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Does Revan's fate make any sense?


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nur i competely agree with you. I heavily dislike revan. like you said, in kotor all they do is **** you're ego when ur revan with how powerful and brilliant you were, and most of all, i hated absolutely hated manaan. plus the starforges potential was kind of wasted, all it was was a gaping hole with walkways and catwalks. for a race attuned to the force, it didnt look very forcefull. no meditation chambers, at least that we could see, all we could see was a damn shaft.

 

i dont know, revan just annoys me becuz its that typical starwars persona everyone digs into. w/ anakin i can understand-hes the chosen one so naturally hes a war hero, obi-wan-luckiest jedi ever, practically non raped by the eu writers, luke-hes supposedly the best jedi ever or w/e but he doesnt consider himself a hero, which is the type of character I'd rather play. It annoyed me so much how everything is connected to revan, the guy who had a rusty mask, and who ran off into the unkown regions to...we dont know what.

 

for once id like to play a decently powerful jedi who has nothing reall expected of him/her, ur choices sculpt him/her into the jedi or sith you want him/her to be, i mean we cant really personalize our character the way we'd like becuz in kotor you have to have essential feats and if you dont modd or cheat then u only have a few feats or attributes to customize ur pc with without making the pc too weak. in k2 my guy never really stood out w/ anything. mainly his force powers were storm,heal,persuade,kill,drain,aura,speed, etc. idk i guess there isnt really a "perfect" rpg.

 

one thing for k3 tho id like to see is ascension thru the ranks of the jedi/sith

padawan-knight-master

acolyte-sith-sith lord

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Hehe anakins revenge it's good to hear your voice of reason again :-

HERMOCRATES:

Nur Ab Sal was one such king. He it was, say the wise men of Egypt, who first put men in the colossus, making many freaks

of nature at times when the celestial spheres were well aligned.

 

SOCRATES:

This I doubt. We are hearing a child's tale.

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It also makes me question how even if Revan had completely pure intentions initially (whether they stayed that way or not), he still defied the Jedi Council's orders to accomplish them. No matter what the intent, that kind of arrogance goes against what I think of as burying the needle on the top of the LS scale :rolleyes: Again tyranny can come from either side - which has been discussed already as far as it relates to the context of the story - but such direct disobedience being justified totally by intent? Just doesn't fit for me...which is why I am glad we get to choose the DS ending in K2. No matter - like you said, he's got a lot to answer for if he feels like it.

 

Well, Revan's defiance of the masters isn't really such a big deal - so he disobeyed the council, so what? The masters don't need to be right just because they sit on the council, and in this case they seem to have been more wrong than usual. Ulic defied the council too, yet that disobedience isn't what caused him to fall - it was his choice to embrace the dark side that let him to his downfall, and even the masters accepted that he had to walk the path he had chosen. The masters of Revan's time seem more arrogant and have little respect for the individual jedi's right to follow his own choices, and that begs defiance at some point. The masters told Revan and the others that they were not allowed to move against the Mandalorians while millions died in the outer rim. But a jedi's life is sacrifice, and it was probably instinct for many of the jedi to want to do something about it. By being stubborn about it, you could argue that the masters forced Revan's choice - if he and Malak hadn't defied them, then someone else probably would have. Given how many jedi followed Revan and Malak, it seems to justify Revan's choice at that point. So I think the real problem came later, when Revan decided to convert the jedi who served with him. I cannot see defiance of a harsh authority that dictates your duty to you as a real crime. On the contrary, most of the more horrible crimes of humanity we could mention in the real world have come about when people have blindly followed the orders of their leaders.

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One year ago I imagined that TSL story will have this shape:

LS K1ending: Revan's working for Jedi Council and whether you are LS or DS you either cooperate with him or have to kill him

DS K1 ending: Revan and Bastila almost conquered Republic and no matter if you're DS or LS you have to eliminate them... perhaps during final battle for coruscant on their flagship

 

 

you're thought of the game as too much action oriented, what I'm saying is that this was never comparable to a FPS in which you fight through hordes of battles to face bastila and then revan.

 

the game was pretty good in my opinion, they just needed to polish off some stuff.

 

Hopefully K3 will be great :thumbsup:

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Well, Revan's defiance of the masters isn't really such a big deal - so he disobeyed the council, so what?

 

(etc - it's right up there ^^ :) )

 

 

I definitely see your points, but I still think there's some self-righteous arrogance involved in someone of a relatively young age and (as far as I know) little experience in world-saving taking on such a decision - even if it was necessary and correct to do so. Excuses/guilt/redemption/K3 were brought up a little ways back; I think some degree of guilt is inevitable because of that.

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Well, Revan's defiance of the masters isn't really such a big deal - so he disobeyed the council, so what?

 

(etc - it's right up there ^^ :) )

 

 

I definitely see your points, but I still think there's some self-righteous arrogance involved in someone of a relatively young age and (as far as I know) little experience in world-saving taking on such a decision - even if it was necessary and correct to do so. Excuses/guilt/redemption/K3 were brought up a little ways back; I think some degree of guilt is inevitable because of that.

 

It depends entirely on how it all turns out. Revan's defiance was disrespectful, so whether it was justified depends on whether he turns out to be right or not. As we find out, Revan definitely wasn't right on all points, and he ended up making big mistakes as a result - he trusted far too much in his own abilities, and the result was catastrophic.

 

That doesn't mean the masters were right either, though some - notably Vrook - hasten to infer so on that basis. As Zez-Kai Ell says, the defiant jedi were not to blame, and the masters made plenty of mistakes themselves. I like Zez-Kai Ell because he acknowledges that the masters probably have the greater share in the blame, because unlike the young jedi like Revan, they were actually supposed to know better.

 

Instead we have a situation where the masters decree that 2+2=3 while Revan maintains that 2+2=5... ;)

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It depends entirely on how it all turns out. Revan's defiance was disrespectful, so whether it was justified depends on whether he turns out to be right or not. As we find out, Revan definitely wasn't right on all points, and he ended up making big mistakes as a result - he trusted far too much in his own abilities, and the result was catastrophic.

 

That doesn't mean the masters were right either, though some - notably Vrook - hasten to infer so on that basis. As Zez-Kai Ell says, the defiant jedi were not to blame, and the masters made plenty of mistakes themselves. I like Zez-Kai Ell because he acknowledges that the masters probably have the greater share in the blame, because unlike the young jedi like Revan, they were actually supposed to know better.

 

Instead we have a situation where the masters decree that 2+2=3 while Revan maintains that 2+2=5... :-

 

Again I agree, just to me that doesn't fit with the jedi-superhero image the original post was criticizing. There's fault on all sides, and I think K2 elaborates on that rather than ignoring it. I am very bad at explaining though - I should not try but I am always compelled to defend Revan's story since it is my favorite in both games.

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Again I agree, just to me that doesn't fit with the jedi-superhero image the original post was criticizing. There's fault on all sides, and I think K2 elaborates on that rather than ignoring it. I am very bad at explaining though - I should not try but I am always compelled to defend Revan's story since it is my favorite in both games.

 

Well, some people don't like that Revan's story was "amended" because they feel he gets to look like a jedi superhero who could only ever make the right decisions, despite being having been the Dark Lord and doing really evil deeds.

 

I never saw it as such, though I can understand why some people might see that way. What you have to remember is that while Revan's intentions may have been for the greater good, that's no excuse for his actions - we all know what the road to Hell is paved with, and therefore Revan has never been a jedi hero in my book - he just went some distance to atone for his sins in K1, while K2 explained why he lost his way in the first place. But it's an explanation, not an excuse - there is no excuse.

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Not really a problem :cat:

HERMOCRATES:

Nur Ab Sal was one such king. He it was, say the wise men of Egypt, who first put men in the colossus, making many freaks

of nature at times when the celestial spheres were well aligned.

 

SOCRATES:

This I doubt. We are hearing a child's tale.

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One year ago I imagined that TSL story will have this shape:

LS K1ending: Revan's working for Jedi Council and whether you are LS or DS you either cooperate with him or have to kill him

DS K1 ending: Revan and Bastila almost conquered Republic and no matter if you're DS or LS you have to eliminate them... perhaps during final battle for coruscant on their flagship

 

 

you're thought of the game as too much action oriented, what I'm saying is that this was never comparable to a FPS in which you fight through hordes of battles to face bastila and then revan.

 

the game was pretty good in my opinion, they just needed to polish off some stuff.

 

Hopefully K3 will be great :cat:

 

They missed such a great opportunity by not having Revan and Bastila be pivotal NPC's. I'm probably not the only one here who thinks it would have been neat to have a party of Exile, Revan and Bastila mowing down baddies on Malachor 5.

 

It would also be neat to face a darkside Revan and Bastila as a LS Exile. Also as a DS Exile you could betray your DS Revan "ally" for a good final fight. Naturally your DS Exile would have to square off against a LS Revan as part of taking over the galaxy.

 

Additionally, it would have added replay value if the world were modified heavily based on Revan's actions in Kotor 1. If you specify a DS Revan, then "the republic" should be replaced with "the new Empire" and statues of Revan should be everywhere. Also, the "Administrator" type characters you get your missions from should have a distinctly different flavor in this new "dark universe". Imagine being a LS'er and having to find a way to set all this right!

 

Sure there's the problem of knowing what Revan looks like and what sex and alignment he/she is. That is easily solvable by adding a few steps in the character creation process when you start a new game. You simply pick your Revan from the available Kotor 1 models then click a checkbox stating what alignment they are. Problem solved.

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Such were my exact expectations year ago...

HERMOCRATES:

Nur Ab Sal was one such king. He it was, say the wise men of Egypt, who first put men in the colossus, making many freaks

of nature at times when the celestial spheres were well aligned.

 

SOCRATES:

This I doubt. We are hearing a child's tale.

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Well you can't exactly have Revan and Exile meet unless your able to "design" both of them because they are both PC's, if you generate a model for then you anger some people

Victor of the 5 year fan fic competition!

 

Kevin Butler will awesome your face off.

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Just me, If Revan does return, I would rather have a human verison of Revan than a mythical verison of him.

 

Who wants a Perfect super being for a jedi?

 

 

That is why I am working on a possible scene where Revan will get tortured and his ass kick severly.

 

 

I am also working on a way to include the Exile's fate.

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Well you can't exactly have Revan and Exile meet unless your able to "design" both of them because they are both PC's, if you generate a model for then you anger some people

 

the biggest obstalce to having everything "wrapped up" in K3 is the fact that this would essentially require Revan (and possibly the Exile) to have "hard coded" appearances, alignments, genders, etc.

 

leaving Revan and the Exile ambiguous would allow them to avoid offending anyone on that level but then it all becomes an incomprehensible soap.

 

I say they hard code both Revan and the Exile and wrap this thing up. Revan is a LS, white, heterosexual male who marries Bastila. Don't like it? Then deal with it!

 

Exile is a Twilek.

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the biggest obstalce to having everything "wrapped up" in K3 is the fact that this would essentially require Revan (and possibly the Exile) to have "hard coded" appearances, alignments, genders, etc.

 

leaving Revan and the Exile ambiguous would allow them to avoid offending anyone on that level but then it all becomes an incomprehensible soap.

 

I say they hard code both Revan and the Exile and wrap this thing up. Revan is a LS, white, heterosexual male who marries Bastila. Don't like it? Then deal with it!

 

IMHO, the next dev's should hard code the alignment of both Revan and the Exile. I think that hard coding their appearance and gender would piss off too many people. For instance, my Revan is a waman simply because I find the character to be more interesting and unique that way... I mean how many female Sith Lords are there in Star Wars? not many...

 

Much like games like WarCraft 2, they should just assume that the good guys won... After all, it was fun to play dark side, but the light side endings made for a much more satisfying story.

 

Lastly, there are problems with the Dark side storyline. Namely, the fact that Revan just ran off one day after defeating Malak and retaking the Starforge is just too hard to swallow...

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well if you notice Warcraft 2 is actually both. For the horde your final level (If I'm remembering correctly) is against Gul'dan, and for the Alliance it's against the Orcs on Black Rock Mountain. so one comes before the other, Same with Byond the Dark Portal.

Victor of the 5 year fan fic competition!

 

Kevin Butler will awesome your face off.

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This is way OT, but whatever...

I didn't explain that well... WarCraft2's expansion packs assumed that the horde lost. As did WarCraft3...

 

PS: Actually the last level for the horde was the sack of Lordaeron (sp?).

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Well you can't exactly have Revan and Exile meet unless your able to "design" both of them because they are both PC's, if you generate a model for then you anger some people

 

Like I said at the end of my post, you can pick your Revan as part of the character creation process when you start a new game. In one easy step you've set the gender and appearance of "your" Revan. Then all you'd need is a check box or radio button to tell the game whether your Revan was LS savior or DS conquerer. That's two quick and painless steps.

 

The replay value of the game would have skyrocketed. You'd have to play it at least 4 times to see what happens when:

 

Exile is LS and Revan is DS,

Exile is LS and Revan is LS,

Exile is DS and Revan is LS,

Exile is DS and Revan is DS.

 

The whole concept of squaring off the toon you built in Kotor 1 versus the Exile is kind of neat as well. Also replay value could have been enhanced by having a lot of differences in the world where Revan is LS vs the world where Revan is DS. They just missed out when they copped out and gave some lame excuse about "true Sith". Yea whatever. <_<

 

When they copped out we missed out too... :(

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Also replay value could have been enhanced by having a lot of differences in the world where Revan is LS vs the world where Revan is DS.

 

A lot of people have brought this up, but realistically it just isn't going to happen. Creating major changes in a world map based on your character's alignment and/or gender would would double/quadruple the work for each significant location, especially when you take into account all of the character scripting and dialogue...

 

More importantly, continuity is becoming a major problem in this series. Every time there is a major variation in the details of the story based on your character stats, the work load of the devs grows larger and larger as they are forced to write and script a satisfying ending for each eventuality.

 

Since the devs decided not to actually finish the story, they suddenly seemed to realize that a sequel would be impossible unless the ending of KOTOR2 was more or less the same for light or dark sidel. Sadly, they wrote themselves into a corner... :(

 

Still, KOTOR3 will be very nearly impossible to design unless the devs canonize the characters of Revan and the Exile to some degree...

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More importantly, continuity is becoming a major problem in this series. Every time there is a major variation in the details of the story based on your character stats, the work load of the devs grows larger and larger as they are forced to write and script a satisfying ending for each eventuality.

 

Exactly...REVAN IS AN EU CONSTRUCT at this point. He WILL APPEAR in future (Dark Horse ?) continuity comics and other official continuity source material.

 

So, the best bet is to go ahead and lock him in to a certain identity and fate in K3. The sooner Revan gets "real resolution" the sooner they can use him more in other EU outlets, such as comics and novels.

 

Also: NO MORE PREGENS!!!! Customizable backstories are fine but not outright pregens.

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Also replay value could have been enhanced by having a lot of differences in the world where Revan is LS vs the world where Revan is DS.

A lot of people have brought this up, but realistically it just isn't going to happen. Creating major changes in a world map based on your character's alignment and/or gender would would double/quadruple the work for each significant location, especially when you take into account all of the character scripting and dialogue...

 

You can have all the same areas, just populate them with slightly different placeables. Also, one or two NPC's could be different, but a lot of them would be the same. For instance, let's say in LS Dantooine instead of Administrator Adare you get "Administrator Mission Vao". You'd still have the same Zherron, Azkul, Garevick and all the others.

 

More importantly, continuity is becoming a major problem in this series. Every time there is a major variation in the details of the story based on your character stats, the work load of the devs grows larger and larger as they are forced to write and script a satisfying ending for each eventuality.

 

  Since the devs decided not to actually finish the story, they suddenly seemed to realize that a sequel would be impossible unless the ending of KOTOR2 was more or less the same for light or dark sidel. Sadly, they wrote themselves into a corner...  8)

 

  Still, KOTOR3 will be very nearly impossible to design unless the devs canonize the characters of Revan and the Exile to some degree...

 

These are good reasons why it would have been better to "wrap it all up" in Kotor 2. Then they could have set Kotor 3 fifty years into the future to start fresh with a brand new story.

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Just me, If Revan does return, I would rather have a human verison of Revan than a mythical verison of him.

 

Who wants a Perfect super being for  a jedi?

 

 

That is why I am working on a possible scene where Revan will get tortured and his ass kick severly.

 

 

I am also working on a way to include the Exile's fate.

 

some peoples fantasies :rolleyes:

People laugh when I say that I think a jellyfish is one of the most beautiful things in the world. What they don't understand is, I mean a jellyfish with long, blond hair.

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