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Playing the semantic game, it actually is not "stealing."  However, many people (myself included probably) do consider it to be a loose form of "theft."  But it's still exceptionally different than stealing a specific, tangible object such as a Ferrari.

 

It doens't matter that it isn't physical. It financially hurts the creator, also known as "Theft". If you hurt somebody by stealing his cash, or just borrow his cash and never return is no different.

Therefore I wouldn't count it in a different catagory than shoplifters or car-thieves etc.

 

Well, what exactly are you "stealing?"  You're certainly getting access to unauthorized information.  Would it still be stealing if you found a way into the CIA offices and read the information off a piece of paper without taking it?

 

Same as with games. You steal the bits and bytes, non-physical information, where alot of hard effort is put in creating, even if the result is digital, and thus cannot be touched and therefore "stolen" (by your definition of theft)...

 

Copyright Infringement.  Assuming the information was copyrighted.  The crime most likely committed in this situation is probably treason though.

 

Yep. If you steal it from the government it is treason and you get sentances of many many years (if not life). But for the commercial companies it is totally free?

 

This is where the shady ground comes in and why pirates are able to rationalize their actions.  There is some merit to their assertions that if they had to pay for it, then they probably wouldn't play it (my roommate is living proof of this).

 

Rationalize a crime. How pretty.

If a criminal steals from a supper and he tells us that it was "because he wanted the luxure food items but couldn't pay them" the government would lock him up... but if a gamer says (and acts) the same he is free to do so? Would the shoplifter had any intention to buy the items at any rate? No, no, no...

 

If you insist on using Ferrari's (or material goods in general) as a comparison, then you are basically claiming that what we buy is the CD.  However, what we are really paying for is the ideas stored on that CD.  When we buy a Ferrari, we're buying a car made of tangible materials.

 

No, I just used that for the "No cash, Take it!" comment. For the actual "digital information theft comparison" I used that CIA example...

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Have you not heard of shareware? There is a sizeable market for beginners to ply their wares (see what I did there?) using the "shareware" model: i.e. free to try and please contribute something to the developer if you like it.

 

As much as you seem to be trying to discount this business model, it has already proved effective. Maybe you've heard of Id Software? How about Gearbox?

 

Isn't that more Freeware or Public Domain? The Shareware model that I'm familiar with is usually either trial based, or with limited functionality. Doom for instance, only had the first episode available as Shareware. If you wanted to play the other levels, you had to buy the game. It wasn't "please contribute if you like it." It was "please contribute if you want to play more." Alternative styles are the 30 day trial periods that offer full functionality (well, usually), but disable themselves after the trial period is over.

  • Shareware = Try it for free, if you use it, then buy it to get rid of the ubiquitous nag screen (and possibly the appliction is nerfed, as well).
    GNU GPL = Use it for personal requirements for free, but any revenue generation needs to be reconciled with the original author.
    Freeware / Public Domain = All yours, baby, but please consider the developer and contribute what you think is fair.

Doom was Shareware. ZoneAlarm Personal Ed is freeware.

 

I forgot a big one, too: Duke Nukem.

 

:lol:

OBSCVRVM PER OBSCVRIVS ET IGNOTVM PER IGNOTIVS

ingsoc.gif

OPVS ARTIFICEM PROBAT

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Yarrrrrr me hearties...

 

*browses his cd-library*

Edited by Musopticon?

I was raised by polar bears. I had to fight against blood thirsty wolves and rabid penguins to get my food. Those who were too weak to survive were sent to Sweden.

 

It has made me the man I am today. A man who craves furry hentai.

So let us go and embrace the rustling smells of unseen worlds

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A. Hey! I can't pay a Ferrari... Can I take one?

B. Game prices haven't fluctuated with the Inflation for many, many, many years. Profit per copy is less than it used to be, while the money costs per copy are way higher. A price reduction is equal to a financial suicide...

C. So, they wan't to test it, eh? Ever heard of DEMO'S? Because that is what they are for (try before the buy), not a complete copy of the game..., after which like 30% of the DL'ers don't buy even if they like it and completed it trice ("hey, why buy it, if I already have it")...

D. Heavy punishment on the user side would be a big step in scarring them off...

 

:blink:

 

I think I love you. You get it. You really get it.

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What if I just don't care what suits in high-wage offices think?

I was raised by polar bears. I had to fight against blood thirsty wolves and rabid penguins to get my food. Those who were too weak to survive were sent to Sweden.

 

It has made me the man I am today. A man who craves furry hentai.

So let us go and embrace the rustling smells of unseen worlds

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Kirottu has fulfilled his reason to live.

 

Some people are just too lucky. <_<

Edited by Musopticon?

I was raised by polar bears. I had to fight against blood thirsty wolves and rabid penguins to get my food. Those who were too weak to survive were sent to Sweden.

 

It has made me the man I am today. A man who craves furry hentai.

So let us go and embrace the rustling smells of unseen worlds

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It doens't matter that it isn't physical. It financially hurts the creator, also known as "Theft". If you hurt somebody by stealing his cash, or just borrow his cash and never return is no different.

Therefore I wouldn't count it in a different catagory than shoplifters or car-thieves etc.

.

 

 

Financially hurting someone does not equal theft? If I post slanderous information about a company, it financially hurts them. But it's not theft.

 

When using the term "stealing" it actually does matter if it's physical. Copyright infringement is a 1000000% better term.

 

And you should count it differently than the theft of physical items because it is different. You're just being obtuse about it.

 

Yep. If you steal it from the government it is treason and you get sentances of many many years (if not life). But for the commercial companies it is totally free?

 

Stealing from the government is not treason. Unauthorized access of sensitive information and distributing that information and compromising national security is treason. And I never said that doing it against commercial companies is totally free (which it's not). Thanks for the straw man!

 

Same as with games. You steal the bits and bytes, non-physical information, where alot of hard effort is put in creating, even if the result is digital, and thus cannot be touched and therefore "stolen" (by your definition of theft)...

 

<sigh>

 

Rationalize a crime. How pretty.

 

Yes, I'm totally rationalizing crime :(

 

For the record I'm exceptionally adamant against software piracy. My first posts on this forum was in a piracy thread. I even [erroneously] used the term stealing much like you are now.

 

The fact of the matter is, you state straight up that it "financially hurts" the company. And then you use examples involving tangible objects as support. If a person had zero intention of legally purchasing the game, then how does a pirated copy "financially hurt" the company. The same does go for the person that cannot afford it. Is it still a lost sale if it was never going to be purchased?

 

 

If a criminal steals from a supper and he tells us that it was "because he wanted the luxure food items but couldn't pay them" the government would lock him up... but if a gamer says (and acts) the same he is free to do so? Would the shoplifter had any intention to buy the items at any rate? No, no, no...

 

Again, this is why you cannot compare it to a physical object. When someone steals a physical object, that physical object is no longer there for the owner to do anything with. And when on Earth did I say that a gamer is free to pirate software? Please show a little respect by not putting words into my mouth and passing judgement on me.

 

 

No, I just used that for the "No cash, Take it!" comment. For the actual "digital information theft comparison" I used that CIA example...

 

It still doesn't work. Theft of physical objects cannot be rationalized as a "victimless crime." It's why many people have no problems downloading music or pirating software, yet not everyone is going off to their Ferrari dealership and taking the cars. Stealing a physical object creates an undeniable loss to the owner of the object. Stealing intellectual property is not an undeniable loss.

 

 

Widespread Piracy does financially hurt companies. But it's virtually impossible to predict how much. The computer companies consider every pirated piece of software when determining their losses due to piracy (which I probably would too). But it shouldn't take much to realize that those values do not reflect the actual loss of revenue. I'd still use those numbers because people have used the software without properly acquiring the license. But it's easy to see (or so I thought) that those numbers, if piracy did not exist in any way, would not have been purely translated into capital for the owner of the IP.

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Actually, I don't believe that piracy IS copyright infringement. Now if one plagiarizes a game, removing huge hunks of dialogue and plot details and markets them as one's own, then that is copyright infringement (presuming that games are covered by the same basic copyright as are novels... ). However, if you actually steal the completed game, whether you shove the box under your shirt and walk out without paying or download an illegal copy of the game from the internet, you have stolen the completed work of the game developer. That is theft, not copyright infringement.

Edited by ~Di
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Copyright is a statutory or common law right of authors, artists, and developers (or other holders of a copyright) to publish their works, and to prevent others from copying their works. Infringement includes the unauthorized or unlicensed copying of a work subject to copyright. For example, Title 17 of the U.S. Code (which pertains to copyrights) defines the exclusive rights of copyright holders. There are also several provisions which create crimes for copyright infringement.

 

http://www.techlawjournal.com/glossary/leg...nfringement.asp

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I am awareof that. I personally own more than 30 copyrights myself, so I have a fair idea of what infringement is.

 

However, taking a book and/or game out of a store without paying for it is stealing; downloading a book and/or a game from an illegal web site without paying for it is also stealing, not copyright infringement. The copyright laws themselves may be a jumble of complexity, but theft itself is rather simple. Something has a price tag; someone ignores that price tag and takes it for personal use without paying. That is theft.

Edited by ~Di
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Financially hurting someone does not equal theft?  If I post slanderous information about a company, it financially hurts them.  But it's not theft.

 

When using the term "stealing" it actually does matter if it's physical.  Copyright infringement is a 1000000% better term.

 

And you should count it differently than the theft of physical items because it is different.  You're just being obtuse about it.

 

Slanderous information could hurt them...but it might also benefit. Post information a company put an illegal sex game in a game and has to remove it by law and $ (of sold games) and free marketing...

 

Theft is financially hurting a company. No way to deny that.

 

No, it DOES matter. According to you and other people here "stealing" is perfectly fine, if the creator didn't create his loss himself... but another created the copy of the creation that causes the loss (and now I totally lost myself too...)

 

Stealing has, and is for as I know, taking stuff, be it physical or digital that you should not have for free for free...

 

Yes, I'm totally rationalizing crime :(

 

For the record I'm exceptionally adamant against software piracy.  My first posts on this forum was in a piracy thread.  I even [erroneously] used the term stealing much like you are now.

 

The fact of the matter is, you state straight up that it "financially hurts" the company.  And then you use examples involving tangible objects as support.  If a person had zero intention of legally purchasing the game, then how does a pirated copy "financially hurt" the company.  The same does go for the person that cannot afford it.  Is it still a lost sale if it was never going to be purchased?

 

"erroneously", eh?

Well, I have to bring such examples; since there is barely anything to compare it with. It might be with Music and such, but since that is about the same as the currently discussed games (is it stealing or not... should we ban it or not) I have to find some other examples, eh?

 

And if a person doesn't wan't to pay for something or can't... WHY SHOULD HE PLAY IT? I mean, if you don't wan't to Play it (and thus pay), why do you DL it, and complete it etc.?

Seems like a double morale to me...

 

Again, this is why you cannot compare it to a physical object.  When someone steals a physical object, that physical object is no longer there for the owner to do anything with.  And when on Earth did I say that a gamer is free to pirate software?  Please show a little respect by not putting words into my mouth and passing judgement on me.

 

So, that only matters to SHOPKEEPERS. They have the final "no longer to sell". Do the Developer or Producer have that...No, they don't even have it somewhere to be robbed.

So, do they have the same damage from DL'ing as from Theft... YES. Another unsolled item...

 

And when on Earth did I say you said gamers are free to pirate? It seems like a general statement that that is the way... not a personal response on your post...

 

It still doesn't work.  Theft of physical objects cannot be rationalized as a "victimless crime."  It's why many people have no problems downloading music or pirating software, yet not everyone is going off to their Ferrari dealership and taking the cars.

 

Maybe that would be more because of privacy issues and security than of mentality. Put 100 Ferrari's on some parking spot, without any security and the keys inside and you will surely loose all of them in a short while...

 

Stealing a physical object creates an undeniable loss to the owner of the object. Stealing intellectual property is not an undeniable loss.

 

Sure, it is a loss. But one theft of such an object is alot less worse than 10 of these objects being carbon-copied and given away free.

Sure, you could sell that 1, but you could sell 10 more (others) to the people who would pay if it wasn't free (and took a carbon copy)...

 

Widespread Piracy does financially hurt companies.  But it's virtually impossible to predict how much.  The computer companies consider every pirated piece of software when determining their losses due to piracy (which I probably would too).  But it shouldn't take much to realize that those values do not reflect the actual loss of revenue.  I'd still use those numbers because people have used the software without properly acquiring the license.  But it's easy to see (or so I thought) that those numbers, if piracy did not exist in any way, would not have been purely translated into capital for the owner of the IP.

 

How can a company possibly count all "DL'ed copies"?

There are alot more DL-pages out there than any one person can find in his whole life...and more get added every minute...second...

And the largest part does not buy a real copy. Also, there would be a size-able chuck that WOULD buy that game if it wasn't free (they are not all "no cash, no interest (Than why do you wan't to DL it :lol:" ) or Try before I buy it")...

I now alot of people that DL games not because they wouldn't buy games (Trust me; they would if they had to)...but just because Free=Good. There are plenty of people who are such a fan of a game and completed it 10x... without ever paying for it once, is that *trying*?

Also; many are anticipation games and when it comes to it click a button to get it. They just don't care about any labour done for creating it...

And yes; they do damn well know that if they buy it it will support the Devs and such, but FREE is too hard to resist. And, hey, there are always other people who buy it too to help the Dev, no?

RESULT: Exit Troika, Exit Looking Glass, Exit Black Isle (and the list goes on)

 

EDIT: And now I think of it, an appendix for the "Stealing is taking away a copy that could otherwise be sold, while pirating isn't":

 

This could actually generate MORE money for the Developer and Producer (unlike DL'ing, Burning copies). The store has one less copy; and has to buy a new one at the Producer. Means extra $, and extra $ for the Devs. Only the shop has losses. With Pirating all 3 have losses...

(Now, explain to my why that is better?)

Edited by Battlewookiee
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Looking Glass was killed by Eidos, due to Daikatana needing more money.

 

Black Isle was killed by this certain rather insane man.

 

Troika died, because their execution of ideas was rather lacking. In a nutshell, the R&D shined, but the QA didn't.

I was raised by polar bears. I had to fight against blood thirsty wolves and rabid penguins to get my food. Those who were too weak to survive were sent to Sweden.

 

It has made me the man I am today. A man who craves furry hentai.

So let us go and embrace the rustling smells of unseen worlds

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Looking Glass was killed by Eidos, due to Daikatana needing more money.

 

And they wanted to make that up by financing Daikatana for Ion Storm...?

Seems, well, odd

 

Black Isle was killed by this certain rather insane man.

 

:huh:

 

Troika died, because their execution of ideas was rather lacking. In a nutshell, the R&D shined, but the QA didn't.

 

Yup. Producers and their low-quality QA's. Anyway, how sold Vampire? And how can it be that even if it sold so low everybody knows how it plays, looks, the story and how good it is (same with PS:T actually)... :-

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We've completely lost each other once again, it seems.

I was raised by polar bears. I had to fight against blood thirsty wolves and rabid penguins to get my food. Those who were too weak to survive were sent to Sweden.

 

It has made me the man I am today. A man who craves furry hentai.

So let us go and embrace the rustling smells of unseen worlds

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Everyone? Dude, if by 'everyone' you mean 'the regular posters on this and other RPG related message boards' then I would agree. If by 'everyone' you mean 'everyone who does a little gaming on the PC' I would like to know what you are on, and where I can get some to pawn off to my Drug Dealer buddies from highschool.

 

As for the man the killed BIS as well as Interplay...

 

20040702h.jpg

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^An internet classic

I was raised by polar bears. I had to fight against blood thirsty wolves and rabid penguins to get my food. Those who were too weak to survive were sent to Sweden.

 

It has made me the man I am today. A man who craves furry hentai.

So let us go and embrace the rustling smells of unseen worlds

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The only way to stop piracy is to stop people from wanting to copy the game more than they want to buy it.

 

Believing stricter laws will change anything is naive. The US has the death penalty for murder (like Albania and China), still the US has one of the highest murder rates of all nations in the world, including those currently at war. Laws are good, but they don't affect people the way you think.

 

I used to buy Gold Box games, which were big carton boxes with awesome artwork printed on them. They contained a bundle of floppy discs, a thick manual, a paragraph book with maps and printed on old-looking paper and other odds and ends. Those cost me around 250 SEK. Today when I buy a game they cost around 400 SEK, and I get a DVD and a puny manual. Nothing else. Often there's a .pdf on the DVD that I have to print out myself instead of the manual.

 

It's not really difficult to see why the pirate version (with a crack that also allows me to play the game without turning my computer to crap) often is more attractive than the retail version (with Starforce 3 that spies on me, prevents me from listening to CD's and slows down my computer even when I'm not playing the game).

 

An ankh and a cloth map could change a lot of things.

Swedes, go to: Spel2, for the latest game reviews in swedish!

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"The US has the death penalty for murder (like Albania and China), still the US has one of the highest murder rates of all nations in the world, including those currently at war. Laws are good, but they don't affect people the way you think."

 

In all fairness, murder and piracy aren't comparable in this aspect. At all.

9/30 -- NEVER FORGET!

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