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we should start a petition I'm sure good 'ol GL would be thrilled to hear about that and get a lot of gamers to assist in the designing.

 

Lucas arts won't even accept suggestions for games by the public. I've tried. lol. I think that a KOTOR MMORPG would be a poor idea. It seems like a nice thought, but who would want to play a MMORPG that is completely full of Jedi running around. That's one problem that SWG ran into in regards to Jedi.

 

I've been playing SWG since it's beta stage. They had some great ideas when they created it. But, unfortunately I feel that SOE has all but ruined it. I still maintain my accounts there hoping that things will improve. But so far it hasn't happened. Soon I'll have to close my accounts because I'm not going to continue paying for a game I no longer care to play.

 

My suggestion (See my poll on these forums) was to create a Star Wars game similar to Neverwinter Nights 2. If we had such a game you would have people building online persistant worlds as well as hosting online battles between Jedi and Sith. Maybe there would be servers who actually have a jedi council and such. It would be great.

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Joukahainen: The reason for the Jedi problem/debate in SWG wasn't that too many Jedi would make the game not fun ... the problem was that the game takes place in a time where to the public, the Jedi are completely gone. The debate then raged on what is more important keeping the game historically accurate, or giving the players what they want. They chose neither. The anti-Jedi players still have to deal with the fact that Jedi are around, and those that want to play Jedi have to live on the game for six months to have a prayer of gaining. The idea was to keep them rare by taking the joy out of obtaining one, and in the end no one was really happy with the solution.

 

The idea for KOTOR: online as suggested was to take a proven game engine, which was based on a proven pen and paper game engine, and make it multi-player. MMO's were bred from pen and paper games being molded into the online community. The first MUD's were basically D&D as best as possible through code in always the same respawn world, where players could play there pen and paper text games with the world coming to life by the interaction of other online players.

 

KOTOR:online would not suffer from "too many Jedi" because as you have seen from the games Jedi are a lot more common in this time period. It has the potential ... it is just the direction they take it. If they make it a multi-player game evolved from the current game play of KOTOR with things like item customization, combat system, leveling, ability choices etc ... with the choice to take your character in several directions, maybe a Sith Academy as in KOTOR 1, or rebuilding of Jedi Enclave, with the ability to go help rebuild that planet (whose name escapes me at the moment) that was bombarded, perhaps play some Pazak against a live opponent, with direction of character ranging the elite Sith and Jedi classes from KOTOR 2, to advanced versions of smugglers, bounty hunters etc. (not all players would want to play sith/jedi)

 

Again I feel the potential exists for a wonderful multiplayer world, filled with gaming content, PVE, PVP, quests, loot, equipment, leveling, exploration, and advancement through the ranks of whatever proffesion you feel is best. All done in a world and time that has barely begun to be discovered.

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Actually, this reminds me of a Star Wars MUD my friends once told me about called ROTJ. Many races, many classes, many planets/locales, etc. Sounded interesting, but I dont remember ever trying it.

And I find it kind of funny

I find it kind of sad

The dreams in which I'm dying

Are the best I've ever had

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Joukahainen:  The reason for the Jedi problem/debate in SWG wasn't that too many Jedi would make the game not fun ... the problem was that the game takes place in a time where to the public, the Jedi are completely gone.  The debate then raged on what is more important keeping the game historically accurate, or giving the players what they want.  They chose neither.  The anti-Jedi players still have to deal with the fact that Jedi are around, and those that want to play Jedi have to live on the game for six months to have a prayer of gaining.  The idea was to keep them rare by taking the joy out of obtaining one, and in the end no one was really happy with the solution.

 

The idea for KOTOR: online as suggested was to take a proven game engine, which was based on a proven pen and paper game engine, and make it multi-player.  MMO's were bred from pen and paper games being molded into the online community.  The first MUD's were basically D&D as best as possible through code in always the same respawn world, where players could play there pen and paper text games with the world coming to life by the interaction of other online players.

 

KOTOR:online would not suffer from "too many Jedi" because as you have seen from the games Jedi are a lot more common in this time period.  It has the potential ... it is just the direction they take it.  If they make it a multi-player game evolved from the current game play of KOTOR with things like item customization, combat system, leveling, ability choices etc ... with the choice to take your character in several directions, maybe a Sith Academy as in KOTOR 1, or rebuilding of Jedi Enclave, with the ability to go help rebuild that planet (whose name escapes me at the moment) that was bombarded, perhaps play some Pazak against a live opponent, with direction of character ranging the elite Sith and Jedi classes from KOTOR 2, to advanced versions of smugglers, bounty hunters etc.  (not all players would want to play sith/jedi)

 

Again I feel the potential exists for a wonderful multiplayer world, filled with gaming content, PVE, PVP, quests, loot, equipment, leveling, exploration, and advancement through the ranks of whatever proffesion you feel is best.  All done in a world and time that has barely begun to be discovered.

 

I'm well aware of the history of SWG. Although there are a lot more jedi during the KOTOR time period... There still wasn't a "large population" of them. If there was a KOTOR online, it would be pretty much all jedi. I don't believe that many people would play smugglers or bounty hunters when they could play a Jedi.

 

The only way I feel such an idea would work is if there were a lot more smaller servers instead of a few large ones. That way the player population would be kept at a minimum and it would be more believeable. Then they could have a ranking system for the jedi with the high ranked jedi able to be put on the council. Of course there could only be one sith lord and his apprentice. All others should be fighting for power.

 

I personally would rather see a Star Wars d20 game made using the NWN2 engine/toolset/GM client. This would let us create our own online adventures and persistant worlds. Then everyone could play the way they want to.

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Joukahainen:  The reason for the Jedi problem/debate in SWG wasn't that too many Jedi would make the game not fun ... the problem was that the game takes place in a time where to the public, the Jedi are completely gone.  The debate then raged on what is more important keeping the game historically accurate, or giving the players what they want.  They chose neither.  The anti-Jedi players still have to deal with the fact that Jedi are around, and those that want to play Jedi have to live on the game for six months to have a prayer of gaining.  The idea was to keep them rare by taking the joy out of obtaining one, and in the end no one was really happy with the solution.

 

The idea for KOTOR: online as suggested was to take a proven game engine, which was based on a proven pen and paper game engine, and make it multi-player.  MMO's were bred from pen and paper games being molded into the online community.  The first MUD's were basically D&D as best as possible through code in always the same respawn world, where players could play there pen and paper text games with the world coming to life by the interaction of other online players.

 

KOTOR:online would not suffer from "too many Jedi" because as you have seen from the games Jedi are a lot more common in this time period.  It has the potential ... it is just the direction they take it.  If they make it a multi-player game evolved from the current game play of KOTOR with things like item customization, combat system, leveling, ability choices etc ... with the choice to take your character in several directions, maybe a Sith Academy as in KOTOR 1, or rebuilding of Jedi Enclave, with the ability to go help rebuild that planet (whose name escapes me at the moment) that was bombarded, perhaps play some Pazak against a live opponent, with direction of character ranging the elite Sith and Jedi classes from KOTOR 2, to advanced versions of smugglers, bounty hunters etc.  (not all players would want to play sith/jedi)

 

Again I feel the potential exists for a wonderful multiplayer world, filled with gaming content, PVE, PVP, quests, loot, equipment, leveling, exploration, and advancement through the ranks of whatever proffesion you feel is best.  All done in a world and time that has barely begun to be discovered.

 

I'm well aware of the history of SWG. Although there are a lot more jedi during the KOTOR time period... There still wasn't a "large population" of them. If there was a KOTOR online, it would be pretty much all jedi. I don't believe that many people would play smugglers or bounty hunters when they could play a Jedi.

 

The only way I feel such an idea would work is if there were a lot more smaller servers instead of a few large ones. That way the player population would be kept at a minimum and it would be more believeable. Then they could have a ranking system for the jedi with the high ranked jedi able to be put on the council. Of course there could only be one sith lord and his apprentice. All others should be fighting for power.

 

I personally would rather see a Star Wars d20 game made using the NWN2 engine/toolset/GM client. This would let us create our own online adventures and persistant worlds. Then everyone could play the way they want to.

 

Correct me if Im wrong but there is nothing stopping you from creating a D20 Star Wars game with NWN as it is now anyways.

 

Sure you would have to create skins and such but NWN is totally open that way anyways.

 

Just takes a little imagination and alot of effort!

 

FTR: I DONT want a multiplayer KotOR on a NWN system where players make the adventures. I stopped using my NWN because of stupid crappy homemade modules for NWN, dont need to see anouther franchice ruined.

 

I much prefer proffessionally made products.

 

As for to many jedi, once again lets take a statement, expand on it until it screams, then twist it some more for good measure, and then present it back as a reason something is bad.

 

Controling the amount of Jedi characters would be easy. Its already one or the few areas SWG is good in. Their FS trials are demanding, hard, and limit the number of jedis greatly (compared to old way they did it). Just make becoming a jedi very hard and time consumming and you limit the number of jedis in a game. Problem solved.

 

Alternative Jedi System

Make a player reach max level for game first as soldier/scout/what ever

Make a player complete 100 specific quests to become a padawen.

200-500 specific quests to become a jedi knight.

1000-2000 specific quests to become a master jedi, and you will NEVER run into a problem of having to many jedis.

Only those that truely want to be jedis would stay the path. Course those players that play 2 hours a week would complain about system but thats par for course in every game but WoW.

And unlike SWG you wouldnt be forced to do stuff you have no interest in (crafting and such)

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Joukahainen:  The reason for the Jedi problem/debate in SWG wasn't that too many Jedi would make the game not fun ... the problem was that the game takes place in a time where to the public, the Jedi are completely gone.  The debate then raged on what is more important keeping the game historically accurate, or giving the players what they want.  They chose neither.  The anti-Jedi players still have to deal with the fact that Jedi are around, and those that want to play Jedi have to live on the game for six months to have a prayer of gaining.  The idea was to keep them rare by taking the joy out of obtaining one, and in the end no one was really happy with the solution.

 

The idea for KOTOR: online as suggested was to take a proven game engine, which was based on a proven pen and paper game engine, and make it multi-player.  MMO's were bred from pen and paper games being molded into the online community.  The first MUD's were basically D&D as best as possible through code in always the same respawn world, where players could play there pen and paper text games with the world coming to life by the interaction of other online players.

 

KOTOR:online would not suffer from "too many Jedi" because as you have seen from the games Jedi are a lot more common in this time period.  It has the potential ... it is just the direction they take it.  If they make it a multi-player game evolved from the current game play of KOTOR with things like item customization, combat system, leveling, ability choices etc ... with the choice to take your character in several directions, maybe a Sith Academy as in KOTOR 1, or rebuilding of Jedi Enclave, with the ability to go help rebuild that planet (whose name escapes me at the moment) that was bombarded, perhaps play some Pazak against a live opponent, with direction of character ranging the elite Sith and Jedi classes from KOTOR 2, to advanced versions of smugglers, bounty hunters etc.  (not all players would want to play sith/jedi)

 

Again I feel the potential exists for a wonderful multiplayer world, filled with gaming content, PVE, PVP, quests, loot, equipment, leveling, exploration, and advancement through the ranks of whatever proffesion you feel is best.  All done in a world and time that has barely begun to be discovered.

 

I'm well aware of the history of SWG. Although there are a lot more jedi during the KOTOR time period... There still wasn't a "large population" of them. If there was a KOTOR online, it would be pretty much all jedi. I don't believe that many people would play smugglers or bounty hunters when they could play a Jedi.

 

The only way I feel such an idea would work is if there were a lot more smaller servers instead of a few large ones. That way the player population would be kept at a minimum and it would be more believeable. Then they could have a ranking system for the jedi with the high ranked jedi able to be put on the council. Of course there could only be one sith lord and his apprentice. All others should be fighting for power.

 

I personally would rather see a Star Wars d20 game made using the NWN2 engine/toolset/GM client. This would let us create our own online adventures and persistant worlds. Then everyone could play the way they want to.

 

Correct me if Im wrong but there is nothing stopping you from creating a D20 Star Wars game with NWN as it is now anyways.

 

Sure you would have to create skins and such but NWN is totally open that way anyways.

 

Just takes a little imagination and alot of effort!

 

FTR: I DONT want a multiplayer KotOR on a NWN system where players make the adventures. I stopped using my NWN because of stupid crappy homemade modules for NWN, dont need to see anouther franchice ruined.

 

I much prefer proffessionally made products.

 

As for to many jedi, once again lets take a statement, expand on it until it screams, then twist it some more for good measure, and then present it back as a reason something is bad.

 

Controling the amount of Jedi characters would be easy. Its already one or the few areas SWG is good in. Their FS trials are demanding, hard, and limit the number of jedis greatly (compared to old way they did it). Just make becoming a jedi very hard and time consumming and you limit the number of jedis in a game. Problem solved.

 

Alternative Jedi System

Make a player reach max level for game first as soldier/scout/what ever

Make a player complete 100 specific quests to become a padawen.

200-500 specific quests to become a jedi knight.

1000-2000 specific quests to become a master jedi, and you will NEVER run into a problem of having to many jedis.

Only those that truely want to be jedis would stay the path. Course those players that play 2 hours a week would complain about system but thats par for course in every game but WoW.

And unlike SWG you wouldnt be forced to do stuff you have no interest in (crafting and such)

 

There is nothing difficult about becoming a Jedi in SWG. It's a long trip, but not a difficult one. Then once you become a padawan you get to look forward to being one of the weakest people around. Ever try to kill a womp rat with a training saber? Your more than welcome to have at it. I'll pass.

 

You can control a jedi population. But, having to do huge amounts of repetetive quests is not fun. If people buy a game to play a jedi, they want to play a jedi, not do some obscene number of quests just to become one.

 

As far as making my own Star Wars game using NWN... I too want a professional product and I have neither the time or talent to do it on my own anyways. Besides, I bet that Lucas Arts would have something to say about creating a Star Wars game in such a way. Infact I think it may have been attempted once and Lucas Arts shut the person down.

 

Btw, you have to expect that there are going to be some crappy modules created for NWN when it's so easy to create them. I'd suggest going to a site that rates them and play only the highest rated modules. If you only want modules/games created by actual game companies then your limiting yourself to one or two games every couple of years. Obviously there was some good quality work coming out of the community because Bioware chose to hire some of those people to have them create some more.

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There is nothing difficult about becoming a Jedi in SWG.  It's a long trip, but not a difficult one.  Then once you become a padawan you get to look forward to being one of the weakest people around.  Ever try to kill a womp rat with a training saber?  Your more than welcome to have at it.  I'll pass.

 

Well we disagree there. I found some of the trials very difficult to do (just to open that force sencitive line). And with how badly bounty hunters exploit and cheat, leveling a padawen almost impossible once you have finally finished the trials and associated xp needed.

 

You can control a jedi population.  But, having to do huge amounts of repetetive quests is not fun.  If people buy a game to play a jedi, they want to play a jedi, not do some obscene number of quests just to become one.

 

who said anything about repetative quests? I sure didnt.

 

Just make the quests vary between single person and group needed, utilize all the planets available, and you have the foundation for 1000s of specific quests that relate to character.

 

No one said they would be repetative.

 

Also, Jedi is still the pinicale of Star Wars so to those that want to start as a jedi, to bad. There will be more then enough that tough it out. For those wanting instant gratification, they can go play WoW.

 

As far as making my own Star Wars game using NWN...  I too want a professional product and I have neither the time or talent to do it on my own anyways.  Besides, I bet that Lucas Arts would have something to say about creating a Star Wars game in such a way.  Infact I think it may have been attempted once and Lucas Arts shut the person down.

 

OK, now your making things up. Lucas couldnt do a damn thing if a player created a Star Wars module using NWN as long as person creating didnt try to charge for it. Might run into copyright laws but simply changing names would fix that.

 

Not a single thing Lucas could do to stop it.

 

As for time, yes it would take a long time to create using NWN tool set. But you would have what you wanted. If it matter enough someone will do it.

 

Btw, you have to expect that there are going to be some crappy modules created for NWN when it's so easy to create them.  I'd suggest going to a site that rates them and play only the highest rated modules.  If you only want modules/games created by actual game companies then your limiting yourself to one or two games every couple of years.  Obviously there was some good quality work coming out of the community because Bioware chose to hire some of those people to have them create some more.

 

True, but I did try some of the so called GREAT mods. They played amatuerish to me and I wasnt all that impressed.

 

Back (long time ago) Unlimited Adventures (the original concept for Biowares NWN) allowed players to make computer games in D&D setting (using gold box design tools), same problem happened. Player mods never are as fun or good as professional ones. Player mods lack the storylines, the enviroment richness, and really the balance as well. All the power to them for those that like, I dont! LOL, as for hiring folks. Ever think maybe Bioware saw some potential in those people and under the right supervison they could then (and only then) create worthwhile items. LOL, an amatuer production can show potential, but in the end its still amatuerish!

 

Ill guarentee you those people hired are not given free rein to create what ever they like. Seeing potential is a far cry away from saying those people making professional mods. Or at least I sure havent heard of any new hirlings being given carde blanch to do what they want.

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One other thing I'd like to say. Quests do tend to be repetitive in MMORPG's because they can only create new content so fast. That's why the missions in SWG are so generic. In WoW they aren't generic at all. But, then once you have done them they are finished and you move on to another area. Once you reach level 60 you pretty much run out of content. Your left with participating in raids and pvp. If you like to actually "role play" then you and friends can make up your own content.

 

With a small persistant world, like the ones created in NWN, new content can be added weekly because development time is far less. The hardest part is coming up with good storylines. But if your an open minded person there are plenty of people out there with good ideas. Plus, when you have a good GM running things, the story can change on the fly. You never know what players are going to do and if you remain flexible you can have a great time.

 

Bioware is also now creating "professionally made" modules for NWN. They can produce them faster than they can a new game because of the nature of NWN and it's toolset. They sell these modules for like $5-$10 or something. I'm not sure exactly what the cost is. I think MMORPG's could add new content quicker than most of them do. But, they very seldom do.

 

To me, the biggest downfall of MMORPG is the type of players that they often attract. There are a lot of people there who have nothing better to do than run around trying to ruin the fun for other people. WoW makes an effort to try and stop this. But, they still aren't very effective. SOE does almost nothing about it. In fact SOE recently announced that they were going to start selling in-game currency for real life money because they feel they can't stop comanies like IGE. What a cop out.

 

Btw, I didn't make anything up. I was told by someone on the Bioware forums that someone had tried to produce a Star Wars mod for NWN and basically got shut down. I don't know how true it is... I was just passing along what I was told. I do know that there is a Star Wars MOD out there for Homeworld. But, that doesn't really interest me.

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To me, the biggest downfall of MMORPG is the type of players that they often attract.  There are a lot of people there who have nothing better to do than run around trying to ruin the fun for other people.  WoW makes an effort to try and stop this.  But, they still aren't very effective.  SOE does almost nothing about it.  In fact SOE recently announced that they were going to start selling in-game currency for real life money because they feel they can't stop comanies like IGE.  What a cop out.

 

 

Ill leave rest of post alone as we argued it enough! :ermm:

 

This quoted section though annoy the hell out of me as its blatently false.

 

Are there bad players in MMORPGs? Sure are. And those same players play mulitplayer games online, post on forums, play NWN, ect.

 

No genre is free and clear of annoying or bad players.

 

In fact, at least MMORPGs have an advantage, dont like a person? /ignore them and you will never hear from them again. In todays MMORPGs with instanted dungeons and quests its not like they can follow you around and harrass you, since quests and such instanted they cant enter your dungeon anyways.

 

Unlike boards where no matter how hard you try to ignore a certain poster you will see their replies now and then.

 

Point is, using players attitudes is just a cop out because there is bad players everywhere.

 

Also, certain games attract certain players. You join WoW you KNOW your playing a game designed for early teens and battlenet kids. So you cant complain when you infact meet up with early teens and battlenet kiddies.

 

DAoC is designed for RVR (player vrs player) so you know the people that like confrontation are going to play that game.

 

EQ2 is designed for older gamers who like questing, so you know your going to meet older players who are interested in questing.

 

Each MMORPG out there is designed for a specific type of player, find the game/player type you interested in and you will have far more positive encounters then negative ones. And the same can not be said for message boards, multiplayer gamers, ect.

 

There is NO ONE type of player that plays MMORPGs. They are made up of many many types of all ages, attitudes, ect. To just lump them all into one catagory just shows your argueing about something you have no knowledge of.

 

What MMORPGs (plural because I have to assume you have played 3 or more for at least 1 year each to validate your excessive opinion about them) did you play? What type of players are your looking for?

 

PS: as for selling online stuff, I wont play a soe game because of it ever again, but I fail to see how a company choice reflects on the players? You do know prior to SOE announcement, EBAY and that japanesse company were doing the same thing for years now, dont you. SOE showed their greed, but how does that reflect on who is playing the game?

 

Are you assuming everyone playing is partaking in such activities? Thats the same as assuming every person that likes Star Wars lives in their mothers basement and has no job. Both completely and utterly false.

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To me, the biggest downfall of MMORPG is the type of players that they often attract.  There are a lot of people there who have nothing better to do than run around trying to ruin the fun for other people.  WoW makes an effort to try and stop this.  But, they still aren't very effective.  SOE does almost nothing about it.  In fact SOE recently announced that they were going to start selling in-game currency for real life money because they feel they can't stop comanies like IGE.  What a cop out.

 

 

Ill leave rest of post alone as we argued it enough! :wub:

 

This quoted section though annoy the hell out of me as its blatently false.

 

Are there bad players in MMORPGs? Sure are. And those same players play mulitplayer games online, post on forums, play NWN, ect.

 

No genre is free and clear of annoying or bad players.

 

In fact, at least MMORPGs have an advantage, dont like a person? /ignore them and you will never hear from them again. In todays MMORPGs with instanted dungeons and quests its not like they can follow you around and harrass you, since quests and such instanted they cant enter your dungeon anyways.

 

Unlike boards where no matter how hard you try to ignore a certain poster you will see their replies now and then.

 

Point is, using players attitudes is just a cop out because there is bad players everywhere.

 

Also, certain games attract certain players. You join WoW you KNOW your playing a game designed for early teens and battlenet kids. So you cant complain when you infact meet up with early teens and battlenet kiddies.

 

DAoC is designed for RVR (player vrs player) so you know the people that like confrontation are going to play that game.

 

EQ2 is designed for older gamers who like questing, so you know your going to meet older players who are interested in questing.

 

Each MMORPG out there is designed for a specific type of player, find the game/player type you interested in and you will have far more positive encounters then negative ones. And the same can not be said for message boards, multiplayer gamers, ect.

 

There is NO ONE type of player that plays MMORPGs. They are made up of many many types of all ages, attitudes, ect. To just lump them all into one catagory just shows your argueing about something you have no knowledge of.

 

What MMORPGs (plural because I have to assume you have played 3 or more for at least 1 year each to validate your excessive opinion about them) did you play? What type of players are your looking for?

 

PS: as for selling online stuff, I wont play a soe game because of it ever again, but I fail to see how a company choice reflects on the players? You do know prior to SOE announcement, EBAY and that japanesse company were doing the same thing for years now, dont you. SOE showed their greed, but how does that reflect on who is playing the game?

 

Are you assuming everyone playing is partaking in such activities? Thats the same as assuming every person that likes Star Wars lives in their mothers basement and has no job. Both completely and utterly false.

 

I agree that there are antagonistic players everywhere. I didn't say that ALL players in MMORPG's are like that. But, NWN allows you to block a players IP address, public CD key, and login account. So for them to come back to your server they would have to buy a new copy of the game.

 

I should say that I don't necessarily think that all MMORPG's are bad. I was just pointing out some of the negative aspects of them. I still currently have 3 MMORPG accounts. 2 in SWG and one in WoW. I really don't play on SWG much anymore because I just don't have much fun there anymore. It's really sad too because I'm a huge Star Wars fan and I had high hopes for that game. WoW is still pretty fun. I'm currently playing on a RP server and I find that not many players who want to cause trouble play on that type of server. I think they tend to be more apt to play on the PvP servers.

 

I guess the reason why I'm so pro NWN is that I have had far more fun playing on NWN servers than I have in MMORPG's. I've been playing computer games since the mid 80's and I've been playing online for well over 10 years and have played everything from Tele-arena, MUD's, and MMORPG's. I'm also well aware that different online games attract different types of people. The specific type of player that I was talking about is generally the Leet dude punk who will sit in the middle of a heavy populated area spamming some sort of particle effect in order to try and lag everyone. Or maybe he just follows someone around in order to kill steal. Since you have played all those games I'm sure you know who I'm talking about.

 

MMORPG's are going to continue to have problems with people selling items and currency online as well as just trying to cause trouble. It is nearly impossible to effectively police servers with such big populations. Maybe someday they will come up with a solution, but I doubt it will be anytime soon.

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It might be interesting to see this idea implemented. Perhaps during the Mandalorian wars.

 

But I doubt it would be done well. It looks like DnD online might be up my alley, but I'm sure the community at large will be just as roleplay-clueless and level hungry as any other. Which really breaks the fourth wall for me, and makes me lose interest. I mean, what REAL social interaction can there be in such a setting that's focused on something so basic? Much as WoW is more fun than many others, it's still number crunching and looting. Endless amounts of it. And stripping parties. Just like Galaxies. I mean, honestly, the Entertainer class? It's amusing, but if they do another star wars MMO, I'd really like to see something remarkably different, and that really feels like star wars. Which is highly unlikely, if they stick to any of the tenets of modern MMo's.

 

So I guess I really prefer Star Wars as a sandbox for storytelling.

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I agree that there are antagonistic players everywhere.  I didn't say that ALL players in MMORPG's are like that.  But, NWN allows you to block a players IP address, public CD key, and login account.  So for them to come back to your server they would have to buy a new copy of the game.

 

I should say that I don't necessarily think that all MMORPG's are bad.  I was just pointing out some of the negative aspects of them.  I still currently have 3 MMORPG accounts.  2 in SWG and one in WoW.  I really don't play on SWG much anymore because I just don't have much fun there anymore.  It's really sad too because I'm a huge Star Wars fan and I had high hopes for that game.  WoW is still pretty fun.  I'm currently playing on a RP server and I find that not many players who want to cause trouble play on that type of server.  I think they tend to be more apt to play on the PvP servers.

 

I guess the reason why I'm so pro NWN is that I have had far more fun playing on NWN servers than I have in MMORPG's.  I've been playing computer games since the mid 80's and I've been playing online for well over 10 years and have played everything from Tele-arena, MUD's, and MMORPG's.  I'm also well aware that different online games attract different types of people.  The specific type of player that I was talking about is generally the Leet dude punk who will sit in the middle of a heavy populated area spamming some sort of particle effect in order to try and lag everyone.  Or maybe he just follows someone around in order to kill steal.  Since you have played all those games I'm sure you know who I'm talking about.

 

MMORPG's are going to continue to have problems with people selling items and currency online as well as just trying to cause trouble.  It is nearly impossible to effectively police servers with such big populations.  Maybe someday they will come up with a solution, but I doubt it will be anytime soon.

 

 

See Jouk, right there is the contradiction tho.

 

How do you find out someone in NWN is a bad player? Obviously either someone warns you or you have a problem with said player first hand. So you block IP.

 

How do you find out someone in a MMORPG is a bad player? Either someone tells you or you have a problem with said player first hand. So you /ignore them.

 

Problem solved in both cases, so really both genres equal in terms. However in NWN a person can change their IP, in MMORPGs they cant remove themselves from your ignore list. So really, if you get right down to it, MMORPG way is the more efficent solution as it stands right now.

 

Also, welp there is your problem right there. Your playing SWG and WoW. SWG is the worst MMORPG out there in many ways. They have a huge amount of potential and for what ever reason SOE refuses to live up to the potential. I had SWG accounts as well in the past. Its just a terrible game from top to bottom. SOE listens to the wrong people each and every time and rather then become more appealing they refuse to fix areas of the game that would improve the game. Its just terrible. Its like saying you hated Halo (I did but beside point) because you played the Original Castle Wolfenstien. SWG is not remotely similiar to any other MMORPG out there. In terms of players, content, or developing company. I mean its no secret and widely known that any SOE programmers with any talent are put on EQ and EQ2, SOE sends the bottom of the bucket to work on SWG.

 

And WoW. Tell me, would you write a review about a 5 Star Restraunt because you ate at McDonalds? Would you claim to be university educated because you passed grade 1? Because thats exactly what you are doing when you hate MMORPGs because you play WoW. WoW is nothing more then a MMORPG with training wheels. Any experienced MMORPG player can max out in WoW is 2 weeks and literally run out of new content to play in 2 months. WoW was designed for Battlenet kiddies and thats where the bulk of the subscriptions come from. So of course your meeting bad people there, look at who the game was designed for! Sorry, but you are getting exactly what you asked for by playing WoW. You cant really complain about it when you get the kind of gaming experience the product is designed for.

 

My advice to you is start signing up for some betas out there. That way you will try products for free and will see a HUGE difference in the experience you have gotten so far. The mass majority of MMORPGs out there do NOT try for the Battlenet kiddies as customers and do NOT treat their products as disowned redheaded step children.

 

Honestly Jour, right now you are doing what I could be accused of if I only played Unlimited Adventures and then wrote a review about NWN from that experience. Or as I said above, you ate at McDonalds and wrote a review above a 5 Star Restraunt.

 

Sadly you have scrapped the bottom of the Barrel with the 2 MMORPGs you choose, now step up and try quality MMORPGs when they first starting. Many MMORPGs are getting close to having alpha and beta tests, give them a try and you will see a dramatic DRAMATIC difference in quality, maturity, support, design, community, and pretty much every area that is important (and lacking in SWG and WoW).

 

Dungeons and Dragons Online , Imperator (new product in 2006 by Mythic), Vanguard, ect come to mind.

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I agree that there are antagonistic players everywhere.  I didn't say that ALL players in MMORPG's are like that.  But, NWN allows you to block a players IP address, public CD key, and login account.  So for them to come back to your server they would have to buy a new copy of the game.

 

I should say that I don't necessarily think that all MMORPG's are bad.  I was just pointing out some of the negative aspects of them.  I still currently have 3 MMORPG accounts.  2 in SWG and one in WoW.  I really don't play on SWG much anymore because I just don't have much fun there anymore.  It's really sad too because I'm a huge Star Wars fan and I had high hopes for that game.  WoW is still pretty fun.  I'm currently playing on a RP server and I find that not many players who want to cause trouble play on that type of server.  I think they tend to be more apt to play on the PvP servers.

 

I guess the reason why I'm so pro NWN is that I have had far more fun playing on NWN servers than I have in MMORPG's.  I've been playing computer games since the mid 80's and I've been playing online for well over 10 years and have played everything from Tele-arena, MUD's, and MMORPG's.  I'm also well aware that different online games attract different types of people.  The specific type of player that I was talking about is generally the Leet dude punk who will sit in the middle of a heavy populated area spamming some sort of particle effect in order to try and lag everyone.  Or maybe he just follows someone around in order to kill steal.  Since you have played all those games I'm sure you know who I'm talking about.

 

MMORPG's are going to continue to have problems with people selling items and currency online as well as just trying to cause trouble.  It is nearly impossible to effectively police servers with such big populations.  Maybe someday they will come up with a solution, but I doubt it will be anytime soon.

 

 

See Jouk, right there is the contradiction tho.

 

How do you find out someone in NWN is a bad player? Obviously either someone warns you or you have a problem with said player first hand. So you block IP.

 

How do you find out someone in a MMORPG is a bad player? Either someone tells you or you have a problem with said player first hand. So you /ignore them.

 

Problem solved in both cases, so really both genres equal in terms. However in NWN a person can change their IP, in MMORPGs they cant remove themselves from your ignore list. So really, if you get right down to it, MMORPG way is the more efficent solution as it stands right now.

 

Also, welp there is your problem right there. Your playing SWG and WoW. SWG is the worst MMORPG out there in many ways. They have a huge amount of potential and for what ever reason SOE refuses to live up to the potential. I had SWG accounts as well in the past. Its just a terrible game from top to bottom. SOE listens to the wrong people each and every time and rather then become more appealing they refuse to fix areas of the game that would improve the game. Its just terrible. Its like saying you hated Halo (I did but beside point) because you played the Original Castle Wolfenstien. SWG is not remotely similiar to any other MMORPG out there. In terms of players, content, or developing company. I mean its no secret and widely known that any SOE programmers with any talent are put on EQ and EQ2, SOE sends the bottom of the bucket to work on SWG.

 

And WoW. Tell me, would you write a review about a 5 Star Restraunt because you ate at McDonalds? Would you claim to be university educated because you passed grade 1? Because thats exactly what you are doing when you hate MMORPGs because you play WoW. WoW is nothing more then a MMORPG with training wheels. Any experienced MMORPG player can max out in WoW is 2 weeks and literally run out of new content to play in 2 months. WoW was designed for Battlenet kiddies and thats where the bulk of the subscriptions come from. So of course your meeting bad people there, look at who the game was designed for! Sorry, but you are getting exactly what you asked for by playing WoW. You cant really complain about it when you get the kind of gaming experience the product is designed for.

 

My advice to you is start signing up for some betas out there. That way you will try products for free and will see a HUGE difference in the experience you have gotten so far. The mass majority of MMORPGs out there do NOT try for the Battlenet kiddies as customers and do NOT treat their products as disowned redheaded step children.

 

Honestly Jour, right now you are doing what I could be accused of if I only played Unlimited Adventures and then wrote a review about NWN from that experience. Or as I said above, you ate at McDonalds and wrote a review above a 5 Star Restraunt.

 

Sadly you have scrapped the bottom of the Barrel with the 2 MMORPGs you choose, now step up and try quality MMORPGs when they first starting. Many MMORPGs are getting close to having alpha and beta tests, give them a try and you will see a dramatic DRAMATIC difference in quality, maturity, support, design, community, and pretty much every area that is important (and lacking in SWG and WoW).

 

Dungeons and Dragons Online , Imperator (new product in 2006 by Mythic), Vanguard, ect come to mind.

 

Actually, in every single one of your replies to me you've done nothing but make assumptions. I said WoW and SWG are the two MMORPG's that I currently have accounts with. I never said they were the only ones I've played. I've gotten in on the beta on pretty much every MMORPG that's been released in the last couple of years. Except Final Fantasy. The only reason I still have a SWG account is because I kept holding out hope that SOE would pull their heads out and fix it. lol. The reason I currently still have a WoW account is that it was the most recent one I tried. I stayed away from WoW at first because I didn't care much for the cartoony graphics. I just recently decided to give it a try and actually found it's light game play somewhat refreshing. But, I imagine that will only last for so long.

 

Btw, you obviously didn't read what I said about blocking people in NWN either. If your public CD key is banned on a server, the only way you can get back on that server is to go out and buy a new copy of the game. Which, I assume would also be a work around for a MMORPG as well since you would have a new account.

 

I'm through arguing with you because all you are doing is reading a line or two of my posts and assuming the rest.

 

Good day.

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bad idea, cause it takes time away from working on the third installment

 

i don't like "interludes" when it comes to making a series of games, like warcraft

 

don't get me wrong, WOW is a great game but i'd have preferred if they continued with the story and made another game in the proper series instead of milking the cash cow

 

plus if the resultant KOTOR mmorpg is anything like Galaxies then you can count me out

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Yann, you obviously did not even read all the posts. Granted there has been a lot of them ... but really your comments have little to do with the points made.

 

First there is no reason that making a KOTOR mmo would delay the release of the third installment in the series if there is one.

 

another game in the proper series??? that doesn't even make sense. What is the proper series? It's not about milking a cash cow ... it's about taking a fun game engine (my opinion) and making it multi-player. It's about using the setting of the old republic for limitless new content to fill an online community.

 

if the resultant game is like galaxies??? are you unable to read??? I would say about sixteen times the point was made that the game should NOT be like galaxies ... it should be LIKE KOTOR ... and for several reasons.

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Yann, you obviously did not even read all the posts.  Granted there has been a lot of them ... but really your comments have little to do with the points made.

 

First there is no reason that making a KOTOR mmo would delay the release of the third installment in the series if there is one.

 

another game in the proper series??? that doesn't even make sense.  What is the proper series?  It's not about milking a cash cow ... it's about taking a fun game engine (my opinion) and making it multi-player.  It's about using the setting of the old republic for limitless new content to fill an online community.

 

if the resultant game is like galaxies??? are you unable to read??? I would say about sixteen times the point was made that the game should NOT be like galaxies ... it should be LIKE KOTOR ... and for several reasons.

 

i was responding to your original post, when i feel the need to antagonise over long posts made by people with too much time on their hands then i'll do so

 

also, explain how an mmorpg wouldn't delay another game that continues the story?

 

Presumably they'd want the same people who worked on TSL, therefore their talents would be diverted from making the third installment

 

and in case you didn't notice, mmorpgs are all the rage these days, they are an easy way to get longevity and more cash out of game from overcharged monthly subscriptions with little extra effort

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I believe that setting SWG during such a familiar time period, has hurt the credibility of the game. There's tons of Jedi running around when there are only supposed to be a few. Perhaps if they had set it 10,000 years before the Empire, it would have been more plausible. Of course all the technology would be the same as the movies. (as in KOTOR)

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I believe that setting SWG during such a familiar time period, has hurt the credibility of the game.  There's tons of Jedi running around when there are only supposed to be a few.  Perhaps if they had set it 10,000 years before the Empire, it would have been more plausible.  Of course all the technology would be the same as the movies.  (as in KOTOR)

 

While I wont argue that the time period SWG used has hurt the game (as that time era is to stringent and really less exciting then the KotOR time frames) I, having played SWG on 2 different occations now for over 6 month periods each time, really get bored with the false assumptions that jedis are so common and hurt the game.

 

Lets go over the actual facts on what hurts SWG:

 

1) Time Frame. Its boring to be rather blunt. The time frame is the same one used in ANH for the most part and it lacks the factions needed to create a truely engrossing game. All there is (for players) is rebel or Imperial. KotOR time frame adds a much greater amount of feasible factions so you are not forced into one or the other.

 

2) Classes. One of the greatest draw backs to SWG is 2 specific classes.

 

A) Creature Handlers: This class plays NO PART in Star Wars enviroment and really is only apart of the game because it was a favorite of the designers from UO. It comes as no surprise that its also a GREATLY overpowered class because of that fact.

 

B) Bounty Hunters: While people will argue (and rightfully to some extent) Bounty Hunters do play a great part in Star Wars history, the fact of the matter is BHs in SWG are used ONLY as a excuse to FORCE pvp on unwilling players. Currently BHs reknown for useing a exploit to get newbie padawens listed on the BH terminals so they can then use their BHs to get the bounty (even though newbie padawens suffer a HUGE xp loss and are as powerful as a newly rolled character...IE: no challenge what so ever). With out a complete redrafting of Bounty hunters classes, they will remain the number 1 class that ruins SWG for players.

 

Should also be noted that BHs almost NEVER attack a Jedi Knight or higher because there is a very good chance the Jedi Knight will win (as one would expect) so in effect all the BH class allows is PKING of newbies. Just like those idiots that farm newbie zones in all PK games/shards. It not that its a challenge (its not) its just the fact they can ruin someone elses day by constantly farming them over and over with ZERO chance of being defeated themselves. That folks is NOT a good design for a class or a game EVER! Every game to date that has gone with this rule set has failed and either gone bankrupt or changed their rules to allow save adventureing zones. Every game that supports all PK shards/worlds/servers has close to the lowest population (or actual lowest population) for that shard/world/server.

 

That also doesnt even start to address the problems SWG encounters from having a class that is allowed to PK unwilling or unagreeing players. Forced PvP is proven (unconsentual pvp) to be the biggest game breaker for a MMORPG through out the entire history of MMORPGs. Anyone that argues that FACT is either point blank lieing or totally and completely uninformed regarding the issue. The history doesnt lie and is there for anyone who spends the moments needed to understand the issue.

 

3) Broken Economy. SWG tried, and failed, to go with a player run economy where the players create EVERYTHING. This failed as it created such a high cost enviroment that new players will never be able to afford goods and old players will always have the advantage in regards to equipment, be it armor, speeders, weapons, what ever. Their attempts just outright failed.

 

4) Lack of quests. SWG has missions that are generic and uninteresting. The NPC quests you can get are identical copies of the different missions and fail to create any type of story, enviroment, or interest. Also terminal missions rewards are much better then the existing quests meaning the only other reason (better loot) is non existant as well.

 

5) Time sinks. Many players in EQ, DAoC, AC, Lineage, ect complain about leveling time sinks yet ALL of those games pale in comparrison to the unneded/unwanted/boring time sinks SWG makes you do. There leveling system while intellegently hidden is just your basic leveling system found in any other game really. The leveling itself tho is 100 times more boring. Its just a bad system over all. But so was Ultima Onlines and since SWG is nothing more then UO enhanced and with a Star Wars shell, its no great surprise its bad.

 

I could go on into lag issues caused by people leaving a barker droid in a city causeing you lag as they shout the same thing over and over annoying people. How jumbled up the party system is in game, how speeders HUGELY hurt the game, and more. All these issues are major things that break SWG.

 

How many jedi there are just isnt even in the top ten. Its just a exagerated excused used by those that have never played the game or failed to acheive a jedi of their own in the game. For as much as its complained about one would think its a HUGE issue BUT ITS NOT.

 

SWG has a ton of problems that a KotOR MMORPG could address easily and fairly (frankly other then the time era setting, SOE could (if they wanted to) could also address).

 

Jedi are just quite frankly not one of those issues and anyone with ANY knowledge of MMORPGs in general and SWG in specific would know that.

 

Sorry for rant but tired of reading stupid stuff like this. Its stupid posts like this (saying to many Jedi) that has caused many of the problems in SWG as SOE has taken them serious over the years and made changes only to see their subscription rate drop lower and lower and lower (The jedi Revamp made it actually harder to get a jedi then before and it came as no surprise to experienced players that it failed to stop the bleeding regarding cancelled accounts). Just like this lastest combat upgrade change. It has failed to attract people back because it only addressed problems from a bias area and NOT from those that posted why they were leaving. If SOE spent more time reading why people leave rather then listening to those only interested in improving game for themselves they would be in alot better condition.

 

No surprise that of those leaving game, to many jedi never seems to get mentioned EVER! (and why should it when in a 8 hour period of playing you "MIGHT" see 2 maybe 3 jedis total anyways, and they never interacting with you anyways usually as jedi take a xp penalty for grouping with non jedi) Its just a urban legend excuse. Just like those that say SWG is EQ in space. If those that said that actually played SWG and EQ they would know the two games are about as opposite as 2 games can be on every aspect.

 

Now, lets look at what a KotOR MMORPG (useing same style engine as offline games ) could achieve right outta the box.

 

1) Grouping. The engine and design used in KotOR 1 and 2 makes grouping and targeting much freindlier then the style SWG uses. Since FFXI uses a similiar engine this is already PROVEN FACT. Remember, im not speaking about the forced grouping design of FFXI but about grouping in general.

 

2) Time Frame. Being the Old Republic, this means a MMORPG could have different factions a person could join. Be it the republic, the sith, czerka, trade federation, Hutts, what ever. Since there really is no great one all mighty commander (republic there but its reach is short at best). Players could join any of these factions and quest and adventure based on their choices. Or they could join none and hire themselves out on a job to job status. Imagine going through the Sith Academy trials to become a sith. Or jedi trials on Corosaunt or Dant to become a jedi. The options are endless.

 

3) More Jedi. I say this just because some people like to bitch and moan that ANH era isnt suppose to have jedi. Honestly its just a case for suspended disbelief and anyone with common sence knows that but what ever. Use this time frame and people can stop nit picking the most literal reading of the setting. Yes there is such a thing as being totally anal and this topic is one of them IMO!

 

What the "*whaaaa* there to many jedi *whaaa*" posters fail to realise is JEDI SELL! Its the jedi that are the reason the mass majority try Star Wars. Remove the jedi and you remove its NUMBER ONE selling point.

 

4) Economy. Having seen the negative effects in DAoC and SWG they could avoid totally player run economies (all items worth anything created by players) and go back to a EQ style (but instanced to avoid the wait times and respawns that caused problems in EQ) of questing for best items.

 

5) PVP Entire planets that are pro pvp. Planets like Malacor V could be pvp enabled where as planets like Dantoine are not. This allows for the faction vers faction much like you find in DAoCs RvR. You know adventureing on Malacor V you are agreeing to pvp there for eliminating the unconsentual pvp that ruins pvp in many games. The could place temples and such on Malacor that would give specific factions and/or guilds/alliances special SMALL bonuses in pvp (sorta like holding a Relic did in DAoC). While the majority of planets would be totally non pvp, they could have outter rim planets that are pro pvp. Those interested in pvp could go there, those not could stay in known space.

 

6) Quests!!!!!! Star Wars should be about quests in my opinion. Thats all the off line games are, stories being told inside a setting. This is where SWG fails. Goto the Ewok villiages, not a single quest to be found. When you do find a quest its boring, its kill off a set number of whatever of find and escort a npc back. Quest should be much more involved and tell a story.

 

7) Cut Screens. FFXI proved that cutscreens DO WORK in a MMORPG. So we could have the same thing in a KotOR MMORPG which would greatly improve the enviroment of the quest/mission your on.

 

Fact is, Star Wars hasnt been done correctly yet. For as many good things as SWG has (housing is great but overdone like UO), its negatives far outweight the positives. A KotOR MMORPG could fix all those things and create a great experience for all players.

 

There truely is no need for a nwn style game because its already been done. Its called NWN and with a little work and imagination you could easily create a Star Wars module useing the NWN tool set. There is NO copyright laws stopping you, onlything stoping you is YOUR imagination and dedication. If you dont have time to make a Star Wars module from the existing program, you wont have time to create a star wars module if they released the game specifically for star wars anyways. Either way alot of programing will be required.

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KoTOR is meant to capture the cinematic nature of Star Wars. MMORPGs are anti-cinematic. They are about level grinding, resource accumulation and PvP gameplay.

 

SWG has many flaws, but perhaps the biggest is that it doesn't feel like Star Wars.

 

Where are the characters, story archs, and epic sweeping scores? I want a John Williams score accompanying a grandiose storyline.

 

You'll never see that in a MMoRPG.

 

I think there could be a multiplay KoTOR in the fashion that there was multiplayer Baldur's Gate. But even then the story needs to be party-centric rather than chosen-one centric, in my opinion.

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KoTOR is meant to capture the cinematic nature of Star Wars.  MMORPGs are anti-cinematic.  They are about level grinding, resource accumulation and PvP gameplay.

 

SWG has many flaws, but perhaps the biggest is that it doesn't feel like Star Wars.

 

Where are the characters, story archs, and epic sweeping scores?  I want a John Williams score accompanying a grandiose storyline.

 

You'll never see that in a MMoRPG.

 

I think there could be a multiplay KoTOR in the fashion that there was multiplayer Baldur's Gate.  But even then the story needs to be party-centric rather than chosen-one centric, in my opinion.

 

But Ender, you do the fatal flaw.

 

You say what MMORPGs are and NOT what they could be.

 

There is ABSOLUTELY nothing stopping a developer from designing a MMORPG with what you asked for.

 

You can have the soundtracks, you can have the grandiose storyline, story archs characters in MMORPGs. Its ALL been done already.

 

Just developers thus far are to lazy or ignorant to the concepts to add them.

 

FFXI had the cut screens

EQ had the grandiose storyline (you should check out their giants quest, 10 stages of fantastic story and adventure)

There has been a MMORPG that allowed you to hire NPC character to travel with you.

Rather then one story arch you have have multiple story archs in MMORPGs.

 

And yes you can add pvp, crafting, leveling and all that as well.

 

Point is, you CAN have it all in a MMORPG. Just companies like Blizzard and SOE (most blatent companies as of late) refuse to give what the communities have been asking for and force THEIR versions on you.

 

Just because its been done wrong thus far doesnt mean it cant be done RIGHT in the future!

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I believe that setting SWG during such a familiar time period, has hurt the credibility of the game.  There's tons of Jedi running around when there are only supposed to be a few.  Perhaps if they had set it 10,000 years before the Empire, it would have been more plausible.  Of course all the technology would be the same as the movies.  (as in KOTOR)

 

While I wont argue that the time period SWG used has hurt the game (as that time era is to stringent and really less exciting then the KotOR time frames) I, having played SWG on 2 different occations now for over 6 month periods each time, really get bored with the false assumptions that jedis are so common and hurt the game.

 

Lets go over the actual facts on what hurts SWG:

 

1) Time Frame. Its boring to be rather blunt. The time frame is the same one used in ANH for the most part and it lacks the factions needed to create a truely engrossing game. All there is (for players) is rebel or Imperial. KotOR time frame adds a much greater amount of feasible factions so you are not forced into one or the other.

 

2) Classes. One of the greatest draw backs to SWG is 2 specific classes.

 

A) Creature Handlers: This class plays NO PART in Star Wars enviroment and really is only apart of the game because it was a favorite of the designers from UO. It comes as no surprise that its also a GREATLY overpowered class because of that fact.

 

B) Bounty Hunters: While people will argue (and rightfully to some extent) Bounty Hunters do play a great part in Star Wars history, the fact of the matter is BHs in SWG are used ONLY as a excuse to FORCE pvp on unwilling players. Currently BHs reknown for useing a exploit to get newbie padawens listed on the BH terminals so they can then use their BHs to get the bounty (even though newbie padawens suffer a HUGE xp loss and are as powerful as a newly rolled character...IE: no challenge what so ever). With out a complete redrafting of Bounty hunters classes, they will remain the number 1 class that ruins SWG for players.

 

Should also be noted that BHs almost NEVER attack a Jedi Knight or higher because there is a very good chance the Jedi Knight will win (as one would expect) so in effect all the BH class allows is PKING of newbies. Just like those idiots that farm newbie zones in all PK games/shards. It not that its a challenge (its not) its just the fact they can ruin someone elses day by constantly farming them over and over with ZERO chance of being defeated themselves. That folks is NOT a good design for a class or a game EVER! Every game to date that has gone with this rule set has failed and either gone bankrupt or changed their rules to allow save adventureing zones. Every game that supports all PK shards/worlds/servers has close to the lowest population (or actual lowest population) for that shard/world/server.

 

That also doesnt even start to address the problems SWG encounters from having a class that is allowed to PK unwilling or unagreeing players. Forced PvP is proven (unconsentual pvp) to be the biggest game breaker for a MMORPG through out the entire history of MMORPGs. Anyone that argues that FACT is either point blank lieing or totally and completely uninformed regarding the issue. The history doesnt lie and is there for anyone who spends the moments needed to understand the issue.

 

3) Broken Economy. SWG tried, and failed, to go with a player run economy where the players create EVERYTHING. This failed as it created such a high cost enviroment that new players will never be able to afford goods and old players will always have the advantage in regards to equipment, be it armor, speeders, weapons, what ever. Their attempts just outright failed.

 

4) Lack of quests. SWG has missions that are generic and uninteresting. The NPC quests you can get are identical copies of the different missions and fail to create any type of story, enviroment, or interest. Also terminal missions rewards are much better then the existing quests meaning the only other reason (better loot) is non existant as well.

 

5) Time sinks. Many players in EQ, DAoC, AC, Lineage, ect complain about leveling time sinks yet ALL of those games pale in comparrison to the unneded/unwanted/boring time sinks SWG makes you do. There leveling system while intellegently hidden is just your basic leveling system found in any other game really. The leveling itself tho is 100 times more boring. Its just a bad system over all. But so was Ultima Onlines and since SWG is nothing more then UO enhanced and with a Star Wars shell, its no great surprise its bad.

 

I could go on into lag issues caused by people leaving a barker droid in a city causeing you lag as they shout the same thing over and over annoying people. How jumbled up the party system is in game, how speeders HUGELY hurt the game, and more. All these issues are major things that break SWG.

 

How many jedi there are just isnt even in the top ten. Its just a exagerated excused used by those that have never played the game or failed to acheive a jedi of their own in the game. For as much as its complained about one would think its a HUGE issue BUT ITS NOT.

 

SWG has a ton of problems that a KotOR MMORPG could address easily and fairly (frankly other then the time era setting, SOE could (if they wanted to) could also address).

 

Jedi are just quite frankly not one of those issues and anyone with ANY knowledge of MMORPGs in general and SWG in specific would know that.

 

Sorry for rant but tired of reading stupid stuff like this. Its stupid posts like this (saying to many Jedi) that has caused many of the problems in SWG as SOE has taken them serious over the years and made changes only to see their subscription rate drop lower and lower and lower (The jedi Revamp made it actually harder to get a jedi then before and it came as no surprise to experienced players that it failed to stop the bleeding regarding cancelled accounts). Just like this lastest combat upgrade change. It has failed to attract people back because it only addressed problems from a bias area and NOT from those that posted why they were leaving. If SOE spent more time reading why people leave rather then listening to those only interested in improving game for themselves they would be in alot better condition.

 

No surprise that of those leaving game, to many jedi never seems to get mentioned EVER! (and why should it when in a 8 hour period of playing you "MIGHT" see 2 maybe 3 jedis total anyways, and they never interacting with you anyways usually as jedi take a xp penalty for grouping with non jedi) Its just a urban legend excuse. Just like those that say SWG is EQ in space. If those that said that actually played SWG and EQ they would know the two games are about as opposite as 2 games can be on every aspect.

 

Now, lets look at what a KotOR MMORPG (useing same style engine as offline games ) could achieve right outta the box.

 

1) Grouping. The engine and design used in KotOR 1 and 2 makes grouping and targeting much freindlier then the style SWG uses. Since FFXI uses a similiar engine this is already PROVEN FACT. Remember, im not speaking about the forced grouping design of FFXI but about grouping in general.

 

2) Time Frame. Being the Old Republic, this means a MMORPG could have different factions a person could join. Be it the republic, the sith, czerka, trade federation, Hutts, what ever. Since there really is no great one all mighty commander (republic there but its reach is short at best). Players could join any of these factions and quest and adventure based on their choices. Or they could join none and hire themselves out on a job to job status. Imagine going through the Sith Academy trials to become a sith. Or jedi trials on Corosaunt or Dant to become a jedi. The options are endless.

 

3) More Jedi. I say this just because some people like to bitch and moan that ANH era isnt suppose to have jedi. Honestly its just a case for suspended disbelief and anyone with common sence knows that but what ever. Use this time frame and people can stop nit picking the most literal reading of the setting. Yes there is such a thing as being totally anal and this topic is one of them IMO!

 

What the "*whaaaa* there to many jedi *whaaa*" posters fail to realise is JEDI SELL! Its the jedi that are the reason the mass majority try Star Wars. Remove the jedi and you remove its NUMBER ONE selling point.

 

4) Economy. Having seen the negative effects in DAoC and SWG they could avoid totally player run economies (all items worth anything created by players) and go back to a EQ style (but instanced to avoid the wait times and respawns that caused problems in EQ) of questing for best items.

 

5) PVP Entire planets that are pro pvp. Planets like Malacor V could be pvp enabled where as planets like Dantoine are not. This allows for the faction vers faction much like you find in DAoCs RvR. You know adventureing on Malacor V you are agreeing to pvp there for eliminating the unconsentual pvp that ruins pvp in many games. The could place temples and such on Malacor that would give specific factions and/or guilds/alliances special SMALL bonuses in pvp (sorta like holding a Relic did in DAoC). While the majority of planets would be totally non pvp, they could have outter rim planets that are pro pvp. Those interested in pvp could go there, those not could stay in known space.

 

6) Quests!!!!!! Star Wars should be about quests in my opinion. Thats all the off line games are, stories being told inside a setting. This is where SWG fails. Goto the Ewok villiages, not a single quest to be found. When you do find a quest its boring, its kill off a set number of whatever of find and escort a npc back. Quest should be much more involved and tell a story.

 

7) Cut Screens. FFXI proved that cutscreens DO WORK in a MMORPG. So we could have the same thing in a KotOR MMORPG which would greatly improve the enviroment of the quest/mission your on.

 

Fact is, Star Wars hasnt been done correctly yet. For as many good things as SWG has (housing is great but overdone like UO), its negatives far outweight the positives. A KotOR MMORPG could fix all those things and create a great experience for all players.

 

 

ditto ... ditto ... ditto

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But Ender, you do the fatal flaw.

I disagree. Richard Garriot was one of the premier RPG designers, and Ultima Online failed to deliver a true RPG experience.

 

Most MMO designers will tell you that they are trying to capture the single-player RPG experience, in adding a story with depth. But it's hard to script a story for 100,000 players.

 

I was a story-teller in an international LARP game with thousands of players. Running a table-top game for your friends is far easier than crafting a story for a game where 80 players might show up, and you don't know what characters will be in play.

 

MMOs face the same problem on a bigger scale.

 

In KOTOR, you were Revan. You were the main character, and you were at the center of the action. Games like the Matrix Online are trying to allow players to get enough fame and reknown to eventually impact major plots in the Matrix universe. But single players in a game that scale will likely never get the same experience as they did when they played a single player game like KOTOR.

 

MMOs have their strengths, and their weaknesses. I'm sure you can make interesting quests, and do more to improve MMOs, but I don't think an MMO will ever capture the true cinematic Star Wars experience.

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But Ender, you do the fatal flaw.

I disagree. Richard Garriot was one of the premier RPG designers, and Ultima Online failed to deliver a true RPG experience.

 

Most MMO designers will tell you that they are trying to capture the single-player RPG experience, in adding a story with depth. But it's hard to script a story for 100,000 players.

 

I was a story-teller in an international LARP game with thousands of players. Running a table-top game for your friends is far easier than crafting a story for a game where 80 players might show up, and you don't know what characters will be in play.

 

MMOs face the same problem on a bigger scale.

 

In KOTOR, you were Revan. You were the main character, and you were at the center of the action. Games like the Matrix Online are trying to allow players to get enough fame and reknown to eventually impact major plots in the Matrix universe. But single players in a game that scale will likely never get the same experience as they did when they played a single player game like KOTOR.

 

MMOs have their strengths, and their weaknesses. I'm sure you can make interesting quests, and do more to improve MMOs, but I don't think an MMO will ever capture the true cinematic Star Wars experience.

 

LOL, Garriot was a hack, but we obviously disagree on this point!

 

I alpha/beta tested UO and knew from the get go it was going to fail soon as their was real compitition to it (which happened immediately when EQ came on the scene) because it was designed as FFA PVP game.

 

The cancelled accounts got so bad after EQ came on the scene that Garriot ran away with his tail between his legs and a mirror copy of the UO world was made and coded as totally non pvp. Soon as that happened the PvP areas became barren, rarely visited, ghost areas to the point that Origin had to create UBER drop Champion Spawns in the PvP areas just to get some of the adventures to re enter the pvp areas.

 

UO from day 1 was plauged with exploits, bugs, corrupt GMs, and just about every other problem you could imagine.

 

Its no wonder that today MORE people play on FREE Player created and run shards then subscribe to UO. It took these players YEARS to break and copy and learn the UO coding but they did it so they could play on non Origin (no idea who bought it from origin) run UO worlds.

 

Thats how ground breaking Richard Garriot was. Heck, even in offline games, SSI's gold box games were ten times the game Ultima was, for me anyways.

 

But I digest! >_<

 

No game, be it offline or online will ever capture the effect of a Original ran movie (IE: Movie came out first). But MMORPGs can if designed correctly capture the exitement and continuing feeling of adventure found in offline games.

 

Sure you wont be Revan, who cares? In a MMORPG you can be GREATER then Revan, Greater then the Exile, Greater then Darth Vader, but you have to EARN that status. Unlike in a offline game where you have a cutscreen of NPCs cheering you, you have to earn the deeds so the other players cheer you. And that does actually happen when a game is designed correctly.

 

Sure that will not happen in WoW because that game is designed so EVERYONE can do EVERYTHING, there is no seperation, nothing is overly special. Going back to EQ, when the first person (not me) finished all 10 stages of the giant quest it was known across the server and for a period of time that player was famous to his peers (others that played the game). So Im sure he had the same exileration you find in a offline game. Throw in a well made cut screen movie for the end of quest and he could have had the NPCs cheering him as well.

 

But unlike a offline game, hes NOT finished, he can continue on a fter that and let his reputation grow even more. Anyway you look at it, thats an accomplishment.

 

Speaking for myself, 15 years ago I played Neverwinter Nights on AOL. I was totally addicted to PvP an unlike todays pvp it was set up in a matter of contests. We ran a pvp ladder, you would start at the bottom and work your way up through defeating those above you in pvp contests. I did fairly well on the singles ladder but was apart of one of the top 3 teams on the doubles ladder. I can say with no exageration, I earned a great deal of recognition in that game because of this. To the point that 14 years later I logged into a player run version of it and my name was still recognized as one of the more known old time players of the original. That made me smile and added some jump to my step, so to speak.

 

So yes you can capture a wide range of emotions from a MMORPG just as you can from a offline game. Either if well made can capture the same emotional responce. Only true difference is the offline game ends. The MMORPG continues on.

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But Ender, you do the fatal flaw.

I disagree. Richard Garriot was one of the premier RPG designers, and Ultima Online failed to deliver a true RPG experience.

 

Most MMO designers will tell you that they are trying to capture the single-player RPG experience, in adding a story with depth. But it's hard to script a story for 100,000 players.

 

I was a story-teller in an international LARP game with thousands of players. Running a table-top game for your friends is far easier than crafting a story for a game where 80 players might show up, and you don't know what characters will be in play.

 

MMOs face the same problem on a bigger scale.

 

In KOTOR, you were Revan. You were the main character, and you were at the center of the action. Games like the Matrix Online are trying to allow players to get enough fame and reknown to eventually impact major plots in the Matrix universe. But single players in a game that scale will likely never get the same experience as they did when they played a single player game like KOTOR.

 

MMOs have their strengths, and their weaknesses. I'm sure you can make interesting quests, and do more to improve MMOs, but I don't think an MMO will ever capture the true cinematic Star Wars experience.

 

LOL, Garriot was a hack, but we obviously disagree on this point!

 

I alpha/beta tested UO and knew from the get go it was going to fail soon as their was real compitition to it (which happened immediately when EQ came on the scene) because it was designed as FFA PVP game.

 

The cancelled accounts got so bad after EQ came on the scene that Garriot ran away with his tail between his legs and a mirror copy of the UO world was made and coded as totally non pvp. Soon as that happened the PvP areas became barren, rarely visited, ghost areas to the point that Origin had to create UBER drop Champion Spawns in the PvP areas just to get some of the adventures to re enter the pvp areas.

 

UO from day 1 was plauged with exploits, bugs, corrupt GMs, and just about every other problem you could imagine.

 

Its no wonder that today MORE people play on FREE Player created and run shards then subscribe to UO. It took these players YEARS to break and copy and learn the UO coding but they did it so they could play on non Origin (no idea who bought it from origin) run UO worlds.

 

Thats how ground breaking Richard Garriot was. Heck, even in offline games, SSI's gold box games were ten times the game Ultima was, for me anyways.

 

But I digest! :thumbsup:

 

No game, be it offline or online will ever capture the effect of a Original ran movie (IE: Movie came out first). But MMORPGs can if designed correctly capture the exitement and continuing feeling of adventure found in offline games.

 

Sure you wont be Revan, who cares? In a MMORPG you can be GREATER then Revan, Greater then the Exile, Greater then Darth Vader, but you have to EARN that status. Unlike in a offline game where you have a cutscreen of NPCs cheering you, you have to earn the deeds so the other players cheer you. And that does actually happen when a game is designed correctly.

 

Sure that will not happen in WoW because that game is designed so EVERYONE can do EVERYTHING, there is no seperation, nothing is overly special. Going back to EQ, when the first person (not me) finished all 10 stages of the giant quest it was known across the server and for a period of time that player was famous to his peers (others that played the game). So Im sure he had the same exileration you find in a offline game. Throw in a well made cut screen movie for the end of quest and he could have had the NPCs cheering him as well.

 

But unlike a offline game, hes NOT finished, he can continue on a fter that and let his reputation grow even more. Anyway you look at it, thats an accomplishment.

 

Speaking for myself, 15 years ago I played Neverwinter Nights on AOL. I was totally addicted to PvP an unlike todays pvp it was set up in a matter of contests. We ran a pvp ladder, you would start at the bottom and work your way up through defeating those above you in pvp contests. I did fairly well on the singles ladder but was apart of one of the top 3 teams on the doubles ladder. I can say with no exageration, I earned a great deal of recognition in that game because of this. To the point that 14 years later I logged into a player run version of it and my name was still recognized as one of the more known old time players of the original. That made me smile and added some jump to my step, so to speak.

 

So yes you can capture a wide range of emotions from a MMORPG just as you can from a offline game. Either if well made can capture the same emotional responce. Only true difference is the offline game ends. The MMORPG continues on.

 

I couldn't agree with you more Kalfear if I wrote your post myself.

 

I will even take it a step further and say I have been on some PvP MUDs that were done well enough to garner the same emotional rewards you refrence. If you strip away all the eye-candy a MMO is only as good as the content.

 

KoToR:online, in my head, has the potential for multiple story arcs ... factions, worlds, stories, lives, and enemies never seen, never explored and with enough depth and drama to excite the most hard core of gamers.

 

It's a wonderful time period, and the game engine (since designed off a platform requiring at least two real players anyway) that just begs to be converted into an MMO.

 

And on top of all that, with the potential of the next gen systems yet to be explored who knows what eye candy and innovations can be created to make it as great a cinamatic experience as possible.

 

Just because it hasn't been done before doesn't mean that it can't.

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