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I'm struggling to see any real benefit from the "real-time conversation" system, aside from "Wow! The options change depending on how long you take to answer!"; it doesn't really add much to gameplay, and it COSTS a lot of development time.

 

You are adding another dimension to the game: a timer for conversations. And another overhead to manage. How many branching plots were there in NwN2? And that's without adding this extra dimension of complexity.


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it doesn't really add much to gameplay

Unless it were actually dynamic and not just a shallow illusion of choices. But yes, resources.

 

It's like the illusion of having multibranching dialogue trees which all lead to the same response. The problem is in the design and implementation of the dialogue, not in the dialogue format itself.


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Well, for one thing, is it in real time? What happens if I don't choose any of the (really bad) dialogue choices? Will he randomly select one or will there be an awkward silent moment just before my mates go Brokeback Mountain on my ass?

 

Also, how do you know what your character will do when you choose one of the dialogue options? I mean, the main character jumped into one of the other NPC's faces when selecting one of the replies. I thought that was a bit overkill, but it didn't seem like he would do that judging from the text. A simple full-hand point (like my officers always did) and a stern order would have sufficed. It doesn't seem that intuitive to what you're going to get when you choose a two-three word sentence.

 

Ok, maybe the game isn't in early stages, but it's not finalized. The point I was trying to convey is that it's still unoptimized code. The framerates weren't that bad considering this fact.

 

Not sure why you're still confused. It's emotional based dialog. You have your general emotion responses, and your character "acts" out the corresponding dialog. Over analyzing perhaps?

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Well, for one thing, is it in real time? What happens if I don't choose any of the (really bad) dialogue choices? Will he randomly select one or will there be an awkward silent moment just before my mates go Brokeback Mountain on my ass?

 

Also, how do you know what your character will do when you choose one of the dialogue options? I mean, the main character jumped into one of the other NPC's faces when selecting one of the replies. I thought that was a bit overkill, but it didn't seem like he would do that judging from the text. A simple full-hand point (like my officers always did) and a stern order would have sufficed. It doesn't seem that intuitive to what you're going to get when you choose a two-three word sentence.

 

Ok, maybe the game isn't in early stages, but it's not finalized. The point I was trying to convey is that it's still unoptimized code. The framerates weren't that bad considering this fact.

 

Not sure why you're still confused. It's emotional based dialog. You have your general emotion responses, and your character "acts" out the corresponding dialog. Over analyzing perhaps?

 

And there you have what many people in this forum is concern about. Instead of role-playing as an rational thinker with high intelligence and wisdom, we're forced to play a character that only answers through his or hers emotions.

 

...i definately hope that it will not resort to that.


"Some men see things as they are and say why?"
"I dream things that never were and say why not?"
- George Bernard Shaw

"Hope in reality is the worst of all evils because it prolongs the torments of man."
- Friedrich Nietzsche

 

"The amount of energy necessary to refute bull**** is an order of magnitude bigger than to produce it."

- Some guy 

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And there you have what many people in this forum is concern about. Instead of role-playing as an rational thinker with high intelligence and wisdom, we're forced to play a character that only answers through his or hers emotions.

 

...i definately hope that it will not resort to that.

 

Oh please ... when "roleplaying" in a video game you pick the response that you want. Whether it's an "angry" (evil most of the time) response, a "nice" response, a "neutral" response, a "greedy" response, or whatever. It's no different before, only this time, instead of reading dialog the entire game, it's broken down into the basics of the response, and the real dialog is acted for you.

 

Of course, I can see how it's horrible. I'd rather my characters stand there waving their arms pointlessly and not interacting with anyone around them or showing any emotion. That's real story-telling.

 

It's no different, just put your pessimistic outlook on the game aside and you'll realize that.

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Well, Bio never went out and siad they're going to make RPGs exclusive, they just want to make the "best story driven games" ever. This just could also mean an Action game with a great story.

 

Ancient Robots eating everything alive every 50000 years? One could almost go as far as claiming the story to be a complete ripoff from Vandread. If the final boss is a lonesome child (or any lonesome entity) who is eating everything living in order to maintain his/hers perverted immortality, then it will certainly not be the best story ever.


"Some men see things as they are and say why?"
"I dream things that never were and say why not?"
- George Bernard Shaw

"Hope in reality is the worst of all evils because it prolongs the torments of man."
- Friedrich Nietzsche

 

"The amount of energy necessary to refute bull**** is an order of magnitude bigger than to produce it."

- Some guy 

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Yeah, but again, Bio always predicts to make the "best possible Story driven games". Whether that's true should be judged by the consumer, of course.

 

True. But i seldom agree with the majority of consumers. By their standards, Oblivion is the best RPG ever made and every RPG after that should be compared to it.

 

Anyhow, i see Mass Effect as a game with many interesting features (lots of exploring, many planets, graphics and facial animations) but with little substance.


"Some men see things as they are and say why?"
"I dream things that never were and say why not?"
- George Bernard Shaw

"Hope in reality is the worst of all evils because it prolongs the torments of man."
- Friedrich Nietzsche

 

"The amount of energy necessary to refute bull**** is an order of magnitude bigger than to produce it."

- Some guy 

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It's no different, just put your pessimistic outlook on the game aside and you'll realize that.

 

Actually, there is a difference. In a more traditional conversation system, the acting takes place in the players head. We may be limited in exactly what we can say, but how the character says it is all up to us.

 

Here we're being spoonfed how the character handles things, resulting in me playing Bio's character rather than my own, even if I do get a say in what the character says.

 

This is not to bash the ME system, for all I know it could be loads of fun. I don't judge anything until I've had first hand experience with it. But there is a huge difference to how it traditionally work in western RPGs.

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And there you have what many people in this forum is concern about. Instead of role-playing as an rational thinker with high intelligence and wisdom, we're forced to play a character that only answers through his or hers emotions.

 

...i definately hope that it will not resort to that.

 

Oh please ... when "roleplaying" in a video game you pick the response that you want. Whether it's an "angry" (evil most of the time) response, a "nice" response, a "neutral" response, a "greedy" response, or whatever. It's no different before, only this time, instead of reading dialog the entire game, it's broken down into the basics of the response, and the real dialog is acted for you.

 

Of course, I can see how it's horrible. I'd rather my characters stand there waving their arms pointlessly and not interacting with anyone around them or showing any emotion. That's real story-telling.

 

It's no different, just put your pessimistic outlook on the game aside and you'll realize that.

 

(something's wrong with the forum database, i didn't see your post until Spider responded to it)

 

My point was as Spider mentioned, that i'm worried about this emotional response. It is great in a theoretical sense, but I usually play sarcastic, evil or good characters that relies on wit and intelligence to get through. So far, this game has only shown taunts and other drivel which characterizes a regular fighter. Hopefully it may just be a selling point for ADHD people out there.

 

And why not a combination of those two? You can read your text and still see an animation that suits the response of your character. This way, skills (if there are any like this) like awereness, wisdom, intelligence, diplomacy and bluff can be used WITH a nice animation to it.


"Some men see things as they are and say why?"
"I dream things that never were and say why not?"
- George Bernard Shaw

"Hope in reality is the worst of all evils because it prolongs the torments of man."
- Friedrich Nietzsche

 

"The amount of energy necessary to refute bull**** is an order of magnitude bigger than to produce it."

- Some guy 

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"One could almost go as far as claiming the story to be a complete ripoff from Vandread."

 

Eh? The basic premise of ME is as old as time. It's not original; but I think it's rather hard to point out something specific that it's 'ripping off'. That's silly talk.

 

 

"In a more traditional conversation system, the acting takes place in the players head."

 

Eh? I'm iffy of this new dialogue system myself; but that's a silly reason to dislike or be ary of it, imo. It's no different than normal BIo dialogue since even there the character will never get to say exactly what they want to say anyways. The one positive here is that at least the player's intent can be more in tuned.

 

Still, I perosnally prefer seeing exactly what my character is gonna say even if it's not soemthing i'd 100% exactly say that.

 

Acting in one's head? What the heck is that supposed to mean? And, don't use the cop out of 'player imagination' because if you will; I'd have to suggest go back to playing pnp since the whole point of playing video games vs. pnp is being bale to see your character ons creena cting things out (hopefully with as much direction from the player as possible since it is a RPG).


DWARVES IN PROJECT ETERNITY = VOLOURN HAS PLEDGED $250.

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Eh? I'm iffy of this new dialogue system myself; but that's a silly reason to dislike or be ary of it, imo.

 

Never said I disliked it or that I was vary of it. In fact, I did just the opposite. I have no idea how it'll turn out since I haven't had any first hand experience with the system. It could be a huge improvement in how RPGs are played, it could totally tank. Only time will tell. All I did was point out how having the main character act out the responses differs from him not doing so.

 

Acting in one's head? What the heck is that supposed to mean? And, don't use the cop out of 'player imagination' because if you will; I'd have to suggest go back to playing pnp since the whole point of playing video games vs. pnp is being bale to see your character ons creena cting things out (hopefully with as much direction from the player as possible since it is a RPG).

 

That's your point of playing video games over pnp, not mine. I play cRPGs because I like interactive storytelling and because I like character building. But being able to see the character do things isn't much of a factor as to why I play (it's rather a requirement since it'd be mighty hard to play computer games otherwise, and no text based doesn't cut it).

 

So yeah, I suppose it comes down to player imagination. Since I am playing a character, the emotional state of that character factors in when I am choosing dialogue options. So if my character choses one response based on how I think it feels, and then it acts it out with a totally different undertone, then it's possible I would have made another choice.

 

But like I said, I am not passing judgment until I've played the game. What matters first and foremost is whether or not the game is fun. And I've certainly played enough cRPGs with worse roleplaying options (no matter how bad it turns out) and had fun with them, so it's not the end all, be all for me.

 

As a side note, does anyone know how much input we have on the main character? Are looks customizable? Is gender? And character abilities?

Edited by Spider

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Everything but last name (Shepard), race (himan and that he's a commander.

 

Gender, appearance, stats, abilities, class(es), even background are all player chooseable.

 

Also, it's been confirmed that the game will have multiple endings and ME1 will be the first BIO game where you can continue playing after you 'finish the game'.

 

Actually, it was 'confirmed' in an interview earlier; but I (and others) somehow missed it. Heh.

Edited by Volourn

DWARVES IN PROJECT ETERNITY = VOLOURN HAS PLEDGED $250.

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As a side note, does anyone know how much input we have on the main character? Are looks customizable? Is gender? And character abilities?

That's the $x-amount question. Judging from the vids so far, the name of your character is set in stone. From that, I would assume that gender is always male. I don't remember the name exactly, it could be something androgynous and I could be wrong. But I'm guessing the best we could hope for is a Deus Ex-style skin color choice.

 

As for character abilities, I'd say that's a given, regardless. They wouldn't be able to call it an RPG if you aren't able to customize those, even if something like Jade Empire would have been the same had there been no customization at all.

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Pop, may I ask what game you think this thread is dedicated to? Your assumptions are wayyyyyyyyyyyyyy offffffffffffffffffffffffffff....................


DWARVES IN PROJECT ETERNITY = VOLOURN HAS PLEDGED $250.

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Jade Empire comments never fail :rolleyes:

 

I think it odd that they would show all these vids with the same PC and never mention or show the character creation process. You'd think that they'd have that worked out by now. Bioware games as of late seem to also have dwindled in the number of "avatars" you can choose, with KOTOR being fairly limited and JE having 3 per gender (each of which was tied to a certain character type)

 

I could definitely envision Bioware going the JRPG route and making a PC that has a clearly defined backstory based on a single conception of the character that can't change. Revan's story was about as far as they could go without restricting character choice. I'd hope they'd go beyond that, but I don't expect it from them.

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They've expalined why theya re using just the one characetr mdoel in the demo videos. They'r eusing the character to pimp the game much like, say, Aribeth was used to pimp NWN or that one male character was used to pimp JE. They wnat it so when player sees 'Commander Shepard'; they know what game it's about.

 

 

"JE having 3 per gender (each of which was tied to a certain character type)"

 

No. No, they weren't. Character model had nothing to do with 'character type' in JE. None whatsoever.

Edited by Volourn

DWARVES IN PROJECT ETERNITY = VOLOURN HAS PLEDGED $250.

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Anyhow, i see Mass Effect as a game with many interesting features (lots of exploring, many planets, graphics and facial animations) but with little substance.

Whether that's true or not, Mes, that conclusion is just a knee-jerk reaction. This opinion would carry much more weight after the game is released and you've actually played it.

 

Prejudging a game by the way it "looks" is similar to discriminating against a person without getting to know them - sure, it's easy, but it's also somewhat shallow.


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Or maybe he's prejudging it based on his opinion of past Bioware games.


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Perhaps, but this isn't Bethesda. Bioware has made good games before. This is undeniable. No reason they can't buck a trend or two or three.

 

We could get a Jade Empire or we could get a Baldur's Gate. Without having played the game, I don't see how we could say with absolute certainty that Mass Effect is going to continue Bioware's recent slump (if we consider KOTOR to be of lesser quality than earlier offerings, which I think is safe) We can still be surprised.

Edited by Pop

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That depends. Not everyone is a huge fan of Bioware's older games. I'm not sure where Messhugie stands. If I weren't given Bioware the benefit of the doubt for their upcoming titles, I wouldn't be far off from his impression.

 

As you say, not Bethesda. But Bethesda also technically makes 'good games' that the majority like.

 

:p:):x:brows:


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"We could get a Jade Empire or we could get a Baldur's Gate. Without having played the game, I don't see how we could say with absolute certainty that Mass Effect is going to continue Bioware's recent slump (if we consider KOTOR to be of lesser quality than earlier offerings, which I think is safe) We can still be surprised."

 

JE is their best ROLE-PLAYING game so I wouldn't call it a 'slump'. R00fles!


DWARVES IN PROJECT ETERNITY = VOLOURN HAS PLEDGED $250.

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Anyhow, i see Mass Effect as a game with many interesting features (lots of exploring, many planets, graphics and facial animations) but with little substance.

Whether that's true or not, Mes, that conclusion is just a knee-jerk reaction. This opinion would carry much more weight after the game is released and you've actually played it.

 

Prejudging a game by the way it "looks" is similar to discriminating against a person without getting to know them - sure, it's easy, but it's also somewhat shallow.

 

Now, now. Comparing the first impression of the character of a person to the content of a Bioware is not something that i would normally do. I do like Bioware games in general, they usually have great production value through and through. What made me sceptical about this game's substance is the following:

 

- In the first video, the woman in the bar says something like "The machines! They're coming back! And powerful people want you to be quiet!". Unless Bioware is trying to fool the player with ancient race that are coming back YET another time, if find it tedious to play a trilogy based on that assumption alone.

 

- At first, i thought that when the main character grapped the barkeep and gave him a little taunt was just to show of the technology and nothing more. But in the second video, there was little choice on how to deal with the situation. Playing a game like this isn't immersive IMO:

 

NPC1: We have to help them!

NPC2: No! that isn't our objective of this mission!

 

With possible answers being:

[Regular] Yes, i agree with NPC1 (normal animation)

[Regular] Yes, i agree with NPC2 (normal animation)

[Angry] We have to save them! (angry animation)

[Angry] No! We a mission to do! (angry animation)

 

Compared to other RPG's, this seems like they're taking away the choice of the player being able to read and carefully analyze their dialogue before answering. I wonder why they didn't combine the best out of both's methods, instead pushing one and letting the other stay in the background.

 

- Second, the combat seems off. It looks like they're either trying to to Republic Commando or Halo with stats, without going all the way out on FPS department. Deus Ex did it good, and System Shock 2 aswell. Bloodlines on the other hand, failed. Bioware has a great oppurtunity to make a great FPS with RPG-elements, but instead they have to do something in-between, which has so far failed to impress me.

 

When Mass Effect was announced at first, i found it an interesting concept, but instead, it seems like a very straightforward and simple game set in space.


"Some men see things as they are and say why?"
"I dream things that never were and say why not?"
- George Bernard Shaw

"Hope in reality is the worst of all evils because it prolongs the torments of man."
- Friedrich Nietzsche

 

"The amount of energy necessary to refute bull**** is an order of magnitude bigger than to produce it."

- Some guy 

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