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Deus ex Machina: the Will of The Force ...


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And in other news...

 

2. Attempting to gang up on me, saying "Yeah, What he said," doesn't intimidate me. Get a brain and join the debate, or stop embarrassing yourself and keep quiet.

 

It is the third party's luxury to choose which of the two debaters he will side with. He was responding negatively to a very obvious flaw in your argument, which I will point out now.

 

3. To aid your reading comprehension, let me remind you that FaramirK just agreed with me that one of the earliest Gospel records was nearly a century after the stated events.

 

1) Your "nearly a century" is closer to 50-60 years (c30 AD - c90 AD), and is while one of the 12 disciples is still alive. Not even to mention the other eyewitnesses who would be old, but still living.

 

And, of course this is all tangential to my original point, which was that very few of the audience could actually read first hand what the scriptures said, because it was in a foreign language

 

This is, in fact, a deathblow to your point. Every citizen of the Roman Empire from Spain to Egypt spoke greek. All they would have needed was either the ability to read, or to hear someone reading it out if they could not. It was not in a foreign language, it was written in the trade-language of the Roman Empire. So collapses your entire argument. It was readily avaliable.

 

and based on a idealised re-creation of the actual events.

 

Why would eyewitnesses readily believe the message of the Disciples if they knew it was false, convert to a lie, and then die for a lie?

 

I was once a Communist, who believed that Stalin had not caused the deaths of 20 million Ukrainians by starving them to death in the 30's. In 2003, I was able to visit the country. Eyewitnesses reported that there had been a famine, and some of them even admitted to having been the ones who helped spread the famine. I was forced to change my view, because of the eyewitness acounts of dozens and dozens of people I met.

 

When I returned home, the Party I was a member of refused to believe my report, and I was asked to leave the party. Who would you have believed?

 

Not that many medieval europeans were conversant in ancient Greek

 

It took between 200 and 400 years for the greek of 100AD to become archaic. Eventually, the bible was translated into medieval German and English among others, just as the Catholic Church began to become more exclusive in who had access to the bible.

 

And as for the Gospels being written in Latin, the Roman Catholic Bible was latin until 1968.

 

Whats your point? It was one translation. There were millions of people who never came into contact with the Latin, and kept the Bible in greek.

 

Oh, btw, you're forgeting the Qumran Library, which was written in Ancient Greek, Hebrew and Aramaic between 300-68BCE, which is a little more relevant to our Old Testament discussion.

 

Why on earth would you think I had "forgotten" the Qumran Library? Hardly...being able to study those scrolls up close was one of the most memorable moments of my life...I didn't say anything about forgetting them, my friend. You mentioning them was a bit of a "rabbit trail".

 

I'll get to the Genesis part of your argument later. Or, if you prefer, I'll just send a PM. If you prefer the latter, say so. Otherwise I'll keep our discussion in the public eye.

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"What's stopping... Kamino from creating a 'super chosen one'

 

How about the fact that anytime a Jedi is cloned, their clone goes insane?

 

Ohma, I think I can understand where you might be coming from. It sounds like what I've said before. People CAN be led around, but ultimately the Force is what all Life MAKES it become.

 

 

You don't have to clone a Jedi. Just the midichlorians. Then use a hypodermic needle to dope the target -- like any medicinal augmentation (e.g. a course of antibiotics, antidepressants or even daily vitamins and cups of coffee for caffeine). They could even make 'em into a patch, like a quit-smoking nicotine one, or an implant.

:D

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And in other news...

Disclaimer:

Those of you who are totally disinterested in a dissection of Christian Theology and Bible exegesis, please skip this post. Normal services will be resumed as soon as possible.

Thank you.

2. Attempting to gang up on me, saying "Yeah, What he said," doesn't intimidate me. Get a brain and join the debate, or stop embarrassing yourself and keep quiet.

It is the third party's luxury to choose which of the two debaters he will side with. He was responding negatively to a very obvious flaw in your argument, which I will point out now.

I was attempting to minimise the noise on this channel. I have no problem with third parties joining the debate -- for or against me -- I have a problem with people saying "Yeah! So there!", because it adds nothing to the debate.

3. To aid your reading comprehension, let me remind you that FaramirK just agreed with me that one of the earliest Gospel records was nearly a century after the stated events.

1) Your "nearly a century" is closer to 50-60 years (c30 AD - c90 AD), and is while one of the 12 disciples is still alive. Not even to mention the other eyewitnesses who would be old, but still living.

a. You are splitting hairs. Where are the acounts of the remainign 11 disciples? Are they missing? Or perhaps they couldn't write, hmm?

Memory is totally subjective -- check any Cognitive Psychology textbook.

And what about the time period up until Constantine I revoked the Death sentence for Christians (see f, below).

And the contradictions in the Gospels.

And the "unofficial" non-canonical Gospels that were conveniently edited out at the Nicaean Council.

b. And what about Mary's Gospel? (The rivalry between Peter and Mary, and Peter's politcal ambition causing the entrenched sexism in the Church.) I assume you have read this in your Bible studies, yet most of the billion or so Christians are totally ignorant of it.

 

Your argument requires that all of the conflicts of editors and authors be known and understood by the entire audience. Which is patently false nonsense.

Because the Church is telling people what it wants them to hear.

 

c. Are you ruling out the possibility of no hidden agenda? That to me seems more irrational than me suggesting it might be a possibility. I am building a deductive logic argument based on the established evidence to diagnose a pattern: i.e. keeping the "message" hidden so the Church can tell it.

d. And I haven't even mentioned the actual historical (and political) underpinnings of the protagonist (Jesus Christ) as it related to the contemporary society (Jewish resistence to the Roman occupation of Judea), which is commonly understood by the clergy but again not divulged to the laity.

Or the Roman bias that leads modern Christians to mistakenly believe the Jewish political leaders wanted Jesus killed, and Pontius Pilate was just fulfilling their wishes. (The Jewish Rabis could have anyone stoned: it was their rite. Crucifixion was a Roman punishment, for politcal activists. Remember Spartacus?)

And, of course this is all tangential to my original point, which was that very few of the audience could actually read first hand what the scriptures said, because it was in a foreign language

This is, in fact, a deathblow to your point. Every citizen of the Roman Empire from Spain to Egypt spoke greek. All they would have needed was either the ability to read, or to hear someone reading it out if they could not. It was not in a foreign language, it was written in the trade-language of the Roman Empire. So collapses your entire argument. It was readily avaliable.

No, it is not.

e. Most people couldn't read. Who read it out? The preists: exactly what the Roman Cathoilc Church (which was the Western Christian orthodoxy: that's what "catholic" means) wanted them to hear. (If this was different in Eastern Churches, like Russian Orthodox, then I wouldn't know.)

(Vide sub, points g, h & i.)

That was part of Martin Luthur's point with his 95 Theses which spurred the Protestant Reformation. (He subsequently translated the complete Bible into German in 1534 so everyone could read it).

f. If you want to talk about the Roman Empire, Christianity was outlawed until Constantine The Great convoked the Council of Nicaea (325CE). Not a lot of scripture reading at this time, then.

and based on a idealised re-creation of the actual events.

Why would eyewitnesses readily believe the message of the Disciples if they knew it was false, convert to a lie, and then die for a lie?

I was once a Communist, who believed that Stalin had not caused the deaths of 20 million Ukrainians by starving them to death in the 30's. In 2003, I was able to visit the country. Eyewitnesses reported that there had been a famine, and some of them even admitted to having been the ones who helped spread the famine. I was forced to change my view, because of the eyewitness acounts of dozens and dozens of people I met.

When I returned home, the Party I was a member of refused to believe my report, and I was asked to leave the party. Who would you have believed?

While I have obvious sympathies for the situation, I would give you a thought: you experienced first hand how an establishment is more interested in the political management of people than The Truth about the human costs of maintaining that system -- especially when it means they keep power. Truth is rarely convenient nor pleasant, especially where human politics is concerned. (Read Machiavelli's il Principe (The Prince) or even George Orwell's Animal Farm.)

The Reformation was a rebellion against the established Empire (y'know, the Holy Roman Empire).

Oh, btw, I have witnessed the Communist society first hand (before the Berlin Wall came down), which helped me understand why it is a marvelous philosophy in theory but completely fails to manage human frailties concerning (absolute) power and politics.

Not that many medieval europeans were conversant in ancient Greek

It took between 200 and 400 years for the greek of 100AD to become archaic. Eventually, the bible was translated into medieval German and English among others, just as the Catholic Church began to become more exclusive in who had access to the bible.

g. How many common people do you estimate could read? One of the largest libraries in Europe, before Gutenberg's printing press in 1450, had six books in it. How many years did peasant children attend school for? Do you know how many monks -- whose job was to hand copy the texts -- were illiterate? Exactly. That's why it was called the "Dark Ages".

h. The Bible was translated into German in 1534 (The King James Bible in 1611 -- for which translation Tyndall was burned at the stake). That's over a thousand years of people being told what the Church wanted to tell them. Authoritarian Popes who made up their own interpretations: heck, some Popes were polygamous! That's why the earlier scrolls are so important, why you are so interested in reading them. Because it skips back to an earlier source, winnowing away yet more layers of "interpretation". And also, co-incidentally, why the Church is tightly controlling the access to the scrolls, letting very few of the many, many people who would like to read them actually see them. (More evidence of that pattern.)

And as for the Gospels being written in Latin, the Roman Catholic Bible was latin until 1968.

Whats your point? It was one translation. There were millions of people who never came into contact with the Latin, and kept the Bible in greek.

i. The point is the pattern of instituionalised ignorance propounded by the Church on its laity in order to maintain control of the message (currently referred to as "spin" in politics) and therefore the audience. Which does not support your neat hypothesis that everyone throughout Chritendom's hsitory has always known exactly what happened two millenia ago. How would you explain the chasm of interpretation between conservative and progressive Christian thought? Who is interpreting the Bible incorrectly? If you can honestly answer that then you are brave.

 

Oh, btw, you're forgeting the Qumran Library, which was written in Ancient Greek, Hebrew and Aramaic between 300-68BCE, which is a little more relevant to our Old Testament discussion.

 

Why on earth would you think I had "forgotten" the Qumran Library? Hardly...being able to study those scrolls up close was one of the most memorable moments of my life...I didn't say anything about forgetting them, my friend. You mentioning them was a bit of a "rabbit trail".

 

Vide supra.

So did you read Hebrew, Ancient Greek or Aramaic? I must say I admire you language skills, I am restricted primarily to English and ordering coffee in a smattering of other languages. I am surprised you're allowed to talk about your research: I thought the Vatican Secret Service would be onto you! :-"

 

I'll get to the Genesis part of your argument later. Or, if you prefer, I'll just send a PM. If you prefer the latter, say so. Otherwise I'll keep our discussion in the public eye.

 

So long as this thread doesn't just become about Christianity. Oh, and try to address only a couple of points in each post: I for one am tired of scrolling through hundreds of lines of text to rebut your mistakes. :thumbsup:

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...

[snip]

...We were discussing the seismic shift of The Force being a force (small "f") versus this new concept of The Force having a Will, heralded by Kreia in KotOR2 (and I think our PC is told about it by Atris, just before the final sequences).

 

If you have an opinion on that, then let's hear it. Thank you.

 

Incredibly Childish? Hardly....succombed to the dark side of Internet slang from playing too much jka? Indeed.

 

And I was not aware that I was apart of a "professional debate", so excuse me for using slang and apparently not understanding what I'm talking about.

I merely saw a post, so I decided to jump in and contribute to the conversation.

I was under the impression that this was a forum about videogames, not a place for you to re-live the debating days of your youth...

 

And as to my knowledge of this subject matter, I don't specialise in it, not at all, but I have read books by, and met, a much more informed and intelligent man than you, on this subject. You may have heard of him, if you truly study this stuff out, maybe not. Douglas Jacoby. You should look him up and research some of his material.

 

 

Apology accepted.

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The Force is nature! Even in the OT, Obi-wan refered to its 'will'.

 

Nature has a will. It seeks balance. It will harm those that get in the way of its balance (refer to the rock analogy). The Jedi are basically the Druids of SW, trying to help the Force in its Balance, and doing what they can to be 'one' with it.

 

The Sith are like industrialistic loggers with 300 foot chainsaws. Their actions seriously throw the balance of the Force (ie Nature) out of proportion. If it was just a few little chainsaw people, then there would be a SLIGHT imbalance, but nothing too serious. Progress would still be made.

 

All evidence (even in Kotor II) points to this answer. If there is a fact I missed, I am sure that it will also fit in with no bias added. Kreia hates it for Revan's fall, and she also blames it for the Jedi and the Sith, and since she was 'tortured' by all of them, she hates them. Therefore, she goes back to the ONLY thing that they ALL have in common (as does every OTHER LIVING organism): The Force.

 

Read all of that post before you say anything criticizing it, okay?

Geekified Star Wars Geek

 

Heart of the Force, Arm of the Force

 

"Only a Sith deals in absolutes!"

-Obi-wan to Anakin (NOT advocating Grey-Jedidom)

 

"The Force doesn't control people, Kreia controls people."

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Nature has a will. It seeks balance. It will harm those that get in the way of its balance (refer to the rock analogy).

 

What's "nature," exactly? It has a will? Woah. Sounds bold. (rock analogy? Ah, found it, first page. Don't see what's up with "nature" and its "will" though.)

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Let me quote verbatim et literarium from the link, then:

The term "Judeo-Christian" is seen by some to imply a rejection of Islam, the third major monotheistic (Abrahamic) religion, though it is related to both.

The corollory of this is: this term is "Seen by some" or "Seen by some or many" as an inclusive term. Devout Muslims may be offended, none was intended and I apologise profusely if any offence has been taken. Of course if you look back at my original post, you will see that I was simply using a collective noun for the Abrahamic religions.

 

Attempt to disguise you error in any way you wish, it matters little. Your "collective noun" was a poor choice for someone so much higher on the english ladder...

 

Seeing as you easily tire of reading anything longer than a paragraph, I will agree to your request and post smaller bite-sized portions.

 

In the mean time, if it is your wish (as you stated) to keep this forum partially on topic, please also respond to my other Force-related posts too. That, at least, is a topic you have proved able to discuss intelligently, and I was interested in your posts so far.

 

I'm curious, when were you "behind the Iron Curtain?" was it before or after you graduated University?

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Or the Roman bias that leads modern Christians to mistakenly believe the Jewish political leaders wanted Jesus killed, and Pontius Pilate was just fulfilling their wishes. (The Jewish Rabis could have anyone stoned: it was their rite.

 

Here is a nice short post for you. Once again, you show your ignorance. Only one authority in Judea had the right to order an excecution, the Romans. Also, if you were more informed, you would have be aware that the Jewish leaders plotted several times to kill Jesus, yet feared the people. Finally, they were able to convince the Romans to do it, albeit grudgingly.

 

Evidence that I am right: Primary sources written by eyewitnesses.

 

Evidence that you are right: ...? Your really just a cynic at heart.

 

I do find your fist shaking at God humorously intriguing, almost as much as your mocking tone. I doubt you will be swayed by reason, seeing as you are entrenched in your own delusion. I also doubt you will let me have the last word in this argument, but no matter. I have enjoyed the exchange, despite the hostility (on both our parts), and am thankful for the freedom to live peacefully alongside people who are quite convinced everything I stand for is either a lie or delusion!

 

Have your last word if you will, and/or call my weariness for further debate a crushing defeat, I leave that to you.

 

As for The Force, let the debate continue...

 

Das Vydanya

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This is more significant than I believe anyone has mentioned yet.

 

If The Force has a Will of its own, then it is a God (equivalent to the Judea-Christian one).

 

Up until this point in time, Star Wars has implied that The Force is neither good nor bad, simply the sum of all life. If, indeed, The Force has a Will, then either:

 

it is a Good God and Good will triumph (Light Side), or

it is ultimately an Evil God and the universe ends in pain and suffering.

 

 

this has probably been mentioned .. but I'm too lazy to search 6 pages to see if that was the case..

 

first of all, just because, or even if, the Force has a will doesn't mean it's ultimately evil or good .. it can be both or neither!

 

It also means that an individual's free will is subsumed in the Will of the Force (so that they are all pawns of The Force).

 

Interestingly, this is one of the central dilemmas of Christian thought, as first illucidated by Saint Augistine: Free Chioce means that there must be some people who will choose evil and will therefore not be saved; if some people are doomed, then either God is not all knowing (didn't see it coming) or not all powerful (couldn't prevent it).

 

That argument is false .. since God may just as well not care, or ultimately let the decision belong to the human in question! if you choose to be evil you must face the consequence .. he still punishes you at the end, hence he is not without power to control you! you can't escape your ultimate destiny in Christianity .. it's either Heaven or Hell at the hand of God..

 

unless you view it like, since God is all knowing everything must be predetermined .. hence there is no free will!

but since every decision can have a multiple outcomes, you can also just say that God can see every outcome, and let's the ultimate decision be up to you .. hence you have a free will and God is still omniscient..

 

So, does The Force have a Will? Or is it just an energy form that binds us all together (and can be manipulated by carbon-based life forms with iron-based fluid called blood that transports nutrients and oxygen fuel around their bodies, together with midichlorians that enable them a degree of control over this Force)?

Free Will or Fate?  :devil:

 

I believe that the Force in SW is intented like the guiding hand .. the one that grants you the power to change your world .. and has a destiny for you that you can approach in different ways! so it's like a predetermined destination, that you can travel to by which ever road you like!

Fortune favors the bald.

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Scientology claims that the universe is the Mental Projection of the "Thetans", beings who exist in living things.  Scientologists believe that you can "make contact" with these creatures and use them as a guide.  A person who is able to do this becomes an "Operating Thetan".  It appears that Lucas has "modified" his Force to closely resemble a modern cult, maybe because he has shifted from a vaguely Christian Ethic to a more "New Age" one...

 

I think it was a poor choice on his part.  It made alot more sense when it was just Metadigital's "small f".

 

I still feel it is morally ambiguous to have a "Force" which now has a will, and always seeks to balance good and evil.  Perhaps Kreia was right to hate such a thing...

 

One thing seems sure, The Force sounds very close to a god now, rather than a latent power source.

 

So these Thetans (were they the big dudes in that terrible movieL Batlefield Earth?) are actually sentient beings? Large, multi-cellular organisms with their own politics and culture, their own moral compass and desires for the universe? And they control us?

 

Have I got this right? :devil:

 

I would just apply the old Occham's Razor to that over-complicated mess. Why is it necessary to invent another type of organism? And what is the difference between these beings and a generalistic polytheism, like Hinduism -- numbers? (Occham's razor tells us it is logically unsound to have a god, let alone lots of them. That doesn't mean God doesn't exist: it means you require faith to believe.)

 

I also agree it is morally ambiguous ... but then again the same can be said for montheism in general: does evil exist as a consequence of free choice, for the greater good -- or is it a symptom of a malevolent super-being? I can't answer that. :devil:

 

I do, however, much prefer the thought that The Force is just a force (small "f") that acts on every particle of matter (and therefore all energy) equally -- just like gravity.

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Nature has a will. It seeks balance. It will harm those that get in the way of its balance (refer to the rock analogy).

 

What's "nature," exactly? It has a will? Woah. Sounds bold. (rock analogy? Ah, found it, first page. Don't see what's up with "nature" and its "will" though.)

 

By this logic, gravity has a will: to attract all bodies according to their mass (an intrinsic qulity of all material things in our universe) and the inverse square of their distance apart.

 

Do you see?

 

I am not disagreeing with you, mind. I am just saying that your proposition rejects the notion that The Force (capital "F") has a Will (definition 1.a). By definition, to have a Will directly implies some sort of sentience. To exercise will means to exercise a choice: otherwise it is a reflex, Newtonian "Every action has an equal and opposite reaction" phenomena.

 

You are using "will" (small "w") as a synonym for the intrinsic, defining component of the force. In effect you are saying "The force (small "f") has a force that acts on things." You aren't really adding any clarity.

 

If I understand Kreia correctly, she has identified that The Force makes choices about how it applies force (small or captial "f"!). That is what defines a will. (Think of willpower.)

 

Perhaps some might choose, like her, to oppose that will. :devil:

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Nature has a will: It does what it wants, and you can TRY to stop it, but bad things happen.

 

The Force is just a supernatural description of this. Kreia IMPLIES that it is sentient, but since WHEN was believing what Kreia said healthy? She says what she wants others to hear, and ALWAYS hides the whole truth (or even lies outright).

 

Now, I'll let you continue your discussion of world religions compared to the Force, knowing that only Lucas (:devil:) can make that claim, and that SW was never meant to compare to any religion in real life. That, and I gotta go 2 sleep...

Geekified Star Wars Geek

 

Heart of the Force, Arm of the Force

 

"Only a Sith deals in absolutes!"

-Obi-wan to Anakin (NOT advocating Grey-Jedidom)

 

"The Force doesn't control people, Kreia controls people."

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I believe that the Force in SW is intented like the guiding hand .. the one that grants you the power to change your world .. and has a destiny for you that you can approach in different ways! so it's like a predetermined destination, that you can travel to by which ever road you like!

 

I agree up to the predetermined destination. It can only lead you to 'peaks', but then you must chose which mountain range to travel. It can, through your actions, lead you to an important point in time, and drop you off to choose. I suppose that it is just like a guiding hand in that aspect.

Geekified Star Wars Geek

 

Heart of the Force, Arm of the Force

 

"Only a Sith deals in absolutes!"

-Obi-wan to Anakin (NOT advocating Grey-Jedidom)

 

"The Force doesn't control people, Kreia controls people."

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Or the Roman bias that leads modern Christians to mistakenly believe the Jewish political leaders wanted Jesus killed, and Pontius Pilate was just fulfilling their wishes. (The Jewish Rabis could have anyone stoned: it was their rite.

 

[1]Here is a nice short post for you. Once again, you show your ignorance. Only one authority in Judea had the right to order an excecution, the Romans. Also, if you were more informed, you would have be aware that the Jewish leaders plotted several times to kill Jesus, yet feared the people. Finally, they were able to convince the Romans to do it, albeit grudgingly.

 

Evidence that I am right: Primary sources written by eyewitnesses.

 

Evidence that you are right: ...? Your really just a cynic at heart.

 

[2]I do find your fist shaking at God humorously intriguing, almost as much as your mocking tone. I doubt you will be swayed by reason, seeing as you are entrenched in your own delusion. I also doubt you will let me have the last word in this argument, but no matter. I have enjoyed the exchange, despite the hostility (on both our parts), and am thankful for the freedom to live peacefully alongside people who are quite convinced everything I stand for is either a lie or delusion!

 

Have your last word if you will, and/or call my weariness for further debate a crushing defeat, I leave that to you.

 

As for The Force, let the debate continue...

 

Das Vydanya

1. You agree with me and contradict yourself in the same sentence. Are you seriously saying that the Jewish leadership couldn't have people stoned? (It is reasonable that the fear of the public backlash might have caused them pause for thought), but the fact remains that crucifixion was a Roman punishment ... but I'd be interested to know what the Egyption papyrus version of events is .... :devil:"

 

2. Quite right! "I disgree with what you say, but I defend, to the death, your right to say it," as Francois Marie Arouet VOLTAIRE said. And I never said you believe in a lie or that you are delusional ... I merely am stating (uncomfortable) evidence that I have found in my travels through this world. I welcome any clarity you can provide, but remember religion does not require proof (it wouldn't be religion, then: it would be science!)

 

Oh, and you bet I'm a (cynical) skeptic (two Ancient Greek philosophers, co-incindentally). My method is to try to disprove a propostiion. If I fail, and fail to prove the converse, then logically the hypothesis stands. >_<

 

(I went to Moscow and Leningrad (as it was then, St Petersburg, now) before I went to university -- back before the 1980 Moscow Olympics, in fact.) :unsure:

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This is more significant than I believe anyone has mentioned yet.

If The Force has a Will of its own, then it is a God (equivalent to the Judea-Christian one).

Up until this point in time, Star Wars has implied that The Force is neither good nor bad, simply the sum of all life. If, indeed, The Force has a Will, then either:

it is a Good God and Good will triumph (Light Side), or

it is ultimately an Evil God and the universe ends in pain and suffering.

this has probably been mentioned .. but I'm too lazy to search 6 pages to see if that was the case..

[1] first of all, just because, or even if, the Force has a will doesn't mean it's ultimately evil or good .. it can be both or neither!

It also means that an individual's free will is subsumed in the Will of the Force (so that they are all pawns of The Force).

Interestingly, this is one of the central dilemmas of Christian thought, as first illucidated by Saint Augistine: Free Chioce means that there must be some people who will choose evil and will therefore not be saved; if some people are doomed, then either God is not all knowing (didn't see it coming) or not all powerful (couldn't prevent it).

[2] That argument is false .. since God may just as well not care, or ultimately let the decision belong to the human in question! if you choose to be evil you must face the consequence .. he still punishes you at the end, hence he is not without power to control you! you can't escape your ultimate destiny in Christianity .. it's either Heaven or Hell at the hand of God..

[3] unless you view it like, since God is all knowing everything must be predetermined .. hence there is no free will!

but since every decision can have a multiple outcomes, you can also just say that God can see every outcome, and let's the ultimate decision be up to you .. hence you have a free will and God is still omniscient..

 

So, does The Force have a Will? Or is it just an energy form that binds us all together (and can be manipulated by carbon-based life forms with iron-based fluid called blood that transports nutrients and oxygen fuel around their bodies, together with midichlorians that enable them a degree of control over this Force)?

Free Will or Fate?  >_<

[4]I believe that the Force in SW is intented like the guiding hand .. the one that grants you the power to change your world .. and has a destiny for you that you can approach in different ways! so it's like a predetermined destination, that you can travel to by which ever road you like!

 

Some interesting points.

1. This is entirely valid, although an apathetic god seems banal. And it doesn't remove the possiblity of the super-being taking control whenever and however, for whatever reason. (This is a world-view similar to the capricious Ancient Greek pantheon.)

2. Not necessarily true. Rasputin believed, for one example -- and I'm paraphrasing here -- that one should commit heinous acts of defilement for God to forgive you (sort of celestial exercise workout: no pain no gain!).

Also, one of the differences between the Anglican and Catholic dogma is that Catholics must actively repent; Anglicans are "automatically saved" for just believing in Jesus Christ. And the existence of Hell is theologically problematic, anyway: see the Epicurean Paradox.

And what about this Forcce (capital "F") -- does it have feelings, desires, goals, aspirations (for self acutalisation, for example)? And how are they expressed? Are they compatible with ours, or even comprehensible to us?

3. Exactly! But if we allow for Free Will (for us mortals) then it is possible to oppose God (however foolish than might be...!)

4. This is more interesting ... please expand a bit. :devil:

How does The Force guide you? Is it like a compass, that one refers to in order to travel to one's destination? Or is it a bit like, say, gravity -- even if you jump out of a plane at 15000 feet upside down, it will act on every particle of your body with uniform acceleration towards all bodies in a ratio with their mass and inversely with the square of their distance apart? (Such that you will travel at 9.8m/s/s towards planet Earth, which is rotating 1000km/k, and orbited/orbiting around the next most significant gravitational objects: the Moon and the Sun, etc.)

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I believe that the Force in SW is intented like the guiding hand .. the one that grants you the power to change your world .. and has a destiny for you that you can approach in different ways! so it's like a predetermined destination, that you can travel to by which ever road you like!

 

I agree up to the predetermined destination. It can only lead you to 'peaks', but then you must chose which mountain range to travel. It can, through your actions, lead you to an important point in time, and drop you off to choose. I suppose that it is just like a guiding hand in that aspect.

 

Okay, but to faciliate discussion you have to be clearer.

 

What do you mean by "lead"? Is it choosing how to appear to an individual? Given two beings in the same situation, will The Force act differently (capriciously) according to some internal (to The Force) Will -- or whimsey, or compass of its own?

 

And secondly, what do you mean by "drop you off"? :devil:

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Drop you off, as in leave you to make your own choices.

 

I'm not trying to facilitate a discussion. I gotta go to bed soon, and I just remembered that I had a big project that I needed to do before tomorrow.

 

Wait until 10:00 Eastern time... Then I'll have a whole hour for 'discussion'-ing. :devil:

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"Only a Sith deals in absolutes!"

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"The Force doesn't control people, Kreia controls people."

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Drop you off, as in leave you to make your own choices.

 

I'm not trying to facilitate a discussion. I gotta go to bed soon, and I just remembered that I had a big project that I needed to do before tomorrow.

 

Wait until 10:00 Eastern time... Then I'll have a whole hour for 'discussion'-ing. >_<

 

No hurry: I enjoy a meaningful exchange of ideas, as opposed to a violent exchange of expletives.

 

"Drop you off"? Where does it -- The Force -- go? For a take-away and a beer? Catch a late movie? Or does it sit by and take notes, waiting to step in in case the individual screws up ...

 

Think about it and get back to me when you've got more time.

 

Cheers. :devil:

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I will say one more thing: By 'lead' I mean that it will take you, via your choices to a destination. Say, you kill an old lady. This will take you to prison, and say there's a breakout. This is when the Force would 'drop you off', to either admit guilt and help the guards, or sieze your chance to escape, knowing that you murdered in cold blood, but wanting to live free all the same.

 

Or, you could help the old lady across the street instead. This could take you right to the scene of a bank robbery, where the Force would 'drop you off'. You could either help the cops and get people out of there, using your CPR knowledge on a wounded bystander, or you could grab a gun and sieze your share of the loot.

 

That is a VERY watered down version (granted, not very realistic, but my imagination is running wild after reading the storyline of PS:T, so thinking normal is tricky).

 

:ph34r:

 

Edit: And the Force is watching w/ a few friends and a couple of beers. :p Actually, it's aiding you in whatever choice you make, and then preparing to find another 'tragedy' that needs solved. Then, it will wait for somebody to make a certain set of choices that puts them in a position to do something. If one person is an invalid candidate, then the Force will try to facilitate. There, that can explain the sentience aspect, and still allow for balance (or lack thereof), and the Nature point to continue.

 

'Night! :ph34r:

Geekified Star Wars Geek

 

Heart of the Force, Arm of the Force

 

"Only a Sith deals in absolutes!"

-Obi-wan to Anakin (NOT advocating Grey-Jedidom)

 

"The Force doesn't control people, Kreia controls people."

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Some interesting points.

1.  This is entirely valid, although an apathetic god seems banal. And it doesn't remove the possiblity of the super-being taking control whenever and however, for whatever reason. (This is a world-view similar to the capricious Ancient Greek pantheon.)

 

2. Not necessarily true. Rasputin believed, for one example -- and I'm paraphrasing here -- that one should commit heinous acts of defilement for God to forgive you (sort of celestial exercise workout: no pain no gain!).

Also, one of the differences between the Anglican and Catholic dogma is that Catholics must actively repent; Anglicans are "automatically saved" for just believing in Jesus Christ. And the existence of Hell is theologically problematic, anyway: see the Epicurean Paradox.

And what about this Forcce (capital "F") -- does it have feelings, desires, goals, aspirations (for self acutalisation, for example)? And how are they expressed? Are they compatible with ours, or even comprehensible to us?

 

3. Exactly! But if we allow for Free Will (for us mortals) then it is possible to oppose God (however foolish than might be...!)

 

4. This is more interesting ...  please expand a bit.  :p

How does The Force guide you? Is it like a compass, that one refers to in order to travel to one's destination? Or is it a bit like, say, gravity -- even if you jump out of a plane at 15000 feet upside down, it will act on every particle of your body with uniform acceleration towards all bodies in a ratio with their mass and inversely with the square of their distance apart? (Such that you will travel at 9.8m/s/s towards planet Earth, which is rotating 1000km/k, and orbited/orbiting around the next most significant gravitational objects: the Moon and the Sun, etc.)

 

----

 

1. And we have seen, in the universe of SW, multiple beings trying to take ultimate power .. but thus being consumed by their own desire according to the well known quote of what power brings .. Is The Force involved? Who knows ..

 

2. Well Rasputin wasn

Fortune favors the bald.

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I will say one more thing: By 'lead' I mean that it will take you, via your choices to a destination. Say, you kill an old lady. This will take you to prison, and say there's a breakout. This is when the Force would 'drop you off', to either admit guilt and help the guards, or sieze your chance to escape, knowing that you murdered in cold blood, but wanting to live free all the same.

 

Or, you could help the old lady across the street instead. This could take you right to the scene of a bank robbery, where the Force would 'drop you off'. You could either help the cops and get people out of there, using your CPR knowledge on a wounded bystander, or you could grab a gun and sieze your share of the loot.

 

That is a VERY watered down version (granted, not very realistic, but my imagination is running wild after reading the storyline of PS:T, so thinking normal is tricky).

 

:ph34r:

 

Edit: And the Force is watching w/ a few friends and a couple of beers. :p Actually, it's aiding you in whatever choice you make, and then preparing to find another 'tragedy' that needs solved. Then, it will wait for somebody to make a certain set of choices that puts them in a position to do something. If one person is an invalid candidate, then the Force will try to facilitate. There, that can explain the sentience aspect, and still allow for balance (or lack thereof), and the Nature point to continue.

 

'Night! :ph34r:

 

Sounds to me like your describing an omnescient, omnipotent and omnipresent diety -- a God. It's sitting back, with unlimited patience, and helping individuals up to a crisis for them to choose (free will).

 

You've just described the Judeo-Christian God.

 

All you need to do now is garnish with omniscience: The Force knows what you will choose beforehand, and -- even if / when you choose poorly / Darkly -- will be there to help you at the next bifurcation in the space-time reality. (A Merciful God.)

 

Which is fine -- except it is vastly different to a gravity-like force (small "f"). :D

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Some interesting points.

[snippity snip]

 

----

1. And we have seen, in the universe of SW, multiple beings trying to take ultimate power .. but thus being consumed by their own desire according to the well known quote of what power brings .. Is The Force involved? Who knows ..

 

2. Well Rasputin wasn

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I will say one more thing: By 'lead' I mean that it will take you, via your choices to a destination. Say, you kill an old lady. This will take you to prison, and say there's a breakout. This is when the Force would 'drop you off', to either admit guilt and help the guards, or sieze your chance to escape, knowing that you murdered in cold blood, but wanting to live free all the same.

 

Or, you could help the old lady across the street instead. This could take you right to the scene of a bank robbery, where the Force would 'drop you off'. You could either help the cops and get people out of there, using your CPR knowledge on a wounded bystander, or you could grab a gun and sieze your share of the loot.

 

That is a VERY watered down version (granted, not very realistic, but my imagination is running wild after reading the storyline of PS:T, so thinking normal is tricky).

 

:ph34r:

 

Edit: And the Force is watching w/ a few friends and a couple of beers. :thumbsup: Actually, it's aiding you in whatever choice you make, and then preparing to find another 'tragedy' that needs solved. Then, it will wait for somebody to make a certain set of choices that puts them in a position to do something. If one person is an invalid candidate, then the Force will try to facilitate. There, that can explain the sentience aspect, and still allow for balance (or lack thereof), and the Nature point to continue.

 

'Night! :ph34r:

 

Sounds to me like your describing an omnescient, omnipotent and omnipresent diety -- a God. It's sitting back, with unlimited patience, and helping individuals up to a crisis for them to choose (free will).

 

You've just described the Judeo-Christian God.

 

All you need to do now is garnish with omniscience: The Force knows what you will choose beforehand, and -- even if / when you choose poorly / Darkly -- will be there to help you at the next bifurcation in the space-time reality. (A Merciful God.)

 

Which is fine -- except it is vastly different to a gravity-like force (small "f"). :D

 

Not quite what I was saying.

 

The Force is merely a reflection of life. It is a BIG mirror. It wants the same thing life wants. Its only 'emotions' are those that life has. Its only patience is what life has, as well.

 

The Force is am embodiment of all that is living. It isn't necessarily alive itself, but is a connection. Since it IS life, naturally it will act like it.

 

If life stayed single celled, then the Force would have too. But Life went and got a brain, and discovered "Hey, if I run this through an old lady, then she dies! FEEL THE POWER! I can take away life!" and other such emotions and morals. The Force, being an embodiment of life, had to follow suite, and also developed a form of sentience, but it is only a mirror. It wants balance (because it is a more powerful reflection of nature).

 

As for it guiding you: It will only follow along for the ride. It's more of a cause and effect thing; As you make choices, it 'determines' the eventual effects, and MAY (or may not) 'send' (via the Jedi) somebody to a critical point in the new timeline that was just created. BUT, there are THOUSANDS of MILLIONS of things like this going on, which is why only those that can also control the Force are likely the only ones that feel like they have a responsibility to preserve Balance and Peace.

 

Now, ask a more-than-average person what their favorite state of being is. Most people (if they actually dig in deep; I've had a teacher that did something like this at one point) will say Peace. Anything else is turmoil, or another taxing state, and can be quite uncomfortable. Nature (all of it) naturally seeks this peace and tranquility, which is also the Force's goal.

 

It's not good or evil, but a reflection of those that it touches. Each person can see it as something different, based on their personality (either something that can give you power: You'd be controlling the ONLY thing that ALL life has in common; or something that should be preserved and protected: once again, it's the ONLY thing that ALL life touches).

 

I still think that you shouldn't believe Kreia's reason for hating the Force. It is likely that she blamed it, because her tormentors were (rather coincidentally, I might add) those touched by, and could control, it. Kreia was quite like Ca

Geekified Star Wars Geek

 

Heart of the Force, Arm of the Force

 

"Only a Sith deals in absolutes!"

-Obi-wan to Anakin (NOT advocating Grey-Jedidom)

 

"The Force doesn't control people, Kreia controls people."

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