Dungeons and Dragons 4th Edition is on the way...

[Humodour]

That's easy. Don't drop a high number of stat boosting items for your players and balance encounters accordingly. Doh...

 

I was actually thinking more as a player. I really enjoy my character being the source of cool stuff, and would gladly have seen even fewer magic items. The fact that the game is balanced to have characters given magic weapons of lesser bonuses at certain levels is alright, but I'd rather just not have magic weapons that boost stats.

 

Agreed.

[Deraldin]

Since I know not everyone has registered and you guys that have a jerks...

 

One of our goals in 4th Edition was to reduce characters

[Magister Lajciak]

Thanks for the links, I hadn't read either before (only had the latter described to me)

 

Just out of interest, which of the classification systems do you prefer?

 

Both have their merits. If I have to chose I do prefer the SNG system though. If for nothing else that it's a theoretical model constructed by gamers as an attempt to analyze the games we play, rather than market researchers doing the same.

 

I also prefer the SNG system, because I can actually place myself somewhere in that system, whereas I cannot do so in the other system.

 

I'm like Spider on this one. The WotC version, amongst other things, seems a bit slipshod to me. That wouldn't matter, except that they aren't some small indie company. They're an established voice, perhaps one of the largest, in the gaming industry.

 

I am not sure it is exactly slipshod, but it certainly does not describe my preferences in RPGs, whereas the other version does do so.

[Magister Lajciak]

As to the information from the new article, I guess it's my turn to be less critical than most. Yes, I too would have liked to see an even smaller dependance on magic items and having all magic items do something more interesting than provide a +X bonus. Nevertheless, they have moved in this direction, so 4E is an improvement on 3.Xe in this regard.

 

 

Furthermore, I must admit that a +1 longsword is an iconic D&D magic item.

[Sand]

I don't count a wand +5 as a step forward in the right direction.

[Dark_Raven]

Wands are weapons now? They don't cast spells like Fireball or do they do both now?

[Magister Lajciak]

Wands are weapons now? They don't cast spells like Fireball or do they do both now?

 

There were some hints that 'implements' such as wands can now have 'plusses', but we don't know how exactly it will work. I suspect they will provide the given bonus to attacks with the spells they can cast*.

 

*A fireball and other attack spells now need to 'hit' so the Wizard must attack with them. At least that's how I understood it.

[Sand]

4e's "to hit" roll is just reworked saving throws, ML. No more and no less. A fireball, in 3.5e, allows a Reflex save. A fireball in 4e needs to hit the Reflex Armor Class. So instead of the defender making the d20 roll, it is the caster. Same basic mechanic, just a different roller. Real innovative... NOT!

[Joseph Bulock]

4e's "to hit" roll is just reworked saving throws, ML. No more and no less. A fireball, in 3.5e, allows a Reflex save. A fireball in 4e needs to hit the Reflex Armor Class. So instead of the defender making the d20 roll, it is the caster. Same basic mechanic, just a different roller. Real innovative... NOT!

 

So small changes that aim to refocus previous ideas are too small to be innovative, but the big ideas (changes to story settings, skill systems) are no good because they move too far away from third edition...

 

Another headache, courtesy of Sand

[Sand]

Another headache, courtesy of Sand

 

I strive to maintain a certain continuity.

[Magister Lajciak]

4e's "to hit" roll is just reworked saving throws, ML. No more and no less. A fireball, in 3.5e, allows a Reflex save. A fireball in 4e needs to hit the Reflex Armor Class. So instead of the defender making the d20 roll, it is the caster.

 

Yes, I agree. So, as I understand it, a +5 wand of fireballs would effectively have an equivalent effect in 3.5e if it enabled the wizard to cast fireballs with +5 to save DC.

[Dark_Raven]

4e's "to hit" roll is just reworked saving throws, ML. No more and no less. A fireball, in 3.5e, allows a Reflex save. A fireball in 4e needs to hit the Reflex Armor Class. So instead of the defender making the d20 roll, it is the caster. Same basic mechanic, just a different roller. Real innovative... NOT!

 

So small changes that aim to refocus previous ideas are too small to be innovative, but the big ideas (changes to story settings, skill systems) are no good because they move too far away from third edition...

 

Another headache, courtesy of Sand

I'm not a fan of 3.x, I prefer AD&D myself. Best system ever.

[Tigranes]

It's like you two are related, isn't it?

 

I personally think its a good and sensible move to make a particular type of item only be conducive to particular type of enchantments in a way that is partly intuitive. (e.g. boots often give movement/speed bonuses.) It's been the trend for some time and it also makes equipping out your character more fun, IMO. I also like what they've done with the Rings. I agree that in terms of magical dependence it's a lateral move if anything, and a downscale would be appreciated, but ah well - that's really another question.

 

I wonder what happens to Cloaks, though? Surely they don't fall under Armour.

[Magister Lajciak]

I wonder what happens to Cloaks, though? Surely they don't fall under Armour.

 

I think cloaks will fall under the neck slot.

[Joseph Bulock]

I'm not a fan of 3.x, I prefer AD&D myself. Best system ever.

 

You're old school. We get it.

 

[Sand]

Yes, I agree. So, as I understand it, a +5 wand of fireballs would effectively have an equivalent effect in 3.5e if it enabled the wizard to cast fireballs with +5 to save DC.

 

Yep, that's right.

[newc0253]

Is it my imagination, or is 4e just a way to streamline D&D for the WoW generation?

 

I understand the dilemma, given that PnP D&D has its work cut out trying to appeal to the kiddies in this age of the new-fangled computers.

 

I also get how lots of additional arcane and specialised rules can make an RPG charming and full of character, but also irrational and - in practical terms - much less playable.

 

For instance, as someone who never invested in anything past 1e, I nonetheless appreciated how 3e completely revamped the rules on multiclassing, opening up much more potential and flexibility (at the same time, i despised how 3e simultaenously made a mockery of all that with the introduction of endless, silly, hyper- specialised prestige classes for the l33t crowd).

 

So, generally speaking, i salute the drive towards greater simplicity and flexibility in the D&D rules. If 4e delivered on that, that would be great: making combat simpler, reducing the impact of alignment, etc, all seem worthy goals.

 

But most of what i've seen of 4e seems less about simplicity or rationality, and more about appealing to a generation of kidz off their ritalin (c.f. solo monsters! less gnomes! more tieflings!) and simply change for changes sake (c.f. revising the structure of the planes for no apparent reason). Of course, it was probably always too much to hope that the folk who brought you prestige classes would see the light of reason, but it's a shame that 4e seems to be at best a missed opportunity and at worst a sign of further degeneration in the game.

[ramza]

huh? newc0253? I thought you had died or something, mate! I miss the arguments you had with other forum members...

Threads used to last pages and pages... ah, good old times...

[newc0253]

huh? newc0253? I thought you had died or something, mate!

 

i was serving time for armed robbery & they don't have internet access in prison.

[Pop]

I'm not a fan of 3.x, I prefer AD&D myself. Best system ever.

 

You're old school. We get it.

 

don't laugh.

 

This is serious business.

[Humodour]

But most of what i've seen of 4e seems less about simplicity or rationality, and more about appealing to a generation of kidz off their ritalin (c.f. solo monsters! less gnomes! more tieflings!) and simply change for changes sake (c.f. revising the structure of the planes for no apparent reason).

 

I highly doubt you even know what Ritalin does. I can assure you that having ADHD does not make one appreciate WoW more.

 

Quit ****ing using ADHD as your scapegoat and a stereotype for an overstimulated generation.

[newc0253]

I highly doubt you even know what Ritalin does.

Ritalin is a prescription stimulant commonly used to treat Attention-deficit hyperactivity disorder, or ADHD. It contains methylphenidate, a dopamine reuptake inhibitor, which increases the level of the dopamine neurotransmitter in the brain by partially blocking the transporters that remove it from the synapses.

 

I can assure you that having ADHD does not make one appreciate WoW more.

 

I'm sorry to hear that, dude. Really I am.

 

*yawn*

 

Quit ****ing using ADHD as your scapegoat and a stereotype for an overstimulated generation.

 

Yes, because i do that all the ... ooh, look at that! Shiny!

Edited January 28, 2008 by newc0253

[Sand]

I think a lot of people over use ADHD and ADD as the blame for dumbing down games, may it be table top or PC/Console. I think it is because the designers think their target audience is just too stupid to figure out mre complex rules. Did anyone here see that 4e promo video that WotC made? Man, that ticked me off to no end that WotC thinks that their player base is actually that idiotic.

[J.E. Sawyer]

I only play the original H

[Musopticon?]

H

Edited January 28, 2008 by Musopticon?