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Fantasy Trappings


Imbrium

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I don't know if it is by preference or by just being the most popular thing out there, but so many gamers seem to equate the word Fantasy with "Tolkien-style elves/dwarves/magic"

 

In the words of Orson Scott Card "Fantasy has trees and elves, Sci-Fi has rivets." Of course, in the interview he is saying this, he is ranting about how geeks/fantasy fans as a whole have this idea of elves being fantasy, and treating anything else as a form of Science fiction, not "real" fantasy.

 

Science Fiction is a genre of Fantasy. Dwarves and Elves fit under a fantastical Medieval Europe kind of fantasy. To better make my point, Most romantic comedy movies ARE fantasy. Those kinds of situations do not realistically happen.

 

My old DM wouldn't let me play a psychic in his games because he "didn't like science fiction in his fantasy". Then when 3.0 came out, I wasn't allowed to play a monk "because they Eastern stuff don't belong in fantasy". In my travels as a gamer, I've met many more D&D DMs and players that also hated psychics and monks, and didn't allow them in their games.

 

I want a game that truly breaks down the barriers of Fantasy. A game that incorporates all realms of Fantasy in it. Arcanum was close, very close. I want Blade Runner meets Arthurian legend and Greek gods thrown in too. True fantasy as I've been calling it when ranting to my friends lately. None of them really care though, and I get this impression from other gamers I meet and talk to.

 

I'm not saying its wrong to like just "Medieval Europe" or "Science Fiction" genres, but I wish there would be a great game developer that would break down the barriers, and create a dynamic and fluid game that incorporated the best of both worlds, because I feel there is a lot of potential there.

 

Until then, I'm gonna keep playing Arcanum every 6 months to remind me that it can work, and hold on to my dream that one day, there will be another.

 

edit: Bah, late night ranting doesn't lend itself well to perfect spelling.

Edited by Imbrium
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Science Fiction is a genre of Fantasy. Dwarves and Elves fit under a fantastical Medieval Europe kind of fantasy. To better make my point, Most romantic comedy movies ARE fantasy. Those kinds of situations do not realistically happen.

 

I think this highlights the real issue. If by fantasy you mean the fantastical then yes anything from the imagination is fantasy. However, I think it's valid to narrow it down.

 

I guess when I think of fiction it is '...imagine a world governed by X instead of Y'

 

For science fiction X replaces Y by virtue of some scientific advance like cheap fusion power or true AI. Thus some new X becomes pre-eminent. It is science fiction because typically we can bring to the transformation the first stirring of how the science will work. Mechanics, ethics, etc etc.

 

For romantic fiction (at present) X is the power of love over Y, the power of necessity. The young couple overcome boundaries of class, gum disease, etc etc because of some irrational force. This requires the changing of the world at large. Trains must leave at the correct times, restaurants must not leave you with dysentery, and a thousand human frailties must suspend their incidence.

 

In like vein, fantasy is not fantasy because of elves and goblins. It is fantasy because X is the human imagination, unfettered by science or practicality, fudging the rules of reality, Y. People can shape the universe by willpower/wearing a dress alone. New species and cultures spring up at a whim, for their mere curiosity value. If I'm writing scifi and i want the sun to disappear I have to comme up with some scientific explanation of how it might. If I'm writing fantasy I can just say "The sun's name is Steve and he gets bored and wanders off"

"It wasn't lies. It was just... bull****"."

             -Elwood Blues

 

tarna's dead; processing... complete. Disappointed by Universe. RIP Hades/Sand/etc. Here's hoping your next alt has a harp.

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Ive had it up to here with Fantasy already! No more!! *shakes fist*

 

 

 

Also, you are confusing the genre "fantasy", with the word "fantasy". The genre is clearly defined as being about Elves&Dragons (with some variations).

DISCLAIMER: Do not take what I write seriously unless it is clearly and in no uncertain terms, declared by me to be meant in a serious and non-humoristic manner. If there is no clear indication, asume the post is written in jest. This notification is meant very seriously and its purpouse is to avoid misunderstandings and the consequences thereof. Furthermore; I can not be held accountable for anything I write on these forums since the idea of taking serious responsability for my unserious actions, is an oxymoron in itself.

 

Important: as the following sentence contains many naughty words I warn you not to read it under any circumstances; botty, knickers, wee, erogenous zone, psychiatrist, clitoris, stockings, bosom, poetry reading, dentist, fellatio and the department of agriculture.

 

"I suppose outright stupidity and complete lack of taste could also be considered points of view. "

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Walsingham hit the nail in the head; often the the simplest(and imho most valid) explanation given to what differentiates fantasy from scifi and vice versa is that if something is not scientifically explainable or not at least plausible then the work of fiction in question is scifi. The borders can bend quite a bit however and it is not uncommon to have magic in a setting that is often labeled as science fiction. For example, people often incorrectly label Star Wars as science fiction, yet it should called space opera - grand romantic themes in a futuristic setting where science is inconsequental. Swords and magic power and spacecraft that makes noise are not really explainable, right?

 

Similarly, Arcanum is steampunk fantasy - you can't really explain steam machines and huge clockwork constructs, but they are plausible. Steampunk has always been more like a "what if"-genre, you could imagine some crafty archwrighty fellow inserting legs to a waterpowered sewing machine and setting it loose on hapless citizens. In reality it would probably take a step and then fall in to a pile of trash metal, but the plausability is there. However, the presence of magic once again makes Arcanum fantasy.

 

By the way, if you'd like to see similar games to Arcanum, try Rise of Legends, it's a steampunk rts with incaish aliens using beamweapons. You'll love it. :rolleyes:

Edited by Musopticon?
kirottu said:
I was raised by polar bears. I had to fight against blood thirsty wolves and rabid penguins to get my food. Those who were too weak to survive were sent to Sweden.

 

It has made me the man I am today. A man who craves furry hentai.

So let us go and embrace the rustling smells of unseen worlds

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By the way, if you'd like to see similar games to Arcanum, try Rise of Legends, it's a steampunk rts with incaish aliens using beamweapons. You'll love it. :rolleyes:

 

Rise of Legends got old pretty fast due to how its mission structure was handled, basically being a couple storyline missions, then a whole whack of random skirmish maps that weren't very interesting. But the setting was awesome and I'd like to see some different genres of games set in that world.

The area between the balls and the butt is a hotbed of terrorist activity.

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I heard they might be making an rpg in the setting.

 

Big Huge Games is hiring devs.

kirottu said:
I was raised by polar bears. I had to fight against blood thirsty wolves and rabid penguins to get my food. Those who were too weak to survive were sent to Sweden.

 

It has made me the man I am today. A man who craves furry hentai.

So let us go and embrace the rustling smells of unseen worlds

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I define fantasy as to anything that centers itself around the supernatural and magic. Star Wars is fantasy becuase it centers itself around the Force, a form of magic and mysticism. The same reason why I count VtM: Bloodlines a fantasy game because it focuses on the supernatural elements of vampirism.

Murphy's Law of Computer Gaming: The listed minimum specifications written on the box by the publisher are not the minimum specifications of the game set by the developer.

 

@\NightandtheShape/@ - "Because you're a bizzare strange deranged human?"

Walsingham- "Sand - always rushing around, stirring up apathy."

Joseph Bulock - "Another headache, courtesy of Sand"

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Sand wins. ;)

 

 

No, he doesnt. :*

DISCLAIMER: Do not take what I write seriously unless it is clearly and in no uncertain terms, declared by me to be meant in a serious and non-humoristic manner. If there is no clear indication, asume the post is written in jest. This notification is meant very seriously and its purpouse is to avoid misunderstandings and the consequences thereof. Furthermore; I can not be held accountable for anything I write on these forums since the idea of taking serious responsability for my unserious actions, is an oxymoron in itself.

 

Important: as the following sentence contains many naughty words I warn you not to read it under any circumstances; botty, knickers, wee, erogenous zone, psychiatrist, clitoris, stockings, bosom, poetry reading, dentist, fellatio and the department of agriculture.

 

"I suppose outright stupidity and complete lack of taste could also be considered points of view. "

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Anyone here familiar with the works of Neil Gaiman? If so, thats really close to the kinds of games I would like to play in. Neil Gaiman paints beautiful imaginative worlds where gods and mortals and supernatural all blend together.

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Science Fiction is a genre of Fantasy. Dwarves and Elves fit under a fantastical Medieval Europe kind of fantasy. To better make my point, Most romantic comedy movies ARE fantasy. Those kinds of situations do not realistically happen.

 

I think this highlights the real issue. If by fantasy you mean the fantastical then yes anything from the imagination is fantasy. However, I think it's valid to narrow it down.

 

I guess when I think of fiction it is '...imagine a world governed by X instead of Y'

 

For science fiction X replaces Y by virtue of some scientific advance like cheap fusion power or true AI. Thus some new X becomes pre-eminent. It is science fiction because typically we can bring to the transformation the first stirring of how the science will work. Mechanics, ethics, etc etc.

 

For romantic fiction (at present) X is the power of love over Y, the power of necessity. The young couple overcome boundaries of class, gum disease, etc etc because of some irrational force. This requires the changing of the world at large. Trains must leave at the correct times, restaurants must not leave you with dysentery, and a thousand human frailties must suspend their incidence.

 

In like vein, fantasy is not fantasy because of elves and goblins. It is fantasy because X is the human imagination, unfettered by science or practicality, fudging the rules of reality, Y. People can shape the universe by willpower/wearing a dress alone. New species and cultures spring up at a whim, for their mere curiosity value. If I'm writing scifi and i want the sun to disappear I have to comme up with some scientific explanation of how it might. If I'm writing fantasy I can just say "The sun's name is Steve and he gets bored and wanders off"

 

I'm aware elves do not make fantasy, but it seems like "fantasy" games these days do not sell unless they are elves and dwarves. Look at the success of WoW, EQ, and Vanguard over Eve online. Oblivion and Dark Messiah over um....well not many non-Medieval Europe fantasy games to compare it to. How many popular Sci-Fi genres games sell well that are not Star Wars or Star Trek based? Not many at all. Why must a game be one or the other? Why can't there be a game that incorporates the best of both worlds. Or takes the RPG genre to a whole new setting. Like a Neil Gaiman one.

Edited by Imbrium
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Japanese RPGs sell just fine.

 

Final Fantasy 6, 7, and 8 are pretty good blends of "traditional" fantasy and sci-fi elements, although the combat can be a little bland at times. They are a little closer to what I want, but too many JRPGs are 1) pretty 2) full of pointless grinding and/or pointless "item transmutation" that doesn't really add much to gameplay or story. Many of them are also terribly translated, and they almost never allow for Japanese voiceover options, forcing me listen to terrible english dubs.

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You know, there's not really a remedy up and coming into your situation. We could throw names all day and none of them would really fit what you are seeking. There's plenty of titles in all genres of fiction that accord free imagination, but right now the best way to enjoy contemporary fantasy and less strict accordance to conservative varieties of a genre of fiction is to find a suitable gaming group and work it up.

 

Or play Planescape Torment.

 

Oh damn, here goes a-namedropping.

kirottu said:
I was raised by polar bears. I had to fight against blood thirsty wolves and rabid penguins to get my food. Those who were too weak to survive were sent to Sweden.

 

It has made me the man I am today. A man who craves furry hentai.

So let us go and embrace the rustling smells of unseen worlds

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Anyone here familiar with the works of Neil Gaiman? If so, thats really close to the kinds of games I would like to play in. Neil Gaiman paints beautiful imaginative worlds where gods and mortals and supernatural all blend together.

oye... you should see some of our comic threads in the WOT section (we really need to rename that)

 

but, the problem if fantasy is that it's a nebulous title. Ultimatly anything with somthing that couldn't, hasn't, or won't plausably happen could be titled under fantasy. Other sections of fiction like Crime, Mystery(well most of them) war books and the like would fall under the title of fiction while others would fall under the title of fantasy.

 

However the traditional fantasy setting has elves, dwarves, magic, swords, arrows, and the odd multiplaner activity. Meanwhile the traditional Scifi finds that you have aliens, spaceships (generally warships), Massive interstellar wars, FTL capability, and usually has robots created from machinery with computerized brains (rather than powered by magical forces and controled by one mystic).

 

To say that star wars is Fantasy is interesting in that Star Wars jumpstarted the scifi we know today as scifi. You rarly hear about how people are entertained by starship troopers to the point where it has a dozen and a half spinoffs.

Before star wars, most of the Scifi was based around grim doominess.

Victor of the 5 year fan fic competition!

 

Kevin Butler will awesome your face off.

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Star Wars made space and aliens popular. Not sci-fi.

kirottu said:
I was raised by polar bears. I had to fight against blood thirsty wolves and rabid penguins to get my food. Those who were too weak to survive were sent to Sweden.

 

It has made me the man I am today. A man who craves furry hentai.

So let us go and embrace the rustling smells of unseen worlds

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How many popular Sci-Fi genres games sell well that are not Star Wars or Star Trek based?

 

Halo, Half-life, Starcraft (although admittedly that one is a bit old now), Quake, Gears of War, Metroid etc.

 

SciFi is fairly popular when it comes to gaming. The only genre dominated by Fantasy is RPGs.

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Reading the other comments it occurred to me that a further refinement may be wise. Fantasy, being ungoverned by rules descends firmly upon the whim of the author. To give it form the author's preconscious desires/prejudices come through. Thus some fantasy reflects a world in which heroism and truth justice blah blah blah make you win. They give you miraculous strength or supernatural aid or what have you. Similarly, the supernatural races like Tolkein's dwarves and elves arrive in this way.

 

The popularity of these races and these themes derive from a slightly childish desire to believe such things are real. I don't mean to be critical. I like the Gaunt's Ghosts novels becaus it is nice to journey to a universe in which war may be hell but occurs for good reasons. The desire some people have to believe there are wholly good artsy damned irritating creatures must come from a similar source.

 

This is really what I mean. Fantasy is about indulgence without hinderance. In short Star Wars may be fantasy with lasers. But only if we concede fantasy is Mills and Boon with swords.

"It wasn't lies. It was just... bull****"."

             -Elwood Blues

 

tarna's dead; processing... complete. Disappointed by Universe. RIP Hades/Sand/etc. Here's hoping your next alt has a harp.

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Reading the other comments it occurred to me that a further refinement may be wise. Fantasy, being ungoverned by rules descends firmly upon the whim of the author. To give it form the author's preconscious desires/prejudices come through. Thus some fantasy reflects a world in which heroism and truth justice blah blah blah make you win. They give you miraculous strength or supernatural aid or what have you. Similarly, the supernatural races like Tolkein's dwarves and elves arrive in this way.

 

The popularity of these races and these themes derive from a slightly childish desire to believe such things are real. I don't mean to be critical. I like the Gaunt's Ghosts novels becaus it is nice to journey to a universe in which war may be hell but occurs for good reasons. The desire some people have to believe there are wholly good artsy damned irritating creatures must come from a similar source.

 

This is really what I mean. Fantasy is about indulgence without hinderance. In short Star Wars may be fantasy with lasers. But only if we concede fantasy is Mills and Boon with swords.

you would LOVE the black company by glenn cook.

Victor of the 5 year fan fic competition!

 

Kevin Butler will awesome your face off.

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Actually, Calax I reckon I would, judging by what I've just read about him. I shall ohop off into town and see if i can find some.

"It wasn't lies. It was just... bull****"."

             -Elwood Blues

 

tarna's dead; processing... complete. Disappointed by Universe. RIP Hades/Sand/etc. Here's hoping your next alt has a harp.

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I like the Longest Journey and Darkfall games because they mix fantasy genres, much as my own stories do. Even when you do arrive in Arcadia, the more magical realm, you don't see dwarves and elves, but you do see some interesting creatures that don't exist in the more scientific Stark. Great games, both of them, and I look forward to more in the future.

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Actually, Calax I reckon I would, judging by what I've just read about him. I shall ohop off into town and see if i can find some.

The Black Company is easily the best of the series. But the others are ok (by the sixth and seventh books it's a little screwy, and a tad more preachy about good v evil rather than evil v even more evil)

Victor of the 5 year fan fic competition!

 

Kevin Butler will awesome your face off.

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I don't know if it is by preference or by just being the most popular thing out there, but so many gamers seem to equate the word Fantasy with "Tolkien-style elves/dwarves/magic"

 

In the words of Orson Scott Card "Fantasy has trees and elves, Sci-Fi has rivets." Of course, in the interview he is saying this, he is ranting about how geeks/fantasy fans as a whole have this idea of elves being fantasy, and treating anything else as a form of Science fiction, not "real" fantasy.

 

Science Fiction is a genre of Fantasy. Dwarves and Elves fit under a fantastical Medieval Europe kind of fantasy. To better make my point, Most romantic comedy movies ARE fantasy. Those kinds of situations do not realistically happen.

 

My old DM wouldn't let me play a psychic in his games because he "didn't like science fiction in his fantasy". Then when 3.0 came out, I wasn't allowed to play a monk "because they Eastern stuff don't belong in fantasy". In my travels as a gamer, I've met many more D&D DMs and players that also hated psychics and monks, and didn't allow them in their games.

 

I want a game that truly breaks down the barriers of Fantasy. A game that incorporates all realms of Fantasy in it. Arcanum was close, very close. I want Blade Runner meets Arthurian legend and Greek gods thrown in too. True fantasy as I've been calling it when ranting to my friends lately. None of them really care though, and I get this impression from other gamers I meet and talk to.

 

I'm not saying its wrong to like just "Medieval Europe" or "Science Fiction" genres, but I wish there would be a great game developer that would break down the barriers, and create a dynamic and fluid game that incorporated the best of both worlds, because I feel there is a lot of potential there.

 

Until then, I'm gonna keep playing Arcanum every 6 months to remind me that it can work, and hold on to my dream that one day, there will be another.

 

edit: Bah, late night ranting doesn't lend itself well to perfect spelling.

 

I saw your post and I thought of this; http://www.silverfall-game.com/en/news.php.

 

I found it a few weeks ago and plan on picking it up when it's released.

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