oblivion.
Only comparison here.
For example, the horrible unified ammunition system,
I've seen Pop make this claim but never seen what's supposedly so horrible about it.
the lack of any consequences for anything you did (You can massacre *every single* NPC in the game without consequence),
This has to be a comparison because it's something many FPS games share.
the tiny cramped level design (Compare the multiple paths, secrets and such of Liberty Island in Deus Ex to Seattle in IW)
Another comparison?

 

and so much more that went wrong with that game. It was sequel in name only and an inferior game to the first in every respect.
Are you Sand's alt?
"Show me a man who "plays fair" and I'll show you a very talented cheater."
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As it is, you're left without the interesting RPG/FPS hybrid of Deus Ex, you're left with a terribly half-assed FPS that actually doesn't even play very well as an FPS game to begin with. That is why it's a poor game.

 

Really, I believe I made this point three times before you noticed it. I'll bear this in mind that frequent repetition will be required.

Nope, you didn't. Simply saying that it lacks non-FPS features of a **** FPS is not saying that it retains those **** FPS features.

"Show me a man who "plays fair" and I'll show you a very talented cheater."
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As it is, you're left without the interesting RPG/FPS hybrid of Deus Ex, you're left with a terribly half-assed FPS that actually doesn't even play very well as an FPS game to begin with. That is why it's a poor game.

 

Really, I believe I made this point three times before you noticed it. I'll bear this in mind that frequent repetition will be required.

Nope, you didn't. Simply saying that it lacks non-FPS features of a **** FPS is not saying that it retains those **** FPS features.

 

Yes I did. That you've demonstrated you do not take the time to read your opponents arguments fully before responding, I see no point in bothering to discuss this with you any further :)

 

Also, yes, Deus Ex: IW is a poor FPS. It has braindead AI, is terribly easy, weapons are unsatisfying, the unified ammunition system removes most point in using multiple weapons except for the weapon that is the path of least resistance (because it's merely going to drain your ammunition for more useful weapons by keeping around inferior ones).

 

But whatever, go on believing that IW is a good game, you're not convincing anyone :)

 

Also:

 

These are aspects the second game completely lacks, leaving you with a mediocre shooter and nothing that redeems it.

 

This argument is fundamentally the same as this argument:

 

As it is, you're left without the interesting RPG/FPS hybrid of Deus Ex, you're left with a terribly half-assed FPS that actually doesn't even play very well as an FPS game to begin with. That is why it's a poor game.

 

You just didn't bother reading my post the first time.

Edited by Aegeri

Boss: You're fired.

Me: Ummm will you let me have my job if I dance for you?

Boss: No, I don't think so-

Me: JUST LET ME DANCE

*Dances*

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What an utterly ridiculous argument. Tale is only arguing for the sake of arguing.

 

Even if you don't compare Deus Ex: Invisible War to any other game EVER, it's still a subpar attempt at a game. But what would be the point of that? You use games you've played before as a reference, that's how it works. Trying to claim you shouldn't just exposes your nonexistant grip of reality.

 

So let's break down how IW failed.

 

Unified ammo? How many other games, before or after, have utilized that brilliant idea? None? Gee, I wonder why! Can it be because that means you'll only need to use your MOST POWERFUL WEAPON ALL THE TIME because all the ammo you'll ever find in the game fits it?! Moronic design flaw.

 

How about level design? Most games are going for the free-form, no loading times route nowadays. What did IW do? "Let's split up every town, every building, every tiny area.. into even tinier areas with huge loading times in-between!! That is what the player wants!!". Yeah, great game alright.

 

Or how about the idea to put a story in this FPS that doesn't even begin to take into account who you've shot, who you've spared or anything you've done during the entire game? "You're friends with me? But I just shot your buddy one meter in front of you!" "No matter. Here, take these healthpacks, you'll need them!".

 

Deus Ex: Invisible War is a failure on its own, and an even bigger failure if you compare it to its excellent predecessor.

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Can it be because that means you'll only need to use your MOST POWERFUL WEAPON ALL THE TIME because all the ammo you'll ever find in the game fits it?!

 

That's not true. The most powerful weapons consume much more ammo than less powerful weapons, so it would be stupid to waste a huge chunk if it's not needed. I don't think unified ammo is the problem really, it's the fact that reloading is unnecessary.

 

The fact that the different factions didn't seem to care whether you crossed them was horrible, and the cramped levels (with the same set of textures used to skin almost everything) were too damn small, but as for the constant loading of different areas instead of streaming areas without any loading, if you truly believe they designed it that way then you're a moron.

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Can it be because that means you'll only need to use your MOST POWERFUL WEAPON ALL THE TIME because all the ammo you'll ever find in the game fits it?!

 

That's not true. The most powerful weapons consume much more ammo than less powerful weapons, so it would be stupid to waste a huge chunk if it's not needed. I don't think unified ammo is the problem really, it's the fact that reloading is unnecessary.

I don't remember there being a reloading mechanic at all, though it just might be that my mind is trying to purge the suck of IW from itself. The way unified ammo was balanced was the problem, I've been over it in a different thread.

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The fact that the different factions didn't seem to care whether you crossed them was horrible, and the cramped levels (with the same set of textures used to skin almost everything) were too damn small, but as for the constant loading of different areas instead of streaming areas without any loading, if you truly believe they designed it that way then you're a moron.

Good thing I don't believe that then.

 

But another thing that would be helpful would be for you to find where I wrote that expected/demanded/wanted streaming areas, or did you try to put your words in my mouth like a moron? My point was that they designed a PC game within the 64 MB limitations of the original Xbox, thus having to chop up every level into tiny pieces. I don't think any player in the world prefers tiny, chopped up levels with huge loading times between them before big levels. It was a huge step backwards in game design, no matter which game you compare it to. Developers are actually trying to decrease loading times (even eradicate them completely) these days. Even a moron would know that.

Swedes, go to: Spel2, for the latest game reviews in swedish!

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The fact that the different factions didn't seem to care whether you crossed them was horrible, and the cramped levels (with the same set of textures used to skin almost everything) were too damn small, but as for the constant loading of different areas instead of streaming areas without any loading, if you truly believe they designed it that way then you're a moron.

Good thing I don't believe that then.

 

But another thing that would be helpful would be for you to find where I wrote that expected/demanded/wanted streaming areas, or did you try to put your words in my mouth like a moron? My point was that they designed a PC game within the 64 MB limitations of the original Xbox, thus having to chop up every level into tiny pieces. I don't think any player in the world prefers tiny, chopped up levels with huge loading times between them before big levels. It was a huge step backwards in game design, no matter which game you compare it to. Developers are actually trying to decrease loading times (even eradicate them completely) these days. Even a moron would know that.

 

"Most games are going for the free-form, no loading times route nowadays." You didn't say that you expected/demanded/wanted streaming areas in DX:IW in particularly, and I never claimed you did, but you obviously brought it up for a reason. The problem wasn't just the limitation of the xbox, it was the limitations of the crap job they did with the engine, regardless of the system it was running on. Poor implementation of technology is a completely different kettle of fish to an intentional design decision.

 

And it's cute that you were so hurt by my insult that you felt the need to use the same insult on me twice.

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And it's cute that you were so hurt by my insult that you felt the need to use the same insult on me twice.

It's cute that you managed to notice that, but not read my first post thoroughly enough. No need to cry though.

Swedes, go to: Spel2, for the latest game reviews in swedish!

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And it's cute that you were so hurt by my insult that you felt the need to use the same insult on me twice.

It's cute that you managed to notice that, but not read my first post thoroughly enough. No need to cry though.

 

Cry about what? You made a comment implying the developers chose to design the game in this way because "that is what the player wants", and I corrected you, pointing out that there never was a choice, as they only had one option.

 

So if I didn't read your thoroughly enough, what is it that I'm not seeing? Because it seems to me to be a petty way to dismiss people when you have nothing left to argue.

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Because it seems to me to be a petty way to dismiss people when you have nothing left to argue.

Is that the same as putting your words in others mouths and then imply they're morons? No? How about you stop crying about it now and move on to more important issues?

Swedes, go to: Spel2, for the latest game reviews in swedish!

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@Hell Kitty.

 

Ionstorm should have make a decision quickly after they recognized that the engine was ****ed up. They either should have reverted back to the "default" UnrealEngine 2, skipping the dynamic lightning thing (as that had any gameplay value anyway) and make it PC only. Or decide to use the crippled engine and make it Xbox only, optimizing the hell out of it until release. Instead, they chose to release the game on both platforms - both completely broken.

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Is that the same as putting your words in others mouths and then imply they're morons? No? How about you stop crying about it now and move on to more important issues?

 

Important issues? This is a computer game forum, there are no important issues. If you can point out how I put words in your mouth, please do so. I simply said that if you truly believed that nonsense you wrote then you were a moron. The only one crying here is you, apparently unable to deal with the fact you were insulted on a message board. But don't worry, since it's unlikely you'll you respond with anything other than another childish whine, I'll let you get the last word in, but please, try to pick something better than accusing people of crying, that's so terribly lame.

 

Ionstorm should have make a decision quickly after they recognized that the engine was ****ed up.

 

Actually, they do seem to recognise the problems with the engine. There was an interview recently with Jordan Thomas at Rock Paper Shotgun discussing problems with the technology, and I recall Harvey Smith regretting not writing their own engine. Scrapping it and starting over is a huge waste of time and resources, and unless you're a Blizzard or similar company it's probably not an option.

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..that's so terribly lame.

Boo-hoo. And the crying continues.

 

You know something else that's lame? Coming into a discussion with uninformed opinions and resorting to "implied" name-calling in your very first post, despite not having a clue about what you're responding to. As usual, I might add, you oh so valuable member of the community. But feel free to keep dragging threads down to your level. I guess that's where you feel most at home.

 

The funny thing is that your last post reveals you still haven't understood the original post. Wow. I wonder how explicit one has to be to make oneself understood by everyone, even by the morons? Rhetorical question.

Swedes, go to: Spel2, for the latest game reviews in swedish!

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Seriously, the name calling is really bad. I mean arguing over stuff is great, we all do it here, but Hell Kitty turned to personal insults, and that's not acceptable. This is a great forum because people can usually argue in a respectful fashion, so lets try and keep that in mind.

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