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SilentScope001

A List of "Good DS" and "Evil LS" People

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Well, there was an argument on here started by one guy claiming that the Dark Side is not evil. This led to people aruging that Star Wars is a fiction, and is supposed to be black and white. One person, The Architect, believes that Star Wars is moving in a new direction, thanks to KOTOR and its doctrine of "greyness". In fact, The Architect hopes that there would be a "Good Dark Sider" and a "Evil Light Sider" in KOTOR3, just to shake things up.

 

Here, we list all Good DS and Evil LS people that exist.

 

I believe there are more Good DS people than there are Evil LS People, because "the road to Hell is paved with good intentions", as people fall to the Dark Side in order to do good deeds. I doubt the road to Heaven is paved with bad intentions.

 

Also note that Good and Evil are...relative, and is up to each person to indivudally define and deterimine. Meanwhile, the Light Side and Dark Side is quite easy to figure out...and is somewhat (but not always) clear what side of the Force this person embraces...It is up to you to make a point if someone is "good" or "evil", Light Side or Dark Side, and that point CAN be challenged.

 

Since I am familar with only the KOTOR series, here are a list of Good DS and Evil LS that I seen from there...my List may be incorrect, and I hope others may add in some new stuff.

 

Good DS:

-Darth Revan. He fell to the Dark Side and basked in its power so that he can create his own Empire...to protect the galaxy from a greater threat.

 

-Kreia. This Dark Sider, regardless of what you believe of her goal to blow up the Force, wanted to train The Exile so that she can grow strong enough to destroy Darth Nihlius and Darth Sion and therby save the galaxy. She also help to form a new Jedi Order that would help defend the Republic.

 

Evil LS:

-The Jedi Council. This has been debated over at the LA Forums, with them "reprogramming" Darth Revan's memory, prehaps even memwiping him. They were alleged to have turned Darth Revan into a slave, or at least a holocron from which Bastila would gain knowledge from. I believe this to be evil, and because of this, I call this a Evil LS act (since the Jedi Council were being LS at the time).

 

-Atris. She hates the Sith and wants to destroy all of them. So, she decides on turning the Jedi Enclave on Kataar and the Jedi Exile as nothing more than glorified bait for the Sith...with some success. That act of betrayal can easily be seen as evil, yet is she LS at the time? I think so, as Kreia states that Atris was already destroyed, but what she done was strip away the illusion. The "illusion", I believe, was Atris 'Light Side' alignment, which she held and believed until Kreia corrupted her to be Dark Sided. Since she basically caused the Jedi Enclave to die and released word of the Jedi Exile's existance before the begining of the game, I can assume she was LS at the time and therefore, her actions was Evil LS.

 

Anyone else want to put in Good DS and Evil LS characters? Please do so.

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I don't really see a "good darkside" or "evil lightside".

 

Revan's intention are somewhat similar to those of Anakin, both want to save something/somebody. While their original intentions were indeed quite noble, the results were as evil as it gets.

 

The fall to the darkside is usually a slow corruption, of course nobody turns evil right on the spot.

 

 

I don't think that Kreia had the intention of saving the galaxy by killing Sion and Nihilus, it was just a side effect of it. She wasn't really interested in rebuilding the Jedi Order either, as she wasn't really happy whenever you took on another crew-member.

 

As for Atris, see Anakin. She was already way on her way to the darkside when TSL happened. Just because you think of yourself as a lightsider, doesn't mean that you are still one.

 

The Jedi-Council one is tricky. Is it really evil to change one person's mind, if death is the other choice?

They did kind of use Revan, which is borderline behaviour, but that's a small price for saving his life. Desperate times lead to desperate actions, but those do not make them evil ls in any way. There are many examples in the movies, where a Jedi uses not so lightside ways to achieve his goals, without coming close to falling to the darkside or being affected by it.

 

 

I don't really see good ds or evil ls anywhere. Just because a lightsider isn't saving every little gizka in the galaxy or a darksider isn't killing everything in sight, doesn't mean that they are different from before. The only time you ever saw light- or darksiders like that, were if you played KOTOR extremely onesided at every single opportunity.

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I don't really see a "good darkside" or "evil lightside".

 

Revan's intention are somewhat similar to those of Anakin, both want to save something/somebody. While their original intentions were indeed quite noble, the results were as evil as it gets.

 

The fall to the darkside is usually a slow corruption, of course nobody turns evil right on the spot.

 

 

I don't think that Kreia had the intention of saving the galaxy by killing Sion and Nihilus, it was just a side effect of it. She wasn't really interested in rebuilding the Jedi Order either, as she wasn't really happy whenever you took on another crew-member.

 

As for Atris, see Anakin. She was already way on her way to the darkside when TSL happened. Just because you think of yourself as a lightsider, doesn't mean that you are still one.

 

The Jedi-Council one is tricky. Is it really evil to change one person's mind, if death is the other choice?

They did kind of use Revan, which is borderline behaviour, but that's a small price for saving his life. Desperate times lead to desperate actions, but those do not make them evil ls in any way. There are many examples in the movies, where a Jedi uses not so lightside ways to achieve his goals, without coming close to falling to the darkside or being affected by it.

 

 

I don't really see good ds or evil ls anywhere. Just because a lightsider isn't saving every little gizka in the galaxy or a darksider isn't killing everything in sight, doesn't mean that they are different from before. The only time you ever saw light- or darksiders like that, were if you played KOTOR extremely onesided at every single opportunity.

 

Aye, I'm going to have to agree with you on this one mate.

 

While some people may THINK that they are falling in order to serve the greater good, ultimately their choises prove to have been foolish and rash.

 

So while people may have INTENDED good when they fell, in reality they simply were wrong and end up being consumed by the DS.

 

As to Atris, I believe she fell a long time before the end of KOTOR 2. She just kept up a "good show" and told herself that she was doing the right thing. She believed she was right and still stood with the light, but in truth she had already fallen. She just didnt know it yet.


"The dimmest light can shatter the darkest night, and the light I carry is in no way dim."

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I'm going to disagree with you guys and agree with the op. I'd say the Council is evil light side not only because of the revan thing but also because they are just plain manipulative and secretive about everything. Not to mention they condemn the exile even though he's the only one to come back after the war. They are very judgmental and narrow minded.

 

As for revan we kind of can't really say because we don't really know exactly what he's doing in unknown space or w/e but as Architect and myself believe he's gone to fight the true sith to save the universe by using dark sided techniques.

 

So yes, there are evil light side and good dark side in my opinion. I mean if you're doing something evil to do something good, the ends justify the means.

 

And Atris was raising the handmaidens for a purpose which I'm guessing was a good one not for world destruction.


There was a time when I questioned the ability for the schizoid to ever experience genuine happiness, at the very least for a prolonged segment of time. I am no closer to finding the answer, however, it has become apparent that contentment is certainly a realizable goal. I find these results to be adequate, if not pleasing. Unfortunately, connection is another subject entirely. When one has sufficiently examined the mind and their emotional constructs, connection can be easily imitated. More data must be gleaned and further collated before a sufficient judgment can be reached.

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Revan- If we go by the use of the dark to do good then Revan is grey. However the end doesn't justify the means. Simply: whatever your justifications are they are just excuses, if you do evil then you are evil. So Revan doing all sh/he did to save the republic, committing slaughters and such, was not good and noble in his/er intent. Or was because the end was for the greater good? That depends on what this greater good is. To impose your own will on the universe is a sign of arrogance.

 

Kriea- Training the Exile for the end of "destroying the force".... It depends on why she wanted to do that. Was it because her students fell, so to prevent future deaths caused by the force she decided to eliminate the force as a path to power? If so then that is a good act. If she was training the Exile to aid Revan in the unknown regions, then that also is good. She was also using the Exile to kill the other Sith lords so they would not destroy the galaxy with their unchecked power. So Kriea is inherently good.

 

Yuthura Ban- She wanted the power of the darkside so she could free the slaves of Sley... that Hutt planet that I can't spell. :D Her path to power involved killing her compassion so she could do what was necessary to free them. She would do that by being ruthless, so that means evil. Her intentions were also for the greater good, her means was evilness.

 

The Jedi Council- reprogramming Revan for their end was in their eyes as a hole not evil, it was for the greater good, which would be the death of the Sith, and their continued position of power. "They are alleged to have turned Darth Revan into a slave, or at least a holocron from which Bastila would gain knowledge from. I believe this to be evil, and because of this, I call this a Evil LS act (since the Jedi Council were being LS at the time)."--SilentScope001 To rip someones consciousness from their body and replace it with one that is loyal doesn't sound very Jedish. It sounds like something a sith lord would do to gain information or to impose loyalty upon a slave.

Apathy is death! If the council had acted earlier more lives would have been saved, so you could say that all that followed was caused by their inaction. When they had a chance to see what they had caused (the Exile) they did nothing. They Exiled truth, and why? Because it would undermine their power base. Destroying them would benefit the galaxy beyond measure.

 

Malak- therefore in his rampage is good. Taris was largly populated by criminals and the weak, weakness is a drain on society's resources therefore weakness is evil. Bastila was trying to stop his efforts to bring about change, another reason why his cleansing of Taris with fire from above was good. His failed attempt to kill Revan was good, because Revan was evil. :)

 

To kill one innocent is to kill all mankind, or whatever the Koran says. You can't have Good Darksiders or Evil Lightsiders, because actions over-rule justifications. That is why you have net darkside shifts. :o Even if you just told off someone for trying to jam a light-saber into something.

Edited by Purgatorio

S.A.S.I.S.P.G.M.D.G.S.M.B.

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To kill one innocent is to kill all mankind, or whatever the Koran says. You can't have Good Darksiders or Evil Lightsiders, because actions over-rule justifications.

 

If what you say is true that actions over-rule justifaction, then, yes, it's true, most likely. Since I view justifactions sometimes is just as important as the action itself, there is the remote possiblity of these "grey" beings existing (No reason really to thinking that justifcations are important...since you can lie to yourself about anything, see "Atris", but it's just me). LS and DS are quite easy to determine, just use Force Sight, or look at their Force Powers. Wheteter what they done was good or evil...that is up to interpertion. Most LSers are Good, most DSers are evil, but there are expections, due to the moral ambiguity exhibitied in the KOTOR series.

 

...I wonder, however, is Dark Side and Light Side really not about Good or Evil, but about Chaos versus Law. The Light Side is selfless allows for the impartial judge (The Force) to rule, so it can be seen as Law. Meanwhile, the Dark Side is selfish, wanting to rule the galaxy and rebelling against the impartial judge, so it can be seen as Chaos. If so, this can allow for Good DS and Evil LS, just like in D&D Alignment.

---

I do actually think that the Jedi Council was right to not attack the Mandalorians, judging from the fact that the Mandalorians were used by the True Sith to bait the Jedi. But that is for yet another time, and I see I am in the minority...

Edited by SilentScope001

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To kill one innocent is to kill all mankind, or whatever the Koran says. You can't have Good Darksiders or Evil Lightsiders, because actions over-rule justifications.

 

If what you say is true that actions over-rule justifaction, then, yes, it's true, most likely. Since I view justifactions sometimes is just as important as the action itself, there is the remote possiblity of these "grey" beings existing (No reason really to thinking that justifcations are important...since you can lie to yourself about anything, see "Atris", but it's just me). LS and DS are quite easy to determine, just use Force Sight, or look at their Force Powers. Wheteter what they done was good or evil...that is up to interpertion. Most LSers are Good, most DSers are evil, but there are expections, due to the moral ambiguity exhibitied in the KOTOR series.

 

...I wonder, however, is Dark Side and Light Side really not about Good or Evil, but about Chaos versus Law. The Light Side is selfless allows for the impartial judge (The Force) to rule, so it can be seen as Law. Meanwhile, the Dark Side is selfish, wanting to rule the galaxy and rebelling against the impartial judge, so it can be seen as Chaos. If so, this can allow for Good DS and Evil LS, just like in D&D Alignment.

---

I do actually think that the Jedi Council was right to not attack the Mandalorians, judging from the fact that the Mandalorians were used by the True Sith to bait the Jedi. But that is for yet another time, and I see I am in the minority...

Truth, particularly the underlined. Can't bold the bolded. :))

I don't even agree with the concepts of morality and evil. [Wont go into that here even if it makes me look :crazy: ] So it does get blurred. Lawful Evil and Chaotic Good still doesn't help.

Edited by Purgatorio

S.A.S.I.S.P.G.M.D.G.S.M.B.

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Gonna have to disagree on your statement about Kreia being good. She was not doing it to aid others or to prevent deaths, she says so herself. She hates the force and the fact that it has a will. She wants to kill it out of hate and resentment, not to aid others.

 

And no, the ends do not justify the means. If you have to do bad in order to do good, you are doing bad. Sometimes this means that we have to choose between losing something dear to us, or giving up our morals. We may decide we love whatever that thing or person is more than anything else, and so we choose to do bad in order to save that thing or person. That does not make our decision a good one, except maybe in our own minds.

 

In the end, we realize just what a bad choise has cost us and everyone around us, and then we know whether it was a good choise or not.


"The dimmest light can shatter the darkest night, and the light I carry is in no way dim."

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Well, there was an argument on here started by one guy claiming that the Dark Side is not evil.

The Dark Side is evil by definition.

I wonder, however, is Dark Side and Light Side really not about Good or Evil, but about Chaos versus Law. The Light Side is selfless allows for the impartial judge (The Force) to rule, so it can be seen as Law. Meanwhile, the Dark Side is selfish, wanting to rule the galaxy and rebelling against the impartial judge, so it can be seen as Chaos. If so, this can allow for Good DS and Evil LS, just like in D&D Alignment.

You are correct that the KotOR (and all of SW?) alignment system is rudimentary and arguably poorly thought out.

I believe there are more Good DS people than there are Evil LS People, because "the road to Hell is paved with good intentions", as people fall to the Dark Side in order to do good deeds. I doubt the road to Heaven is paved with bad intentions.

I could see a powerful Good deity using evil-serving people to achieve some ultimate good objective; for example, in On Free Choice of the Will, Augustine argued that Epicurus had ignored the potential benefits of suffering in the world.

 

What you are trying to speculate about is whether the end justifies the means. Which is one of the oldest (if not the oldest) questions in philosophy.

 

Take a monotheistic (omnipotent, omniscient omnipresent, and omnibenevolent) god, for example, and the problem of evil. How can such a god, it is argued, allow suffering (i.e. specifically eternal damnation)?

 

The only satisfactory answer usually lies in semantics: god(s) are beyond the definition of good and evil precisely the same way that a lion isn't evil for killing antelope to feed her pride or a female preying mantis kills her mate after mating with him.

 

Also note that Good and Evil are...relative, and is up to each person to indivudally define and deterimine. Meanwhile, the Light Side and Dark Side is quite easy to figure out...and is somewhat (but not always) clear what side of the Force this person embraces...It is up to you to make a point if someone is "good" or "evil", Light Side or Dark Side, and that point CAN be challenged.

This is an inherent weakness in RPG alignment systems: it would be more realistic if a given alignment restricted the actions of a character, rather than just reflected the latest action ... people rarely (ever?) spontaneously change their alignment without some major turning point in their life.

 

Additionally, the fact that it is possible to descry a character's alignment and that alignments have corporeal manifestations (planes of evil and good and even neutrality) removes all relativity from the alignments; viz. they are no longer able to be described in "relative" terms: Good is good, evil is evil.

Kreia ... hates the force and the fact that it has a will. She wants to kill it out of hate and resentment, not to aid others.

This is a big can of worms. :)


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Gonna have to disagree on your statement about Kreia being good. She was not doing it to aid others or to prevent deaths, she says so herself. She hates the force and the fact that it has a will. She wants to kill it out of hate and resentment, not to aid others.

 

You could argue that her hate and anger towards the force was just, it is no different to a slave wanting to be free. She blamed the force for her failed students so killing the force (that which drives events and actions :mellow: ) is like killing god to give free will to all, not just the Exile. (If the Exile is free from the will of the force)

If it was her intention to kill the force perhaps she hoped the wound in the Exile would feed off her creating some kind of feedback thus killing the force. But I believe that was a test along with everything else. :ermm: You never know with her. I believe that is what would have happened if the Darkside ending was truly dark, but that would have killed off the franchise. :joy: :ermm:

 

Going by what I know of the D&D Alignments. Which isn't much.

Mandalore would be Lawful.

Atton would be Chaotic Neutral or True Neutral... eh he goes both ways. :- OOTS!

Mira would be Lawful.

Bao-Dur- Lawful.

Handmaiden -Lawful.

Hk47 would be like the halfling.

G0T0- Would be Lawful...

I am not certain. They are all loyal to some ideal, even with the alignment shift brought about by the influence system they still in essence hold to what they feel is right. So the Jedi council was wrong when they said the Exile was controlling them.

 

Nihilus- is the only true chaotic (the psychopath) the Sith that lives for slaughter. Maybe Hannhar as well.

Edited by Purgatorio

S.A.S.I.S.P.G.M.D.G.S.M.B.

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If it was her intention to kill the force perhaps she hoped the wound in the Exile would feed off her creating some kind of feedback thus killing the force.

I don't think she intended to kill the force, just study the exile and see how "it works" when somebody severs the connection and seems to be able to still walk and breathe. I can't remember the exact quote, but I think she mentions something to the effect that it is indepence from, not death of the force she wants.

 

Going by what I know of the D&D Alignments. Which isn't much.

Mandalore would be Lawful.

Atton would be Chaotic Neutral or True Neutral... eh he goes both ways.  :mellow: OOTS!

Mira would be Lawful.

Bao-Dur- Lawful.

Handmaiden -Lawful.

Hk47 would be like the halfling.

G0T0- Would be Lawful...

Nihilus- is the only true chaotic (the psychopath) the Sith that lives for slaughter. Maybe Hannhar as well.

Interesting exercise... :ermm:

 

Atton could also be neutral evil, he does have a past as a sith assassin.

Bao-dur would be lawful neutral? He was willing to facilitate mass murder on both mandalorians and jedis.

Is Nihilus truly evil or is he just hungry?

Edited by Gorth

“He who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would surely suffice.” - Albert Einstein

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I always assume that Kreia "loved" her students, and blamed the Jedi Council for being blind that her students are great. The Jedi Council thought that the students (including Revan and Exile) were failures when they were really prodigal students. But, you could be right too. Kreia's resistance to the Force may also be spurred by her exile from both the Jedi and Sith Order...She was betrayed the Force, and she, in turn, betray The Force...

 

A List of Alignment (According to me, and using Chaos=DS, Law=LS):

-Kreia: Chaos Good

-Mandalore: Chaos Evil

-Atton: Chaos Netural

-Mira: True Netural

-Bao-Dur: Lawful Good

-Hk47: Chaos Evil

-G0T0: Lawful Evil

 

To me, The Exile was mindcontorlling her party members. While their essence may remain, they do get twisted, and it does not matter what they actually believe, as long as they follow you and do your bidding. For example, Mira is angry that you turned her into a killer, and that she does not like her murdering spirit. Before she joined your party, she rarely kill anyone, but when she's in your party, she murders like she always been doing it. "And I don't like it." And if you have Disciple and is Dark Sided, you can get Disciple to become a Sith, which seems a bit interesting.

 

-Sion and Nihlius: Chaos Evil

===

I don't think she intended to kill the force, just study the exile and see how "it works" when somebody severs the connection and seems to be able to still walk and breathe. I can't remember the exact quote, but I think she mentions something to the effect that it is indepence from, not death of the force she wants.

 

"In you, I see the potential to see The Force die. To turn away from its will. And that is what pleases me."-Kreia, at Traya Academy

 

"You show the galaxy life without the Force. And instead of showing it truth, power, all you showed was how the galaxy may die."-Kreia, when you killed the Jedi Masters

 

This is what you want?

Edited by SilentScope001

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A List of Alignment (According to me, and using Chaos=DS, Law=LS):

-Kreia: Chaos Good

-Mandalore: Chaos Evil

-Atton: Chaos Netural

-Mira: True Netural

-Bao-Dur: Lawful Good

-Hk47: Chaos Evil

-G0T0: Lawful Evil

This is what you want?

 

according to AD&D

Kreia: Could be any Chaotic allignment, based on how you view her actions - I see her as a misguided Chaotic Good, which fell to evil from good and then became a kind of mix between the two in the end (without being a true Chaotic Neutral - those guys are just wacky) ..

Mandalore: Clearly a Lawful Evil! he uses the mandalorian law to serve his purpose and what he sees as the ultimate "good" of his clan .. his loyal to his word just like any lawful evil would (unless they can brake the oath within the law).

Hanharr: well he's loyal to his oath as well .. but since he is so insane he's a Chaotic Evil.. there's nothing left but a selfdestroying and misguided furball..

Mira: I would probably rate her as a Neutral Good .. since she's good and lawful, but still circumvents the rules from time to time..

Atton: is hard to place - but Chaotic Neutral is probably right..

Bao-Dur: Lawful Neutral - no doubt in my mind there.. using the shadow generator in an act of vengence is not a lawful good thing to do .. even if it was allowed during war!

HK-47: he's Chaotic Evil - you got that right! ^_^

GOTO: absolutely Lawful Evil.. true as well!

Handmaiden: Lawful Good - but turns Neutral Good if you influence her alot..

Disicple: Lawful Good - he's a boyscout to the core..


Fortune favors the bald.

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Mandalore: Clearly a Lawful Evil! he uses the mandalorian law to serve his purpose and what he sees as the ultimate "good" of his clan .. his loyal to his word just like any lawful evil would (unless they can brake the oath within the law).

 

To me, the entire Mandalorian Race wanted to destroy the Republic...because it's there and it's need to be destroyed.

 

The Mandalorains are barbarains, like Huns who just go and ravage worlds for fun and "honor". They cause chaos everywhere, which is why I see it as Chaotic Evil, going against the "Law" of the Republic.

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There are no "Good DS" or "Evil LS" people. DS is evil, LS is good. In the sense of D&D alignments.

 

However, there can be and are Lawful Evil and Chaotic Good people in the SW universe, although Lawful Good and Chaotic Evil are more traditional by far.

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here's my take on the whole Good Vs. Evil: the jedi Council, definitely evil, i mean, who in their right mind would keep secrets that have had a really bad outcomes as well as deliberately reprogramming one's mind, then turn around and exile one of their own for something that should 've been done in the first place ( Mandolorian Wars), which is actually help the republic instead of sitting in the council chambers acessing the so called threat! the Sith on the other hand, are both good and evil, take Sion for example and Nihilus, both are true evil, one dominates his whole exsistance to spread pain, and the other to consume worlds, like Galactus!

But i can see Kreia as Darkside Do-gooder, trying to help the exile regain what was lost to him or her, as well as confronting the Council about the choices or sacrifices that one makes in order to stay alive! Atris was just flat out plain evil, having hatred for everything except for herself!

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okay people, here we go again on this thing again, like i said before, the council is evil, no doubt about it! keeping secrets is a bad thing, no matter how you look at it, just look at Vrook for example, he truly hates everything just like Atris, but Kavaar and Zez Kai- El, thos two are i think are kinda Neutral, because what they said about the holorecord of the Exile's trial, that it was good that it was found and the galaxy would be better off without secrets, but as far as Atris, and the five Handmaidens are concerned, they are EVIL to the core, Kreia is just misunderstood, she's quite confusing that nobody can figure her out! GO-TO, again misunderstood, Atton, well,he's just a looney! Disciple, he's a dork! with good and bad intentions! Brianna, well both good and evil, she truly hates Atris and with good reason! Mandalore(or Canderous Ordo), very misunderstood, for he hates weakness, but embelishes the Jedi who fought against the Mandalorians in the Wars, HK-47, again misunderstood, he doens't know right from wrong, hell, his whole insides were scrapped and sold! Bastilla is kind of confusing though, Malak, angered by his childhood past because he was never loved ( ha ha ha, just had to put this in there)! T3, no one knows for sure, Carth, this guy is truly messed up, his home world destroyed, wife killed, son kidnapped, wants nothing but revenge! Hanhar, messed up on all scales, hates the whole Life-debt thing, Mira, again confused little hottie, Visas Marr, again confused on right from wrong, and let's see whoelse, Mission Vaio, confused and scared little girl, Juhani, strange and confused Cat chick, Jolee Bindo, doesn't care at all, only to see the truth on light or dark, that's why he's so dang cool, to be able to stay truly neutral, but the as far as the the True Sith are, nobody knows for sure! And that my friends is my take on the 2 KOTOR games,good and evil! make your own conclusion! :)

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