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Speaking of Bush Sr, what he said about invading Iraq:

 

To occupy Iraq would instantly shatter our coalition, turning the whole Arab world against us and make a broken tyrant into a latter-day hero ... assigning young soldiers to a fruitless hunt for a securely entrenched dictator and condemning them to fight in what would be an un-winnable urban guerilla war. It could only plunge that part of the world into even greater instability.

 

How right he was.

 

 

Have a source of the quote?

 

If invading Iraq was wrong. Why did Bush Sr. support his son?

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His son.

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Rosbjerg is correct...I found the quote in the Political Compass website and thought it was interesting.

 

I don't know what made him change his mind, however.

Possibly September 11, not that it's directly relevant, I mean the feeling it created that a violent response was necessary.

 

Or maybe he hasn't changed his mind and it's just plain family loyalty that's keeping him quiet. He's unlikely to criticise his own son's policies, whatever he feels personally.

"An electric puddle is not what I need right now." (Nina Kalenkov)

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Or maybe he hasn't, changed his mind and it's just plain family loyalty that's keeping him quiet.  He's unlikely to criticise his own son's policies, whatever he feels personally.

That's what I think.

- When he is best, he is a little worse than a man, and when he is worst, he is little better than a beast.

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What the US needs to do, is recall the draft and make sure that everyone does his/hers job serving their country. It also abolishes the situation where ordinary civilians might be treated as a second-hand citizens.

Well, that's easy to say when you're not the one getting DRAFTED.

 

Well I like the idea. Joining the military proves that your are loyal to the United States of America and it will also make you proud to be a American.

Well, you just go and join it then. I'm quite comfortable living on the scenic east coast. While you're at it, read Johnny Got His Gun if you haven't already.

 

They tell you to bomb that area. You bomb that area.

So it's not your fault when you kill innocent people. You just did what they told you to. SUBJECTIVE MORALITY GO

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They tell you to bomb that area. You bomb that area.

So it's not your fault when you kill innocent people. You just did what they told you to. SUBJECTIVE MORALITY GO

Yep. That's how it works. Nobody said it had to be pretty or leave a nice aftertaste.

- When he is best, he is a little worse than a man, and when he is worst, he is little better than a beast.

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Yep. That's how it works. Nobody said it had to be pretty or leave a nice aftertaste.

You know, I have a feeling that if we all lived in the third world countries that actually did get bombed, we'd be a whole lot less blase, myself included.

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so if someone tell me to kill a man and I do it's not my fault? riiight..

 

you are 100% responsible for your own actions.. but I will agree that those who gave you the order is partly responisble .. but the ultimate decision lies with you, you either press the button or not .. and face the consequences! you can't hide behind the concept of "an order"!

Fortune favors the bald.

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I guess the SS Death's Head Formations said the same thing when asked about the camps...

DENMARK!

 

It appears that I have not yet found a sig to replace the one about me not being banned... interesting.

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I guess the SS Death's Head Formations said the same thing when asked about the camps...

 

The differense that SS squards know that they are whiping a entire race of people. American flyboy dont know what kind of people are down there so they bomb them. Look in WWII when US, British, Germans are bombing entire cities. Do you believe that they didnt want to do that? No. They had a job to do. They do what they order to do.

 

God If you been or lived in military life. You would know what were talking about.

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A mandatory draft not only rapes the constitution it also makes for a less effective military force. A draft should only be optioned in the event of a major war(IE: WW2) in which the majority of the nation supports the war effort. The all volunteer force we have now is more effective because of the simple fact that citizens joining the army join because they want to go fight. They have the motivation, the desire and apptitude to fufill this duty. A citizen forced to fight(IE: an unsupported draft) makes little more than cannon fodder.

 

As for patriotism, what is wrong with that? Is it a crime to be proud of your country? No nation is perfect but I say with absolute certainity that the U.S. is the least of the international offenders of human rights. The U.S. is better than some other countries, I don't see Iranian carrier fleets or North Korean battleships anywhere. What about European militaries? Those nations depend on the local U.S. power like a baby depends on her mother's breast milk. With Putin slashing democratic processes in preperation for a return to communism the EU better get the plug out of thier ass and maybe get some patriotism for themselves.

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What the US needs to do, is recall the draft and make sure that everyone does his/hers job serving their country. It also abolishes the situation where ordinary civilians might be treated as a second-hand citizens.

Well, that's easy to say when you're not the one getting DRAFTED.

 

Actually Meshugger is the one to get drafted since he lives in finland and finland has mandatory drafting system.

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You know, I have a feeling that if we all lived in the third world countries that actually did get bombed, we'd be a whole lot less blase, myself included.

I wouldn't know. I am the result of the circumstances I've grown in. Would my views be different? Possibly. But that doesn't necessarily mean they would be any more right.

 

Still, I try to have an objective, detached opinion about all this. Why aren't Julius Caesar's or Alexander the Great's campaigns considered "great human tragedies", but today's wars are? The goals aren't any different, only the means. Why are the great military leaders of old called "conquerors" and those who start wars today are called murderers?

 

It seems that we would like to see ourselves as "enlightened" when compared to the people of the old times. Sure, we have TFT displays and sliced bread, but as far as politics are concerned, things haven't changed significantly. I really wish I could think of a world that could work without war, but that's just wishful thinking.

 

History puts everyone in their rightful place.

 

 

so if someone tell me to kill a man and I do it's not my fault? riiight..

 

you are 100% responsible for your own actions.. but I will agree that those who gave you the order is partly responisble .. but the ultimate decision lies with you, you either press the button or not .. and face the consequences! you can't hide behind the concept of "an order"!

For a civilian that is correct. But it's not a soldier's place to question orders. If they did, the chain of command would crumble, and the army would stop working as a cohesive fighting force. That is what military Justice is for. You might argue that then the whole idea of an organization that turns men into automatons is absurd, but that's beside the point. If you can think of something better, feel free to share it with us.

 

Obviously all of that doesn't apply in totalitarian regimes, but that's a whole different story.

- When he is best, he is a little worse than a man, and when he is worst, he is little better than a beast.

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A mandatory draft not only rapes the constitution it also makes for a less effective military force. A draft should only be optioned in the event of a major war(IE: WW2) in which the majority of the nation supports the war effort. The all volunteer force we have now is more effective because of the simple fact that citizens joining the army join because they want to go fight. They have the motivation, the desire and apptitude to  fufill this duty. A citizen forced to fight(IE: an unsupported draft) makes little more than cannon fodder.

 

You know, here at least, draftees don't get shipped off to war if they don't want to, and it so happens that some of those who initially resist end up continuing or taking international assignments. Besides, you need an education to become an officer.

 

As for patriotism, what is wrong with that? Is it a crime to be proud of your country?

 

I really don't want to talk more about patriotism, let me just say you don't have to be a patriot to be proud of your country.

 

No nation is perfect but I say with absolute certainity that the U.S. is the least of the international offenders of human rights.

 

You're quite right, no nations is perfect. Did anyone here claim otherwise? Well I'll just say this, I really dislike what's going on in Guantanamo.

 

The U.S. is better than some other countries, I don't see Iranian carrier fleets or North Korean battleships anywhere.

 

So you define a country to be better by how many carrier battlegroups and battleships they have? Well you're certainly better at going to war, we've all witnessed that! :ph34r:

 

What about European militaries? Those nations depend on the local U.S. power like a baby depends on her mother's breast milk.

 

We depend on U.S. power? What on earth do you mean by that? I certainly don't depend on US military, never have. So you must mean electricity or what? ;)

 

With Putin slashing democratic processes in preperation for a return to communism the EU better get the plug out of thier ass and maybe get some patriotism for themselves.

 

Tried that, remember what happened in Europe the previous century? You keep it.

DENMARK!

 

It appears that I have not yet found a sig to replace the one about me not being banned... interesting.

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<incoherent gibberish>

And that's what happens when proud illiteracy meets raw stupidity. :p

 

Well why don't you prove yourself more mature then? you talk about endless personal attacks on you .. and now you are doing it yourself! that is, what I think you call, "hypocrisy" ..

Fortune favors the bald.

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Well why don't you prove yourself more mature then? you talk about endless personal attacks on you .. and now you are doing it yourself! that is, what I think you call, "hypocrisy" ..

Nah, I wasn't complaining about the personal attacks, I couldn't care less about those. I was just pointing out that he resorted to those when he found himself unable to refute me. That's the difference. Want me to refute his arguments? I can do that, too.

 

 

let me just say you don't have to be a patriot to be proud of your country.

Wrong. That's just one of the aspects of patriotism.

 

 

You're quite right, no nations is perfect. Did anyone here claim otherwise? Well I'll just say this, I really dislike what's going on in Guantanamo.

Well, sorry about that. I hear it's pretty comfortable as far as POW camps go.

 

 

We depend on U.S. power? What on earth do you mean by that? I certainly don't depend on US military, never have. So you must mean electricity or what? :geek:

Well, considering that NATO forces are made up mostly of US equipment and personnel, I'd say we depend somewhat on their military. And let's not forget it was the US that came to the rescue in WWII. So... yeah.

 

 

Tried that, remember what happened in Europe the previous century? You keep it.

For the nth time, fascism and national socialism are not other words for patriotism. You tell your friends that.

 

Is that better, Ros? :p

- When he is best, he is a little worse than a man, and when he is worst, he is little better than a beast.

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