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Does your country grant you liberty?


Eddo36

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No idea (honest)...

 

Your country is not a fixed thing, when you live in different countries where you don't have citizenship, only permits and visas. At least I've got a good excuse for not voting at any elections and can happily ignore local politics :-"

Edited by Gorth

“He who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would surely suffice.” - Albert Einstein

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Uh, well, it depends on where you're coming from. The idea of liberty is one that originates in Social Contract theory. But the conception of liberty is different from Hobbes to Locke, the two ethicists who thought up the theory. According to Hobbes, everyone has a natural right to do whatever they want, but a government's responsibility is to revoke some rights (like the right to murder, or the right to lie) in order to create greater security for everyone under the contract of citizenship. Locke subscribes to the opposite view, that a government's responsibility is to ensure that its citizens have a right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of property, in those words which the American founding fathers poached.

 

It's not that simple, of course, the accounts are wildly different when it comes to their view of basic human nature and the ideal form a government should take, it just so happens that they both subscribe to a "contract" by which multiple people can coexist without compromising their basic rights.

 

But Lockean theory is the preeminent of the two, it's the theory from which Western political ideology flows, as it is concieved in the "representative democracy", and it's the the theory from which this idea of "liberty" and rights comes from. Locke would argue that a government can't take liberty from you, that a government only has power over you if you agree to let it (in other words, if you sign the social contract) If a government restricts your freedom in a way that does not suit you, then it is your obligation to rebel against it.

 

Some might say there are no natural rights that people have by default, or that no one's rights should not trump another's right not to be harmed (the two inevitably come into conflict at some point).

 

I don't know if that answers the question.

Edited by Pop
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No, for ethics is a way of life.

 

nah, being "ethical" means that we'd be in a soup kitchen helping the homeless or something.

Tell that to Ayn Rand :- Ethical does not necessarily equal altruistic, at least not all the time.

 

Being "ethical" only means that you do what you think ought be done. But you're right in that this seems to be an exercise without much point. Supposing that we come up with a definitive answer to the question posed, we haven't really gotten anywhere. I'm assuming that there's some intent behind the question that isn't being stated, and I'll roll the dice and say that it has something to do with the Bush administration.

 

The fact that this thread is pointless is because it's not applied ethics. "Can a government grant me liberty" is theoretical thics. "Can we execute prisoners of war" is applied ethics. If you want to foster debate, use the latter and not the former.

Edited by Pop
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I remember that Saved By the Bell College Years episode where they were taking ethics class (the only episode they ever took that class in) and then they were all freaked out abd worried because the mid-term was going to be tough. Zak finds a copy of the mid-term and shares it with his friends, but they decide not to use it and throw it away. Then, late that night, all of them go seperately to find the test in the dumpster, and after some zaney garbage diving antics, and the hilarity that ensues, they go to class the next day. When they get there, they find out that the professor leftthe test for them to find, because the real ethics test was wether or not they were going to cheat. They all learned a valuable lesson, and made a few friends along the way.

 

I believe that answers your question. Think about it Eddo.

Lou Gutman, P.I.- It's like I'm not even trying anymore!
http://theatomicdanger.iforumer.com/index....theatomicdanger

One billion b-balls dribbling simultaneously throughout the galaxy. One trillion b-balls being slam dunked through a hoop throughout the galaxy. I can feel every single b-ball that has ever existed at my fingertips. I can feel their collective knowledge channeling through my viens. Every jumpshot, every rebound and three-pointer, every layup, dunk, and free throw. I am there.

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I remember that Saved By the Bell College Years episode where they were taking ethics class (the only episode they ever took that class in) and then they were all freaked out abd worried because the mid-term was going to be tough.  Zak finds a copy of the mid-term and shares it with his friends, but they decide not to use it and throw it away.  Then, late that night, all of them go seperately to find the test in the dumpster, and after some zaney garbage diving antics, and the hilarity that ensues, they go to class the next day.  When they get there, they find out that the professor leftthe test for them to find, because the real ethics test was wether or not they were going to cheat.  They all learned a valuable lesson, and made a few friends along the way.

 

I believe that answers your question.  Think about it Eddo.

 

That is the most awesome response I've ever seen. :aiee:

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I think it depends on the instance. We are born with most of our liberties held either by the state or our parents. The situation becomes more complex as we move into school, and some of our liberties are taken/transferred to the teachers, and anyone larger and meaner than we are. We then become teenagers and begin demanding them back. Some of these demands are met. Some of these demands are NOT met with derision.

 

So practically and chronologically speaking I'd say I won my liberties from a lot of people/organisations, including the state. Philosophically speaking, and removing the time element, however, I'd say we are in constant tension with the state. It is a negotiation that begins with neither and both holding ALL the liberties.

"It wasn't lies. It was just... bull****"."

             -Elwood Blues

 

tarna's dead; processing... complete. Disappointed by Universe. RIP Hades/Sand/etc. Here's hoping your next alt has a harp.

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Except for all the laws, yes. <_<

Retreat, Hell! We're just fighting in another direction!" - General O.P. Smith (North Korea 1950)

"All warfare is based on deception." - Sun Tzu

"The object of war is not to die for your country but to make the other bastard die for his." - George S. Patton, Jr.

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Yeah, that whole "You're not allowed to kill your neighbor and have sex with his dog" thing is a real kicker. :rolleyes:

I had thought that some of nature's journeymen had made men and not made them well, for they imitated humanity so abominably. - Book of Counted Sorrows

 

'Cause I won't know the man that kills me

and I don't know these men I kill

but we all wind up on the same side

'cause ain't none of us doin' god's will.

- Everlast

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That law should only apply to half the population. :rolleyes:

I had thought that some of nature's journeymen had made men and not made them well, for they imitated humanity so abominably. - Book of Counted Sorrows

 

'Cause I won't know the man that kills me

and I don't know these men I kill

but we all wind up on the same side

'cause ain't none of us doin' god's will.

- Everlast

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That law should only apply to half the population.  :shifty:

 

Men?

 

Ugly?

Reindeer...of course.

I had thought that some of nature's journeymen had made men and not made them well, for they imitated humanity so abominably. - Book of Counted Sorrows

 

'Cause I won't know the man that kills me

and I don't know these men I kill

but we all wind up on the same side

'cause ain't none of us doin' god's will.

- Everlast

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Or does your country merely not take liberty away from you?

 

Different issue. Again, please think and maintain a healthy discussion.

 

I'm beginning to think that you've received one of those chain letters where they ask a whole bunch of worthless questions, that really can't be answered, and now you're just posting each question as an individual topic.

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Or does your country merely not take liberty away from you?

 

Different issue. Again, please think and maintain a healthy discussion.

 

I'm beginning to think that you've received one of those chain letters where they ask a whole bunch of worthless questions, that really can't be answered, and now you're just posting each question as an individual topic.

His programmer is still working on his script. Just wait for Eddo37 :shifty:

 

I don't think the original question can be answered in a way that makes sense. Countries doesn't grant you anything except perhaps an identity. People (Goverments?) do things, countries just are as far as I know.

“He who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would surely suffice.” - Albert Einstein

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That law should only apply to half the population.  :thumbsup:

 

Men?

 

Ugly?

 

I've always had the philosophy - "Men are just ugly girls" - especially when it comes to sarging.. ^_^

 

and as such it should only apply to ugly girls..

Edited by Rosbjerg

Fortune favors the bald.

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I'm a pretty pretty princess!

Lou Gutman, P.I.- It's like I'm not even trying anymore!
http://theatomicdanger.iforumer.com/index....theatomicdanger

One billion b-balls dribbling simultaneously throughout the galaxy. One trillion b-balls being slam dunked through a hoop throughout the galaxy. I can feel every single b-ball that has ever existed at my fingertips. I can feel their collective knowledge channeling through my viens. Every jumpshot, every rebound and three-pointer, every layup, dunk, and free throw. I am there.

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That'd explain the tiara and sparkly white dress.

I had thought that some of nature's journeymen had made men and not made them well, for they imitated humanity so abominably. - Book of Counted Sorrows

 

'Cause I won't know the man that kills me

and I don't know these men I kill

but we all wind up on the same side

'cause ain't none of us doin' god's will.

- Everlast

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