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Pah, Euro my ***. No, I'd rather we ditch the union and form a Scandinavian Union and Alliance!

 

Alliance :lol: isn;tthe dream of europe to unite as 1. and that the euro helps all to interrconnect more?

 

well no .. we are very different countries with different goals and desires! every country in Europe has a very strong sense of nationalism .. so being united under 1 banner and one name is more horrific than pleasing!

Fortune favors the bald.

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I think we should first define the terms we use before arguing.

 

What is the exact definition of Socialism and Capitalism in your opinion?

Do they really exist in their pure forms as some have argued here? I think not.

 

I can only speak of my own experiences, but, as like many others here, the country I'm living in is a Democracy (including a Constitution, separation of powers, free elections, freedom of opinion, etc).

The state is responsible for health care, pensions, education, welfare, etc. This is called "social", but this is not "Socialism" in our understanding.

Socialism is very different. There would be no freedom or private property, but dispossession and restrictive control.

 

In my country we have a model of competitive economy, too. We call it "social market economy" (you can guess what the "social" stands for).

But in Capitalism there wouldn't exist labour unions nor human rights, but dictation of industry and slavery.

 

In my opinion Socialism and Capitalism are only expamples of the many "-ism" words. They stand in a line with the extremes like Imperialism, Fascism, Fundamentalism and Communism. These are completely inhuman and/or their ideals are out of touch with reality.

"Jedi poodoo!" - some displeased Dug

 

S.L.J. said he has already filmed his death scene and was visibly happy that he

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Pah, Euro my ***. No, I'd rather we ditch the union and form a Scandinavian Union and Alliance!

 

Alliance :lol: isn;tthe dream of europe to unite as 1. and that the euro helps all to interrconnect more?

 

well no .. we are very different countries with different goals and desires! every country in Europe has a very strong sense of nationalism .. so being united under 1 banner and one name is more horrific than pleasing!

 

Exactly, I'm very skeptical of the EU as it is, and I certainly don't want the common currency, I find the EU to be way too dominated by France and Germany. As for the Alliance, I wouldn't mind leaving NATO for a Scandinavian Alliance, NATO members seems to only function as US attack dogs lately, I'm not very please with this development.

 

What causes me great displeasure is the fact that Swedes seems to have become obsessed with the EU! 70% of the times I see a Swedish car it's equipped with Euro plates, I've never even SEEN a Danish euro plate, and we've been in the Union far longer. :blink:

DENMARK!

 

It appears that I have not yet found a sig to replace the one about me not being banned... interesting.

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I don't want to quit NATO .. I think they play a major role in the world and one I would like us to have a say in!

 

but as far as EU .. I want to stay in the European Union, but I don't want us to be overheard simply because we have a smaller population, if it affects us we should have a say in it just like everyone else!

 

on top of that I would love a much closer relation to our northern borthers .. since we have so much more in common!

Fortune favors the bald.

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Pah, Euro my ***. No, I'd rather we ditch the union and form a Scandinavian Union and Alliance!

 

so would I actually .. but that is very unlikely and would be pretty difficult to pull off I think .. the problem is that they are letting the big nations get away with too much, but if they change that I would think EU is a great idea .. until then though! let's make a united Scandinavia!

 

I would love to see a Nordick union of nations, independent of the EU. That would be a dream, to me. The EU is corrupt and a nonsense of statism. Burn it down, I say. :cool:

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I wouldn't want to quit NATO either, only if a better solution was to present itself.

 

As for the EU, well I feel that like the currency (if we were to adopt it), we would drown in the masses of the central powers. (140 million people in France and Germany alone) It's hard for me to believe they don't want more of a say in matters than us. :lol:

 

Edit: Dark Something, yes it's a dream to me as well, though it will most likely also remain as such. But dreams ARE nice!

DENMARK!

 

It appears that I have not yet found a sig to replace the one about me not being banned... interesting.

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I find the EU to be way too dominated by France and Germany.

 

Not every nation can be as big as France, Germany, GB or Italy.

 

Denmark has 16 seats in the european parliament. Compared to the population Denmark has three times as much seats than Germany (81).

How many additional influence do you wish Denmark to have?

 

Edit: Whoops. I'm sorry, I forgot that they have changed the seat allocation last year. But they still have twice as much seats.

Edited by jedipodo

"Jedi poodoo!" - some displeased Dug

 

S.L.J. said he has already filmed his death scene and was visibly happy that he

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Pah, Euro my ***. No, I'd rather we ditch the union and form a Scandinavian Union and Alliance!

 

so would I actually .. but that is very unlikely and would be pretty difficult to pull off I think .. the problem is that they are letting the big nations get away with too much, but if they change that I would think EU is a great idea .. until then though! let's make a united Scandinavia!

 

I would love to see a Nordick union of nations, independent of the EU. That would be a dream, to me. The EU is corrupt and a nonsense of statism. Burn it down, I say. :cool:

 

Somethin like a club of the islands? :cool:

"Jedi poodoo!" - some displeased Dug

 

S.L.J. said he has already filmed his death scene and was visibly happy that he

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mu main grief is that the big nations of Europe aren't upholding their own laws .. for instance a country can't have a deficit under 3 procent .. but Germany had one at 2,8 .. France was worse (can't remeber the exact figure) but they never recieved a warning .. later when Germany passed the minimum, neither did they!

 

this is unaccaptle in my opinion .. and until such issues are resovled I think EU is a bad idea!

Fortune favors the bald.

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mu main grief is that the big nations of Europe aren't upholding their own laws .. for instance a country can't have a deficit under 3 procent .. but Germany had one at 2,8 .. France was worse (can't remeber the exact figure) but they never recieved a warning .. later when Germany passed the minimum, neither did they!

 

this is unaccaptle in my opinion .. and until such issues are resovled I think EU is a bad idea!

 

Yes, this is unacceptable. At least for Germany, a change of government will correct the current problems I think. In France I'm not so sure, maybe your griefs are warrantable there. :-

 

ps: it was a deficit *over* 3 procent of GDP

"Jedi poodoo!" - some displeased Dug

 

S.L.J. said he has already filmed his death scene and was visibly happy that he

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I know this will sound unfair to you, but I want my country to have just as much a say as any other nation, regardless of their size, and if I can't have it I'd rather not be part of it. :-

DENMARK!

 

It appears that I have not yet found a sig to replace the one about me not being banned... interesting.

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mu main grief is that the big nations of Europe aren't upholding their own laws .. for instance a country can't have a deficit under 3 procent .. but Germany had one at 2,8 .. France was worse (can't remeber the exact figure) but they never recieved a warning .. later when Germany passed the minimum, neither did they!

 

this is unaccaptle in my opinion .. and until such issues are resovled I think EU is a bad idea!

Teething problems. Nothing to worry about. They'll get the rules right soon.

 

The poor European Union, it's so easy to bash it (so much of the criticism is justified, too). But I still love it, and want to make it better. I'm a citizen of Europe.

 

If the UK votes to leave the European Union, I know which side of the Channel I'll being staying.

"An electric puddle is not what I need right now." (Nina Kalenkov)

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I know this will sound unfair to you, but I want my country to have just as much a say as any other nation, regardless of their size, and if I can't have it I'd rather not be part of it.  :)

 

This is called a good democrat. ;)

"Jedi poodoo!" - some displeased Dug

 

S.L.J. said he has already filmed his death scene and was visibly happy that he

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Teething problems.  Nothing to worry about.  They'll get the rules right soon.

 

The poor European Union, it's so easy to bash it (so much of the criticism is justified, too).  But I still love it, and want to make it better.  I'm a citizen of Europe.

 

If the UK votes to leave the European Union, I know which side of the Channel I'll being staying.

 

as I said .. I really want it to work too! but I don't want it in a broken state .. that hurts Europe more than it helps!

 

and while it's teething problems it still have rather huge ramifications .. so maybe we should hire a better dentist! :)

Fortune favors the bald.

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I know this will sound unfair to you, but I want my country to have just as much a say as any other nation, regardless of their size, and if I can't have it I'd rather not be part of it.  :)

 

This is called a good democrat. ;)

 

Don't think I have anything against Germans or something, I'm very interested in German history (WW2 aside, I'm tired of reading about it) and language, if only I could speak it, I was too lazy back school I guess. ;)

DENMARK!

 

It appears that I have not yet found a sig to replace the one about me not being banned... interesting.

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I know this will sound unfair to you, but I want my country to have just as much a say as any other nation, regardless of their size, and if I can't have it I'd rather not be part of it.  :)

 

This is called a good democrat. ;)

 

Don't think I have anything against Germans or something,

Of course, why should you. ;)

 

I'm very interested in German history (WW2 aside, I'm tired of reading about it) and language, if only I could speak it, I was too lazy back school I guess.  ;)

But you can read it?

 

 

I'm pro Europe (and pro Denmark, too).

The important thing for me is, that the EU isn't pushed to grow together too fast and "over the heads" of the citizens. It must be given the time it needs and it'll work sometime.

"Jedi poodoo!" - some displeased Dug

 

S.L.J. said he has already filmed his death scene and was visibly happy that he

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I'm pro Europe (and pro Denmark, too).

The important thing for me is, that the EU isn't pushed to grow together too fast and "over the heads" of the citizens. It must be given the time it needs and it'll work sometime.

I agree, there's a danger that the civil servants in Brussels are trying to do too much too fast. I'm also worried that they want to harmonise too much, making everything uniform across the whole community. I always thought that diversity was the great strength of Europe: so many languages and cultures conflicting and co-operating.

 

What the EU needs most of all is to allow Turkey to join. That will kill off the idea that we're headed fast towards a bland everyone-the-same future, and more respect will be given to all member states. Then we can slow down and relax a bit.

"An electric puddle is not what I need right now." (Nina Kalenkov)

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I agree, there's a danger that the civil servants in Brussels are trying to do too much too fast.  I'm also worried that they want to harmonise too much, making everything uniform across the whole community.  I always thought that diversity was the great strength of Europe: so many languages and cultures conflicting and co-operating.

 

What the EU needs most of all is to allow Turkey to join.  That will kill off the idea that we're headed fast towards a bland everyone-the-same future, and more respect will be given to all member states.  Then we can slow down and relax a bit.

 

not until they actually respect human rights .. but the moment they do the door is open!

Fortune favors the bald.

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Think twice, Rosbjerg. It's another big country, currently with more citizens than France and also more than Germany in about thirty years. :wub:

"Jedi poodoo!" - some displeased Dug

 

S.L.J. said he has already filmed his death scene and was visibly happy that he

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heh .. caught me in my own words.. damn!

 

okay .. fix Europe .. then fix Turkey (awful name in English) .. then let them join .. better world for everyone!! :D

Fortune favors the bald.

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Turkey's human rights record is no worse than the UK's human rights record in Northern Ireland when we were allowed to join.

 

Fixing human rights may take time, but progress is being made, largely because the prospect of EU membership is on offer. When Turkey does join, that will cement the progress that has been made and probably speed it up.

 

And the idea that Turkey has human rights problems and we don't isn't very accurate. Where in Europe do the Roma receive fair treatment?

"An electric puddle is not what I need right now." (Nina Kalenkov)

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I think the EU is a twisted little thing. There is no need for it, as I see it, not as a counterbalance to US or anything else. Trade will flourish with or without it. It does nothing to further a sense of unity either, we will forever be Frenchmen, Germans and Swedes.

 

Withteeth posed some questions I would like to try and answer briefly, because plenty of other Scandinavians have replied similarly.

 

1) Rosbjerg covered this nicely, we earn more and pay more, basically. You have the rights to a minimum wage whether you are organized or not. And one is not ostracized by the employer for being organized.

 

2) In Norway, all education is free, even at University level. Unless you go to some private institution, of course. You do not pay to be in school. I do not have to pay a single kr to my University to be allowed to attend. However, the Student Union demands that each student pays a small fee per semester in order for the Union to cover working expenses of running student gyms, kindergartens, cafeterias, dormitories etc. This fee is 395NOK per semester, equalling approximately $40.

 

Effectively, an entire year in College will cost $80. Compare this to US policy.

 

In addition to this, students who live away from home (as in the house of their Primary family) get good conditions for a students loan.

 

3) As stated, the emplyer must always pay the minimum wage. This subject was also covered nicely by Rosbjerg and the other Scandinavians here.

 

And, just to clarify, our government is not socialist, but social democratic. In Norway, as in the rest of Europe, a turn to the right has become evident. This is not necessarily a bad thing, but I sure haven't noticed anything good come from it in my own nation. A so called "quality reform" has been introduced for higher education, which limits the time a student can spend on his subject. This means that both doctor candidates and masters candidates have less time to make their theses, which in my mind will sooner or later be harmful for research and science. I do not know how the situation is in Denmark and Sweden, but the populist, American modelled parties here are actually scaring me a bit. "LOWER TAXES!" "GET THE IMMIGRANTS OUTTA HERE!"

 

However, as it is now, the red-green parties are shaping up very well for the elections. With our parliamentary system, an alliance of this nature will mean a social democratic overweight in parliament. This is a good thing! :wub:

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Turkey's human rights record is no worse than the UK's human rights record in Northern Ireland when we were allowed to join.

 

Fixing human rights may take time, but progress is being made, largely because the prospect of EU membership is on offer.  When Turkey does join, that will cement the progress that has been made and probably speed it up.

 

And the idea that Turkey has human rights problems and we don't isn't very accurate.  Where in Europe do the Roma receive fair treatment?

 

This is not a essay against Turkey or something, but some problems can't be wiped away that easy as you did, I think.

 

They do have conflicts with every neighbouring state.

Not to mention the numerous inner problems, the problem with the Kurds is only the most obvious one.

They cultivate a strange form of Nationalism concerning the role of Turkey as the heir of the Ottoman Empire. Only for example, is there any rational reason why the Turkish officials euphemise the circumstances of the displacement of the Armenian population by the Ottoman Empire about 90(!) years ago?

 

Human rights can pass parliament, but what is written down in black and white isn't necessarily true.

"Jedi poodoo!" - some displeased Dug

 

S.L.J. said he has already filmed his death scene and was visibly happy that he

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They do have conflicts with every neighbouring state.

Not to mention the numerous inner problems, the problem with the Kurds is only the most obvious one.

They cultivate a strange form of Nationalism...

Like a great many countries in Europe, at the point when they joined the European Union and maybe even today.

 

I do take your point, and I don't want to sweep Turkey's human rights abuses under the carpet. What I'm saying is that it's a mistake to demand that all the changes take place before Turkey joins. Instead, membership itself will help improve the situation, and that's what everyone wants. Europe made a mistake in waiting 15 years after the fall of communism to admit Eastern European countries, demanding that they get their economies right before joining. Europe should be as inclusive as possible.

 

I don't think that includes letting any country or leader get away with something as offensive as denying the Armenian genocide.

"An electric puddle is not what I need right now." (Nina Kalenkov)

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