What else did Kreia mention about Revan?

[DustyDuke II]

If Kreia was correct, and Revan was not corrupted by the Dark Side but made a concious decission to become a Sith Lord to combat the threat he saw

That there I think is really interesting. I don't believe I ever managed to unlock that portion of dialog. I wonder whether Kreia said anything else about Revan's career as a Sith Lord, particularly on why he accepted Malak as apprentice. Could he not forsee that he would betray him? After all his plans were almost foiled by him. Had the Jedi not been so nice as to leave him alive Malak's actions would have destroeyed everything.

Is there any reason for Revan teaching or befrending Malak or is this simply one of the very rare cases that Revan miscalculated the outcome of his actions?

Edited September 3, 2007 by DustyDuke II

[refuse]

If Kreia was correct, and Revan was not corrupted by the Dark Side but made a concious decission to become a Sith Lord to combat the threat he saw

That there I think is really interesting. I don't believe I ever managed to unlock that portion of dialog. I wonder whether Kreia said anything else about Revan's career as a Sith Lord, particularly on why he accepted Malak as apprentice. Could he not forsee that he would betray him? After all his plans were almost foiled by him. Had the Jedi not been so nice as to leave him alive Malak's actions would have destroeyed everything.

Is there any reason for Revan teaching or befrending Malak or is this simply one of the very rare cases that Revan miscalculated the outcome of his actions?

 

You need to play the first game to get more on this, but basically Revan turned to the dark side not to become a sith lord per se, but to better understand the nature of the force in order to go wage war in the unknown regions against the real sith. malak was revan's friend from way back, and they both fought in the Mandalorian Wars and saught out the Star Forge together, who unfortunately was short-sighted and ambitious, hence the wanton destruction of his reign, as opposed to the strategic war that revan waged. It wasn't that Revan decided to take malak onboard after 'falling', they had been a duo for a long. That is the dark side corruption I guess in action; revan becoming a murdering bastard, waging a war on the republic he was (in a long, roundabout kinda way) trying to save, and Malak turning on his buddy.

 

I wouldn't really read much into it though, because 99% of the time a Jedi falls to the dark side it's usually a Jedi knight who showed clear signs of frustration or ambition or jelousy or some other 'fault', and their Jedi Masters always seem to be shocked or completely blind/stupid and are terrible judges of character, right?

Edited September 3, 2007 by refuse

[DeathScepter]

Maybe he foresaw Malak betraying him and Bastila trying to capture him.

 

 

1) Why did he kept the Star Maps intacted? When it would be easier to cover their tracks and destroy them for later regardless of their regeneration capablties. Also Why was there a holographic interface system with the Kahsyysk Star Map?

 

 

2) Why was Bastila so nice to Revan and seemly more involved emotionial than a normal "force-bonded" Jedi? Maybe Revan and her were friends at one point. OR she is really A Revan Fangirl. Or a very compassionate person. Then why the Jedi Council sent her unless there was an connection between them already. Because why risk their battle meditation expert against The Dark Lord of the Sith unless there was already a connection between them.

 

 

3) When he was sacfircing(msp) himself? Did he fall? or was his sacfirce(msp) cause of the said fall? or was it wishful thinking of a old woman believing the greater good in Revan that he wasn't truly evil?

[DustyDuke II]

Wow DeathScepter's questions are very interesting! I just hope that while (or if) these points ar discussed the debate isn't stopped by moderators saying we are to deep in KOtoR I content which doesn't belong in these forums.

 

 

I wouldn't really read much into it though, because 99% of the time a Jedi falls to the dark side it's usually a Jedi knight who showed clear signs of frustration or ambition or jelousy or some other 'fault', and their Jedi Masters always seem to be shocked or completely blind/stupid and are terrible judges of character, right?

Thanks for the post, refuse, I especially like that last part a lot

[Darth Mortis]

Maybe he foresaw Malak betraying him and Bastila trying to capture him.

 

 

1) Why did he kept the Star Maps intacted? When it would be easier to cover their tracks and destroy them for later regardless of their regeneration capablties. Also Why was there a holographic interface system with the Kahsyysk Star Map?

 

Thats a good question. I can guess that Revan left the Dantooine Starmap alone since it was close to the academy there, and messing around with it would have told them he was up to something. It's also possible that that Starmap, and maybe the one on the Wookie homeworld, had defensive systems and trying to destroy them would have triggered them. Revan seemed the type not to pick fights he didn't need, or throw away things that he might have further use for.....he could have figured that the Starmaps had more information in them than just the map.

 

Could Revan have had some idea that he might need the starmaps again? Consider that the person who next used the maps to find the Star forge was...Revan. Could he have left them intact because he had some idea he'd have to find the Starforge again?

 

2) Why was Bastila so nice to Revan and seemly more involved emotionial than a normal "force-bonded" Jedi? Maybe Revan and her were friends at one point. OR she is really A Revan Fangirl. Or a very compassionate person. Then why the Jedi Council sent her unless there was an connection between them already. Because why risk their battle meditation expert against The Dark Lord of the Sith unless there was already a connection between them.

 

We have no idea how strong a normal force bond would be, or how it would affect the people involved-We've only seen two people with force bonds-Revan and the Exile-neither one could be considered average Jedi in terms of bonds, or in the situations where they were formed.

 

The Jedi sent Bastila against Revan because they understood that they would need her battle meditation to be able to break through the defences on his ship. They say as much in K1.

 

3) When he was sacfircing(msp) himself? Did he fall? or was his sacfirce(msp) cause of the said fall? or was it wishful thinking of a old woman believing the greater good in Revan that he wasn't truly evil?

 

I'm always wary of what Kreia says, she was at the end of the day quite capable of making mistakes and she admits to considering both the Exile and Revan has her greatest students. Anything she says is going to be her point of view and might not be the absolute truth, although people have a tendency to consider it so (on occasion myself included). It should also be remembered that she was a manipulater, so she could be spinning things so that they are correct, but give the wrong impression.

[refuse]

Maybe he foresaw Malak betraying him and Bastila trying to capture him.

 

I doubt that; there is no point in any of the games that it is suggested that Revan could also see the future. He should however have anticipated a betrayal by his Sith Lord apprentice, but perhaps he had assumed that Malak was too weak or with Revan in trying to get ready for the fight with the 'true' Sith. In any case, the games suggest that Malak's ascent was more opportunism than any well-thought plan, the evidence being how he ruled the Sith (wanton destruction of the Republic's infrastructure and no consideration for the future). Goto elaborates on this a bit, as does the end of the 1st game, where Malak admits that he would always be the follower and Revan the leader (or something to that effect).

 

1) Why did he kept the Star Maps intacted? When it would be easier to cover their tracks and destroy them for later regardless of their regeneration capablties. Also Why was there a holographic interface system with the Kahsyysk Star Map?

 

I would imagine that Revan and Malak couldn't destroy the Star Maps. After all, they are said to be over 40.000 years old and despite the damage they would regenerate, and were constantly doing so. To totally destroy the Star Maps could possibly a) attract unwanted attention (considering how much power would be required) and b) be a waste of time and resources, when all they wanted was to get to the Star Forger asap, before the Jedi Council figured they were Sith Lords and send Jedi Death Squads after them. Don't forget that one of the Star Maps was right under the Jedi Council's nose (on Dantooine) and they couldn't figure it out. The holographic interface on Kaskyyyk was installed as a defensive mechanism, but also adapted to the surroundings and needs of the Star Map, something that probably existed in all the other Star Maps, but [perhaps for game-play purposes] didn't make it or was still in the process of being reconstructed. It'd be a bit odd going through the same routine at the bottom of the ocean on Manaan.

 

2) Why was Bastila so nice to Revan and seemly more involved emotionial than a normal "force-bonded" Jedi? Maybe Revan and her were friends at one point. OR she is really A Revan Fangirl. Or a very compassionate person. Then why the Jedi Council sent her unless there was an connection between them already. Because why risk their battle meditation expert against The Dark Lord of the Sith unless there was already a connection between them.

 

I don't think there is anything normal about force bonds, to the extent they are in the KoTOR series (more so in TSL); Bastilla was force-bound to Revan after she defeated him and preserved him so he wouldn't die, when Malak took control of the Star Forge and tried to blow them up. The council, during the 1st game, decided to send her with the brainwashed Revan because sending a Jedi Master would (according to them) attract too much attention, as opposed to a "Padawan" (Revan) and a Knight, whom Revan already came to trust (one way or another). Perhaps the Force bonds are more effective when the two are in close proximity of each other, as it becomes more apparent (gameplay-wise) from TSL, the way Kreia and the Exile interact with one another. Furthermore, I think that Bastila's mission could also act as some sort of trial for her to become a Jedi Master and face her ultimate challenges, such as putting her past behind (her mother sidequest) and testing her skills in the field, in the real world, with real people, as opposed to just dueling Sith Lords, whenever they can find them. Don't forget that Bastilla had been involved with the war against Revan and Malak early on, so she herself would probably want to see the whole story ended. I don't think she knew Revan before the war, I was lead to believe that she was younger than him and wouldn't have met him, or been a Jedi when he was fighting in the Mandalorian Wars with Malak.

 

3) When he was sacfircing(msp) himself? Did he fall? or was his sacfirce(msp) cause of the said fall? or was it wishful thinking of a old woman believing the greater good in Revan that he wasn't truly evil?

 

I think that is a very romantic idea that Kreia harbours in TSL, namely that Revan purposely succumbed to the dark side in order to be strong enough to fight the 'real' Sith in the unknown regions, but if you look it from a distance, the fact is that when Revan became a Sith Lord (and tasted the Dark Side), he inevitably became corrupted by it, something he perhaps wasn't 100% aware of, to the point where its corruption skewed his personality and twisted his rationale; after all, at no point in any of the games are we given any information on Revan's life before he became a Sith Lord, or whether 'Revan' was his name before his 'fall'. If Revan was still conscious of the corruption the Dark Side had on him, I can't understand why he would still wage a war on the Republic if he himself was strong enough to go fight the true Sith and his intentions was to preserve it. Why didn't he simply take Malak and his converted Dark Jedi and run off with the Star Forge to the Unknown Regions, rather than totally f'up the Republic, when still in a relative secrecy, rather than wage a full scale intergallactic war? Obvious answer is it wouldn't make a great game. Or would it?

Edited September 3, 2007 by refuse

[DeathScepter]

Maybe Knowing the fate of the Rakatas of Kotor 1, he believed that he will ulimately have to abandon the Star Forge and take the Resources of the Republic inorder to Take on the True Sith Empire.

 

 

Star Forge is a dark side entity and it feeds and produces dark side energy. Also Dark Side Energy does corrupt the living beings so they inturn use that dark side to do dark side act which produces more dark side energy.

 

 

So Ulimately it was more of a liablity than a strenght in the long term if the Star Forge was contanstly being used in a wartime.

 

 

 

Btw I do think the Star Maps would be damaged in such a way it could take another 25,000 years to regenerate. Thermal Denators and Phasma grenedes could do a lot of damage to the Star Maps.

[Darth Mortis]

I doubt that; there is no point in any of the games that it is suggested that Revan could also see the future. He should however have anticipated a betrayal by his Sith Lord apprentice, but perhaps he had assumed that Malak was too weak or with Revan in trying to get ready for the fight with the 'true' Sith.

 

When Malak tells you in K1 who you really are, he does mention during that conversation that Revan knw that Malak was going to turn against him, but that he misjudged the timeing and Malak struck when Revan didn't expect him to. Malak also says that he was the one that allowed the Jedi to board Revan's ship, but as you said I think this was more about him taking abvantage of the situation and not doing anything to stop them rather than this being a thought out plan.

 

The council, during the 1st game, decided to send her with the brainwashed Revan because sending a Jedi Master would (according to them) attract too much attention, as opposed to a "Padawan" (Revan) and a Knight, whom Revan already came to trust (one way or another). Perhaps the Force bonds are more effective when the two are in close proximity of each other, as it becomes more apparent (gameplay-wise) from TSL, the way Kreia and the Exile interact with one another. Furthermore, I think that Bastila's mission could also act as some sort of trial for her to become a Jedi Master and face her ultimate challenges, such as putting her past behind (her mother sidequest) and testing her skills in the field, in the real world, with real people, as opposed to just dueling Sith Lords, whenever they can find them. Don't forget that Bastilla had been involved with the war against Revan and Malak early on, so she herself would probably want to see the whole story ended. I don't think she knew Revan before the war, I was lead to believe that she was younger than him and wouldn't have met him, or been a Jedi when he was fighting in the Mandalorian Wars with Malak.

 

Bastila admits that one of the main reasons she was sent off with Revan was because of the bond between them. I think from the conversation with her (which takes place when you find you are Revan) she was chosen in the hopes that A; She would act as a stablising inflence on Revan, hopefully preventing him from turning Dark and Nasty again. B; An early warning system, so that if Revan did start to remember who he was someone could let the council know in time for them to do something. C: So there was an experianced Jedi around who could, if it came down to it, take Revan down before he started to remember everything-the explination as to not sending a Master along would be more logical in this regard, since it would draw attention, but it might also make brainwashed Revan start to question quite what was going on......

 

During the game Bastila admits to thinking that this whole thing was a test of her to see if she was ready to be a master. She then goes on to admit that she was being somewhat arrogent, and that this was not a test of her-the Jedi council would not have sent her on such an important mission just to test her. While they might, afterwards, have viewed her actions and depending on her actions dealt with it like they were testing her this was not a primary, or even a secondary reason for sending her along.

 

I don't think Bastila's exact age was given in the game, but it is mentioned at least once that the Bastila hadn't finished her training when the mandolarian war started-A Jedi Knight She wasn't at this time, and there is no indication that Revan took or attempted to recruit anyone who wasn't already a Jedi Knight at least. Assuming that the Exiles flashback/vision on Korroban is correct it would seem that Bastila looked around the same age when Revan was looking for Jedi for the war, so I would guess that Bastila was around 18 when the war started, which would place her age at the time of K1 as mid-twenties. Revan was, I think, about ten years older than Bastila. Given Jedi training, and that Bastila was still a Pawadwan at the start of the war it seems unlikely that they would have known each other before they met in K1. There is also a more logical reason to assume they had never met-Bastila had to be told by the council who he was and she was quite shocked when realising that she'd been walking around with Revan and training with him. If she had met him before wouldn't she have known exactly who he was?

 

at no point in any of the games are we given any information on Revan's life before he became a Sith Lord, or whether 'Revan' was his name before his 'fall'

.

 

In all the flash backs, and from talking to the Jedi masters on Dantooine in K1 it is very clear that Revan and Malak were always known as Revan and Malak-making them unusual in becoming Sith and yet keeping their own names. The same thing happens in K2 with the vision on Korraban, when Malak's recruitment speech calls Revan Revan. Since this was based on the Exiles memory of being recuited for the war (In fact one of the speach options is 'I remember this, this is when you recruited me for the war') it is further evidence that Revan was always known by that name as both Jedi and Sith.

 

All that we know of Revan pre-Sith Lord can be summed up as;

 

Hungry for knowledge (Kreia and the Jedi masters)

 

Unknown homeworld, often assumed to be somewhere in the unknown regions or outer rim (Kreia)

 

Many masters (Kreia and the Jedi masters)

 

Known to have freed the slaves on at least one world-specifcally Taris. (Juhani)

 

Tactical genius (or at least very good) who was quite able to make hard decissions and sacrifice lives when needed. (More or less everyone, but also alluded to from one of the Exiles flashbacks on Korraban)

 

 

I can't understand why he would still wage a war on the Republic if he himself was strong enough to go fight the true Sith and his intentions was to preserve it. Why didn't he simply take Malak and his converted Dark Jedi and run off with the Star Forge to the Unknown Regions, rather than totally f'up the Republic, when still in a relative secrecy, rather than wage a full scale intergallactic war?

 

I Think the implication was that whatever the threat Revan saw it was more than he could fight with what forces he had at his immediate disposal. (Conjecture, since we don't as of yet know exactly what the threat happened to be or is) Its also quite likely that Revan foresaw (more from experience than from the force) that a goverment that had just faught one war wasn't going to be convinced to get ready for another anytime soon.

 

As to why he didn't use the starforge, well there are several indications or outright statments that Revan never intended to use the Starforge that much. While none of these statments came directly from Revan they are revealing-or interesting.

 

A; Malak managed to get the Starforce working at at least twice the capasity it was working at when Revan was in charge. Since I'm of the opinion that anything Malak could do Revan could do better I can only assume that this means Revan wasn't relying on the SF-or intending to rely on it-to provide everything he would need. There is also the implication that Revan considered the SF as being dangerous somehow. Which is an interetsting decision for a Lord of the Sith to make, considering this means he was refusing power-a very unusual thing for any Sith to do.

 

B; Revan was leaving the infrastructure of the Republic intact as much as possible. G0-T0 mentions this, and he could only conclude that where ever Revan was getting his ships from (we of course know it was the Starforge) he either didn't expect to keep it or wasn't relying on it in the long run.

[DeathScepter]

Btw If you study the Rakata history of Kotor 1 and Set Revan to DS in Kotor 2, it does explain everything you need to know why Revan never intended to completely rely on the Star Forge.

[Tale]

Oh, what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to retcon.

 

Obsidian's done a terrific job of it, though. Makes it quite interesting. I imagine it's so well done because of how shallow Bioware presented it (leaving it easy to retcon over) and how terrific some of the writing staff is at Obsidian. But some of it gets so complicated and contorted that it makes heads spin.

Edited September 4, 2007 by Tale

[refuse]

With regards to the names Revan and Malak, it could the case that since their 'fall' to the Dark Side, it could be customary that they were referred to by the Sith names they adopted, much like how Anakin Skywalker was referred to as Vader after he fell and treated his former self ('Anakin') as a dead person, prior to his redemption, obviously. I might be wrong, by I thought that Sith Lords changed their names, apart from adding the 'Darth' prefix after some point.

 

Revan might have anticipated to be betrayed by Malak, not because of any precognition, but merely because he would expect a Sith apprentice to betray his master, which would entail that he was conscious that Malak had truly surrendered to the Dark Side.

 

I realise that Revan's game-plan was to leave an intact infrastructure, but what I'm suggesting is that he could have maintained his secrecy and not get involved with a war against the republic at all; he seemed to be recruiting jedi for a while before attacking the republic. Why go through such a risky war (as it proved), when he could have used the element of surprise against the true sith, is my question. Or why not simply point out the threat of the 'true' sith in the unknown regions to the Jedi Council. After all, 'Sith Lords are [their] specialty' (Obi-Wan?). Who knows, maybe they would rally behind them, rather than put them on trial for disobeying them. I'm probably missing a lot of sub-plots and stuff...

[DeathScepter]

Only the Darth Bane's Sith Order, it is require that the sith practiontor adopt to their new sith names.

 

 

 

To Tale, Shallowness is not a bad thing comes to storytelling in video games. But to make the story clear as mud will make my brain explode many times over.

Edited September 4, 2007 by DeathScepter

[Tale]

Palpatine never fully adopted his Sith name. He was still publicly Palpatine even as Emperor. We didn't even know his Sith name until Phantom Menace.

[DeathScepter]

Well I do think there were political reasons why he still call him Palptine while he was the Emperor.

 

 

After the Clone Wars, Calling one self a Sith Lord publicly was a bad move for guys like him. Also no one knows the actual relationship Darth Vader and Anakin Skywalker outside of ESB post revelation scene Luke Skywalker and ROTJ Endor Leia. So Most likely that everyone assumes that Darth Vader was Darth Vader's real name.

[Lazdude]

I can't understand why he would still wage a war on the Republic if he himself was strong enough to go fight the true Sith and his intentions was to preserve it. Why didn't he simply take Malak and his converted Dark Jedi and run off with the Star Forge to the Unknown Regions, rather than totally f'up the Republic, when still in a relative secrecy, rather than wage a full scale intergallactic war?

 

I Think the implication was that whatever the threat Revan saw it was more than he could fight with what forces he had at his immediate disposal. (Conjecture, since we don't as of yet know exactly what the threat happened to be or is) Its also quite likely that Revan foresaw (more from experience than from the force) that a goverment that had just faught one war wasn't going to be convinced to get ready for another anytime soon.

 

Revan was a smart man, he realised that the Jedi Council were corrupt and the Republic were pacifists, and so he was forced to fight to gain the full support he needed in the upcoming war. He also knew the history of the Rakata and how prolonged use of the Star Force led to their destruction. To battle the True Sith meant a war of distance and attrition, he needed not just a fleet but an empire backing him. Basically his plan was to usurp the government and take direct control over the Republic, with the least number of casualties, and this probably would have worked had it not been for Malak betraying him. He was the one who devloped dellusions of granduer in hopes of conquering the galaxy. Just blame Malak, thats my motto.

[DeathScepter]

You are right about Revan in your post. But I have saw the Jedi Council more as pacifist and Republic as corrupted.

[Dark Wastl]

I wouldn't call the Republic pacifist, they went in to fight the Mandalorians after all.

 

The way I see it, Revan's tactics against the Mandalorians were already questioned by some, but he needed full support in a war against the Sith. No one will ask any question if the Supreme Ruler decides that for tactical reasons losing an entire system is the right way to go. The Senate would hardly accept such a behaviour. Nor would all the military leaders accept it either.

 

Revan thought that he needed full control over everything. It's easier to do the things you want to do, if there is no one beside you who has a say on the matter as well.

[DeathScepter]

I do think it was necassary for Revan to be that Ruthless because people like the Mandalorians will not back down easily.

[DAWUSS]

Revan was a smart man, he realised that the Jedi Council were corrupt and the Republic were pacifists, and so he was forced to fight to gain the full support he needed in the upcoming war. He also knew the history of the Rakata and how prolonged use of the Star Force led to their destruction. To battle the True Sith meant a war of distance and attrition, he needed not just a fleet but an empire backing him. Basically his plan was to usurp the government and take direct control over the Republic, with the least number of casualties, and this probably would have worked had it not been for Malak betraying him. He was the one who devloped dellusions of granduer in hopes of conquering the galaxy. Just blame Malak, thats my motto.

 

 

I wouldn't call the Republic pacifist, they went in to fight the Mandalorians after all.

 

The way I see it, Revan's tactics against the Mandalorians were already questioned by some, but he needed full support in a war against the Sith. No one will ask any question if the Supreme Ruler decides that for tactical reasons losing an entire system is the right way to go. The Senate would hardly accept such a behaviour. Nor would all the military leaders accept it either.

 

Revan thought that he needed full control over everything. It's easier to do the things you want to do, if there is no one beside you who has a say on the matter as well.

 

I think these two statements say it best. Revan takes over the Republic with minimal casualties, adding them to his side. With the Republic Navy as his resources for warm bodies, and the Star Forge for everything else, he would use the grand army to strike at the True Sith, who wouldn't stand much of a chance against Revan's near-limitless Republic troops, crewmen, and pilots, and the limitless Star Forge ships, starfighters, and droids.

 

The biggest problem with the Republic would be dissent, which would do nothing but slow him down (there are enough political efficiency jokes out there), which is why he needed to depower the Republic leadership (Supreme Chancellor and Senate), so his will would become action.

 

How ruthless he would be in his command, I would have no idea...

[DeathScepter]

Due to the nature of the Star Forge, Revan would need to preserve the shipyards of the Republic.

 

 

 

Revan does that it would mess him up like the Rakata Empire if he used it like they did over the many years that they were incontrol of the Star Forge.