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Deus ex Machina: the Will of The Force ...

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I've never read Hamlet... Maybe I'll check it out one day (after I wade through the other 15 books I have in a week and a half).

 

Does anybody agree w/ the healthy (for all of us, including many of our positions at work :thumbsup: ) comprimise I have suggested??? I feel like nobody is listening... Usual I prefer that, but... :ph34r:

 

 

Mmm? Did you say something? :p

 

I'm sticking with my definition, dunno about yours ... you've gone all sky-pilot on me and added some metaphysical touchy-feely sentience to it.

 

I like hard science! Just the facts. :p


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He's asking us what we think, so I don't know if he has his own defenition or not...

 

I subscribed to the traditional philosophy espoused in the OT. That's why I was taken aback by The Kreia Revelation, and decided to bring it up for conversation.

 

[1] As I mentioned just above, Occham's Razor suggests that, based on logic, The Force is some sort of small "f" force, without sentience. (No need for it, so its out, too. Of course this is just building a fit hypothetical model to fit the known evidence, minus the unnecessary stuff: there is no reason to say that The Force isn't actually sentient and scheming to turn the Jedi Council into a pile of poodoo -- that would be a faith based judgement.) :p

 

[2] So it acts like a big gravity well on every particle in the universe (according to some intrinsic component -- like those damnable midichlorians -- and the "distance for a set point* in the alignment of The Force"*).

 

[3] Every time you take it pulls, every time you pull it takes (relative to said point of reference).

 

 

Well how do you explain the creation of The Chosen One then? since he was born without a father .. if the force is not a sentient being then this would be a random thing, and if that was the case, how come there was a prophecy foretelling this?

 

1. Well you covered your bases here .. But as you say, it can still be sentient, we may simply not know the whole thruth ..

 

2 + 3. does this impliy that The Force is subject to the universal laws of physics?

 

imo The Force needs to be somewhat sentient .. as Jedis are 'allowed' to see future events through it, which, in my mind, implies it's omniscient in some way..

Maybe The Force is some kind og united conscience (if you can say that in English?), the total of all the minds of all life combined.. thus acting like a "super subconscience" .. hmm I'll need to think a little more about that..


Fortune favors the bald.

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I ignore the 'vergeance' prophesy... It was a huge mistake.


Geekified Star Wars Geek

 

Heart of the Force, Arm of the Force

 

"Only a Sith deals in absolutes!"

-Obi-wan to Anakin (NOT advocating Grey-Jedidom)

 

"The Force doesn't control people, Kreia controls people."

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And I never said you believe in a lie or that you are delusional

 

Never said you did. :D I just said I enjoy the freedom to believe what you want in peace, even if you do think that. Sort of like you made it sound like a was a zealot without actually saying it. Touche'

 

As for what you said about Thetans, yes, you pretty much have a good understanding of what they believe, and yes it is complex. But it does sound alot like Medichlorians...

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I subscribed to the traditional philosophy espoused in the OT. That's why I was taken aback by The Kreia Revelation, and decided to bring it up for conversation.

 

[1] As I mentioned just above, Occham's Razor suggests that, based on logic, The Force is some sort of small "f" force, without sentience. (No need for it, so its out, too. Of course this is just building a fit hypothetical model to fit the known evidence, minus the unnecessary stuff: there is no reason to say that The Force isn't actually sentient and scheming to turn the Jedi Council into a pile of poodoo -- that would be a faith based judgement.)  :-

 

[2] So it acts like a big gravity well on every particle in the universe (according to some intrinsic component -- like those damnable midichlorians -- and the "distance for a set point* in the alignment of The Force"*).

 

[3] Every time you take it pulls, every time you pull it takes (relative to said point of reference).

 

 

Well how do you explain the creation of The Chosen One then? since he was born without a father .. if the force is not a sentient being then this would be a random thing, and if that was the case, how come there was a prophecy foretelling this?

 

1. Well you covered your bases here .. But as you say, it can still be sentient, we may simply not know the whole thruth ..

 

2 + 3. does this impliy that The Force is subject to the universal laws of physics?

 

imo The Force needs to be somewhat sentient .. as Jedis are 'allowed' to see future events through it, which, in my mind, implies it's omniscient in some way..

Maybe The Force is some kind og united conscience (if you can say that in English?), the total of all the minds of all life combined.. thus acting like a "super subconscience" .. hmm I'll need to think a little more about that..

 

Well, if an infinite number of monkeys sit at an infinite number of typewriters (there's a few spare in the latter infinity, for contingency planning, plus a few extra typing ribbons, sndwiches and coke) for an infinite time period, they will get very tired. Also, they will produce the entire works of Shakespeare, in the original Klingon.

 

Prophecies are easy to make, and loads of people spend more time interpreting them than philosophers spend philosophising (which is a lot).

 

What was the prophecy? "A chosen one will come from The Force and provide balance to the sheet, whereas there were only credits before, now there will be debits such that LucasArts will again be bounteous." ... No, that's not it ... ;)"

 

Let's consider some alternatives.

Perhaps the nature of The Force embodies some other-dimensional qualities, such that exposure to it, especially around significant events (that warp the fabric of The Force in our dimensions, much like super-heavy object -- like black holes -- warp the fabric of Space-Time like a bowling ball on a trampoline causing smaller masses like golf balls to be attracted); where the warping effect will cause the Force Sensitive to "see around the corner" of our Space-Time continuum into the/a future world ...

 

How's that? :cool:

 

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. "

Arthur C. Clarke, "Profiles of The Future", 1961 (Clarke's third law)

English physicist & science fiction author (1917 - )

 

I would add the sufficiently advanced understanding of the universe would sound like magic, too. To explain The Force in terms of laws of physics, which is eminently possible, we would need to expand physics to encompass the new ideas and laws. (A bit like the Ancient Greeks -- oh look: metaphysics, they beat us to it! -- okay, we'll call ours supraphysics, then.)

 

No need for the extra burden of your "collective-unconscious" (


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And I never said you believe in a lie or that you are delusional

 

Never said you did. :D I just said I enjoy the freedom to believe what you want in peace, even if you do think that. Sort of like you made it sound like a was a zealot without actually saying it. Touche'

 

As for what you said about Thetans, yes, you pretty much have a good understanding of what they believe, and yes it is complex. But it does sound alot like Medichlorians...

 

So are these Thetans viruses or people?


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That was a good way to put that...

 

(I think. Lemme reread it a couple of times, and then maybe my over-tired brain will understand. :ph34r: )


Geekified Star Wars Geek

 

Heart of the Force, Arm of the Force

 

"Only a Sith deals in absolutes!"

-Obi-wan to Anakin (NOT advocating Grey-Jedidom)

 

"The Force doesn't control people, Kreia controls people."

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That was a good way to put that...

 

(I think. Lemme reread it a couple of times, and then maybe my over-tired brain will understand. :ph34r: )

 

 

... where the warping effect will cause the Force Sensitive to "see around the corner" of our Space-Time continuum into the/a future world ...

 

I can expand on that a bit, too.

If we assume the future is not set, and therefore "There is no fate but what we make", then these warping events might cause tears in the fabric of the universe, such that other universes (close to ours) where everything is identical space-time-wise up until this event, but different events follow on from the event, all are accessible through the common, conjoined rift in the continuum.

 

:-


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That made more sense.

 

That's all fine and well, but nowhere in SW does it mention alternate universes, so, for all intents and purposes, the only SW Universe that we have to worry about is the canonical (and all related to Kotor II) one.

 

That does make sense, yes... Sorta 'seeing' around things, but 'obstacles' (or choices yet to be made) can get in the way and fuzzy things all up. Yoda said it was DIFFICULT to tell the future, but maybe that's because whatever the Force 'thinks' is likely to happen is the background image behind all the fuzz may look like.


Geekified Star Wars Geek

 

Heart of the Force, Arm of the Force

 

"Only a Sith deals in absolutes!"

-Obi-wan to Anakin (NOT advocating Grey-Jedidom)

 

"The Force doesn't control people, Kreia controls people."

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That made more sense.

 

That's all fine and well, but nowhere in SW does it mention alternate universes, so, for all intents and purposes, the only SW Universe that we have to worry about is the canonical (and all related to Kotor II) one.

 

That does make sense, yes... Sorta 'seeing' around things, but 'obstacles' (or choices yet to be made) can get in the way and fuzzy things all up. Yoda said it was DIFFICULT to tell the future, but maybe that's because whatever the Force 'thinks' is likely to happen is the background image behind all the fuzz may look like.

 

Yoda played pretty fast and loose with the truth, too.

 

He might just be covering up for sleeping on the job ... all those times he was "meditating" he may have been off down the pub, or visiting that House of the Three-Tentacled-Twi'lek ...

 

But, yeah. I was just making sure that the hypothesis ws rigorous to withstand an uncertain future. In case we're in a dream and we're going to wake up and Bobby's still in the shower. :-

 

What was the "Vergence Prophecy" ? ;)


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Maybe we should stry seeing the Future and the Force in different lights. The Force has a will, maybe, but no-one said it had *sentience* - let's try thinking of it as a heartbeat in the background of the universe, or a freeform piece of music that's always changing as the universe changes. If you were sensitive, you could 'dance to the beat', as it were. Or, if you were dark side, try to use your will to force the music into what you wanted, while unknowingly being drawn into it.

 

Farseeing the future through the Force would therefore be akin to a doctor forecasting a heart failure by picking up on a flutter in the heartbeat, or an engineer hearing an engine not sounding quite right, albeit with visions.

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Maybe we should stry seeing the Future and the Force in different lights. The Force has a will, maybe, but no-one said it had *sentience* - let's try thinking of it as a heartbeat in the background of the universe, or a freeform piece of music that's always changing as the universe changes. If you were sensitive, you could 'dance to the beat', as it were. Or, if you were dark side, try to use your will to force the music into what you wanted, while unknowingly being drawn into it.

 

Farseeing the future through the Force would therefore be akin to a doctor forecasting a heart failure by picking up on a flutter in the heartbeat, or an engineer hearing an engine not sounding quite right, albeit with visions.

 

Okay, more info on that, then.

 

LS: Dance to the beat. Got it. How does that help a LS FS? Use the eddies in the "music" like a yacht in the breeze, perhaps?

 

DS: Change the music. Okay, this bit needs fleshing out. What are you saying here: "getting out their bongos and adding a new backbeat", perhaps doing some "scratching" with the universal track? Manipulating the wind into making the sea change, so the yacht can catch the wave as well as sail the breeze?

 

Got the medical analogy. :-


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The musical analogy is just that, an analogy - a reference to a music of the spheres, almost. I will try to flesh it out.

 

'To dance along', in this case, is my way of trying to express what trying to follow the Light Side of the force is like. A Jedi spends his entire life learning not only how to listen to the Force, but also to synchronise with it, almost.

 

Luke: "I feel the Force!"

Obi-Wan: "But you cannot control it."

- "Empire Strikes Back"

 

We therefore are given to understand that there is a difference between being a 'Force Sensitive' (someone who can listen and dance along) and a 'Force User' (or Force Adept?). Obi-Wan uses the word 'control', and that's what the goal of a Jedi's synchronicity with the Force is - rather than being able to simply follow the tune, a trained Jedi can, if you will, execute a few 'dance flourishes' of his own - work his own will into the music. And the key point is, if it is done RIGHT, then the Force, the music, will respond and change and complement what the Jedi is doing just as the Jedi complements the Force with what he is doing. Thus the Jedi is not simply able to follow the beat - and be in the right place at the right time, as Jedi are so often able to be - but are also able to affect the world by influencing the 'music' with their own will. So what we have is a symbiotic relationship between the 'music' and the 'dancers'.

 

We can postulate there is something underlying the music, a second 'music of minor chords' that is the Dark Side. It's crashing, it's discordant, and it's what a Dark Side user brings to the fore, dancing to that tune and causing it to drown out the natural, balanced music of the Light Side around him, disrupting the natural order of things and making it very difficult for those trying to follow the Light Side's 'music' to hear anything.

 

Anyhow, I say, then, that the Force has a will, but it's not a will in the way that we would understand a sentient will - a composer understands what music will sound good and what note should follow another note to achieve a result. That's the Force - every 'note' of the music naturally follows the next. It's a harmony.

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The Force, in the standard movie-based view, is really only the LS. The Dark Side is supposed to be a perersion of sorts, something unnatural. LS = good, DS = evil.

 

However, the books, as I understand it, delve more deeply. After all, the Force is generated by life, and life is both joy and pain. Life is beautiful, but it is also brutual, and violent, and capable of inflicting suffering and pain simply to survive.

 

This presents the Force in a much different manner. The DS isn't automatically evil...even though it is evil. This little paradox of human ethics vs. the mechanics that keep everything running smoothly (for the point was made that without conflict and struggle, we don't grow stronger, and without strength, we can't defend ourselves and die).

 

In this sort of view, then it could be said that both the LS and the DS are evil in their own ways, dangerous extremes that are anathema to life. The proper path would be a more balanced one that takes a measure of high minded ideals and grounds them with a dose of pragmatism evidenced by the DS.

 

It could also be the case, in this latter view the rise and fall of the LS and DS could simply be a cycle by which the galaxy maintains itself. The order of the LS keeps everything running smoothly, but inevitably falls to complacency and stagnates, and then the DS comes along and raises holy hell, galvanizing life in the universe once again so it doesn't lose its strength and fail.

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I've said this all before, but never in so few posts...

 

I think that the DS is a perverted use of the LS; Whereas people usually use the LS to 'dance to the beat' as you so aptly put, Credulous, the DS users DO try to force their own will into there. They use life to destroy life (among other things that seriously change things), and this could very well be the reason for their aesthetic appearance.

 

I was reading a Forgotten Realms book, and I found this oddly familiar quote: "I felt a tremor in the Weave." I read that, and broke out laughing...


Geekified Star Wars Geek

 

Heart of the Force, Arm of the Force

 

"Only a Sith deals in absolutes!"

-Obi-wan to Anakin (NOT advocating Grey-Jedidom)

 

"The Force doesn't control people, Kreia controls people."

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These musings are all well and good, but I fear we are no closer to explaining what The Force is (assuming it is possible, of course). :geek:

 

I like the "music of the spheres" analogy, although the DS I still think isn't clear. (This could be a function of my limited knowledge of music theory, however.) :D

 

Life / Nature is cruel, not evil. It is honest. There are no hidden agendas, just plain, naked survival. A lion kills an antelope because it must, so too a Polar Bear must kill baby seals or starve. That cannot be evil, otherwise we have a deep paradox (maybe Saint Augustine was right about original sin? :p ).

 

Evil is also a moral choice, not simply a mental retardation.

 

Equally, sentient beings are capable of wanton cruelty -- foxes kill for fun as well as food, for example. A short philospohical walk later and we enter our neighbourhood: humans being evil for their own purposes. But, yet, this is still classifiable as "survival": whomever is the most successful at removing rivals will be fruitful and multiply.

 

It is the struggle against these baser drives that begets "goodness". "Don't do to others what you would not want them to do to you." as Confucius said nearly a hundred years before Christ.

 

So we can perhaps say that Goodness (LS) is a struggle against the banal, selfish survival-at-all-costs mentality. Only LS would sacrifice for the greater good -- a higher purpose. (Although this does not preclude a mother spider giving her newly-hatched babies their first meal, herself!)

 

Higher Purpose? Where self-awareness and the pursuit of knowledge to the betterment all all who subscribe to the worldview is put ahead of individuals. survival of the Society is more important that the individual; but -- and this is crucial -- the individual is more important that the society, otherwise we simply replace a single being with a conglomerate of beings that act as one (like a hive or nest of termintes).

 

Now that's a paradox. I think this illuminates some of the complexities of the nature of goodness. Evil is just a choice to further the self ahead of all else, at any cost, which is ultimately simpler and easier.

 

Where does The Force come in? If such a thing existed, then it could be just Life.

 

The Light Side would be akin to Goodness, where it strives to make all life better, without sacrificing individual members (which, individually, are more important than the collective). But, self-scrifice is a virtue; it is only when some external agent determines that a being needs to be "sacrificed" that we see the malevolent will aspect come into play.

 

It is a very complex concept, then. Life would be like the Senate, when everyone is trying to be nice but still keep their own life advancing. And the Senate is not reknown for expediency, efficiency nor efficacy. So how can The Force exist in this passive state?

 

Therefore let's examine if it exists in a more active state. This brings us to the deification of The Force, with a Will and therefore an agenda (probably self-actualisation), and the ability to mold / influence events and beings to this agenda.

 

Or, I could be totally wrong. :D


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Once again, I find my mind drifting towards Ca


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Heart of the Force, Arm of the Force

 

"Only a Sith deals in absolutes!"

-Obi-wan to Anakin (NOT advocating Grey-Jedidom)

 

"The Force doesn't control people, Kreia controls people."

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Oh, and metadigital, that was a good way to put it. But, you are still doing what SciFi writers from the 60's did: You're trying to include MODERN logic into a FANTASY (/SCIFI) world.

 

SciFi in the 60's had home computers the size of cars, but look how wrong they are... The one I'm using is a little bigger than my head (which isn't an easy feat :p ).


Geekified Star Wars Geek

 

Heart of the Force, Arm of the Force

 

"Only a Sith deals in absolutes!"

-Obi-wan to Anakin (NOT advocating Grey-Jedidom)

 

"The Force doesn't control people, Kreia controls people."

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Oh, and metadigital, that was a good way to put it. But, you are still doing what SciFi writers from the 60's did: You're trying to include MODERN logic into a FANTASY (/SCIFI) world.

 

SciFi in the 60's had home computers the size of cars, but look how wrong they are... The one I'm using is a little bigger than my head (which isn't an easy feat :geek: ).

 

What "modern" logic am I using? I thought logic was logic was logic! :p

 

I thought we were talking about good and evil, and some "all-powerful force that controls my destiny", (Han Solo, Star Wars), and their relationship(s).


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I'm talking about all of your references to Taoism etc., and your insistence that the Force is EXACTLY like one (or more) of these.

 

I just like to complain. Leave me and my big head alone! :p


Geekified Star Wars Geek

 

Heart of the Force, Arm of the Force

 

"Only a Sith deals in absolutes!"

-Obi-wan to Anakin (NOT advocating Grey-Jedidom)

 

"The Force doesn't control people, Kreia controls people."

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I'm talking about all of your references to Taoism etc., and your insistence that the Force is EXACTLY like one (or more) of these.

 

I just like to complain. Leave me and my big head alone! :p

 

We-eeeeeeeeeeeell, I'm not insisting on crow-barring The Force into an existing philosophy-slash-theology, I'm just trying to understand it. ('Cos that's the kinda guy I am. :D )

 

In science, if a new experimental result doesn't fit your model, you revise the model (e.g. "traditional electric current" went from negative to positive). (Religion, on the other hand, tends to call the new information heretical, and burns it and everyone involved. :lol:" )

 

So, with the new "The Force seems to have a will...", I try and fit that into the existing (small "f" force) model.

 

****

 

I've been thinking a bit more (yes, it hurt, boom boom, and yes it is a dangerous thing) about what "Goodness" is. The whole incorporation -- i.e. manifesting into some "quintessence" or being -- is, rather obviously, where the issue lies.

 

I guess the problem is the only way to explain the phenomena is to directly observe it and then buid the model.

 

Except the phenomena is fictional. So I am left with "sanity-checking" the model that is presented as "science-fantasy-fact"; I have no choice in this, I simply am compelled to do so. (It's part of my quiditity: what makes me the fun loving relentlessly obsessive psychopath that I am.)

 

It's a pickle.

 

***

 

You're not Dutch, are you? I have a friend who is Dutch. He has a big head. Therefore you must be Dutch. :p


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In SW, there's good and bad, no in between. You're either good at heart, or bad. 'Nough said.

 

Awww. How boring. =(

 

Yeah, it kinda opposes the entire theme of KotOR2, don't you think? Exploring the true nature of goodness, how ethical dilemmas play out, when to trust a liar and when not to follow a friend ...

 

It's also a wee bit too simplistic. The Roman Empire, for example, committed horrendous acts of genocide and war crimes. But, in the end, the long term benefits of a central point of reference for social, political, religious and human growth has been a boon to our civilization. Was the Roman Empire Good or Bad?

 

It's a bit like Tom Baker's Doctor Who in The Genesis of The Daleks, when he ponders whether he has the right to destroy the evil race, because "Out of [the Daleks'] great evil must come some great good."

 

:cool:


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This is more significant than I believe anyone has mentioned yet.

 

If The Force has a Will of its own, then it is a God (equivalent to the Judea-Christian one).

 

Up until this point in time, Star Wars has implied that The Force is neither good nor bad, simply the sum of all life. If, indeed, The Force has a Will, then either:

 

it is a Good God and Good will triumph (Light Side), or

it is ultimately an Evil God and the universe ends in pain and suffering.

 

It also means that an individual's free will is subsumed in the Will of the Force (so that they are all pawns of The Force).

 

Interestingly, this is one of the central dilemmas of Christian thought, as first illucidated by Saint Augistine: Free Chioce means that there must be some people who will choose evil and will therefore not be saved; if some people are doomed, then either God is not all knowing (didn't see it coming) or not all powerful (couldn't prevent it).

 

So, does The Force have a Will? Or is it just an energy form that binds us all together (and can be manipulated by carbon-based life forms with iron-based fluid called blood that transports nutrients and oxygen fuel around their bodies, together with midichlorians that enable them a degree of control over this Force)?

 

Free Will or Fate?  :thumbsup:

 

So where is the dilemma? God is both all-knowing and all-powerful, but he also follows certain rules that he built into human beings from the start. First of all, he allows us free will, which means that he didn't make a race of robots, because robots can never truly love their creator. God created children - people who would love him and follow his lead because they CHOOSE to, not because he forces them to. The true measure of "all-powerful" is in the ability to choose when to exert that power over others.

 

God is also all-knowing, but that doesn't mean that he is the one who pre-destines everything. There is a difference between knowing what will happen and being the one who causes it to be so. The paradox here is that God CREATED linear existance, meaning that our existance, the way that our lives start at one point and continue in a straight line until the end, is not the way that God exists. He created that system but is not subject to it. The paradox is that God is able to both exist in the present with us, in every single moment, down to the most infinitely tiny detail, while also existing in a large sense, outside of time, outside of the universe.

 

Hurting your brain yet? Well it should. God shouldn't be something that we can explain rationally or intellectually, because if we could, we would be on the same level as God, and considering human nature, that would be frightening indeed. I believe in God, and I worship him. I do my best to follow his lead in everything I do, not because I understand everything he does or can explain everything about his nature, but because I DON'T understand and I CAN'T explain it all. In order to have a relationship with our creator we must accept our role as his creation and accept that there are some questions we may never be able to answer.

 

As the Bible says - God does not have a beginning or an end. Try as I might, I cannot wrap my mind around that, because I exist in linear time - my being cannot understand anything outside of that existance. So I have decided to allow God to keep some of his secrets. I'll find out some day.

 

Sorry to preach - just seemed appropriate for the thread :geek:

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