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Ok, so what's the deal with Darth Nihilus?


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Maybe I've overlooked something, though I doubt it, but it seems Darth Nihilus is somehow a completely forgettable character in the game...

 

He (or is it a she? It could be...) seems all powerful and menacing in the beginning, but seems to serve no purpose at all beyond setting up a few plot points for Kreia and Visas... And once you do confront him, it's over after a lightsaber battle and a few throwaway comments.

 

I was rather unpleasantly surprised that he didn't seem to serve much of a plotwise purpose at all - he had far more potential...

 

Heck, maybe Nihilus could even have been the evil Revan if he had been tougher... Wouldn't that have been a twist? :)

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Maybe I've overlooked something, though I doubt it, but it seems Darth Nihilus is somehow a completely forgettable character in the game...

 

He (or is it a she? It could be...) seems all powerful and menacing in the beginning, but seems to serve no purpose at all beyond setting up a few plot points for Kreia and Visas... And once you do confront him, it's over after a lightsaber battle and a few throwaway comments.

 

I was rather unpleasantly surprised that he didn't seem to serve much of a plotwise purpose at all - he had far more potential...

 

Heck, maybe Nihilus could even have been the evil Revan if he had been tougher... Wouldn't that have been a twist?  :)

I thought he was revan at first - he's got the same build and height

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Just a consequence of either a changed story or just fooled by pre-release marketing (ie, the main logo).

For instance from the flash animations, I thought Atris was the LS choice for a player, and Nihilus the DS outcome, since they made such an effort to line up the eyes and sabers for the fading.

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I thought Atris would become Nihilus when I first saw the promotional images. They made such an important point about being careful how you influence your party members, so I thought that that indicated: if you're not good to Atris, she'll turn to the dark side.

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i think the promo posters with Atris and him in were made when both served a larger role in the game but as there were time constraints both there parts were cut down. I know Atris' was from these boards bcoz there are sound files in the pc version of her saying things Kreia says. I think it could be the same for Nihilus.

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Yah, trickery or false impressions from the promos aside, I think they set up Nihilus to be a ravenous destroyer of life who was weak against the Exile, due to the Exile's connection to the echo in the force and Malachor, which spawned Nihilus.

 

So basically, when Nihilus is facing his "creator," especially when he tries to drain away his life, his "uber" powers are very limited.

 

Yah, kind of anti-climactic, but I think it kinda sets the tone about this different plotline: how the Echo and Malachor has to be faced and reconciled (or mastered) by the Exile.

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Yeah Nihilus was retarded... I killed him in like two flurries, and you couldn't do anything with his mask... I think sith soldiers put up a better fight...

 

Agreed, though I guess I could have lived with his puny fighting abilities if he had at least served a purpose plotwise... I mean, I really expected a major revelation - like he was one of the Exile's Jedi lieutenants from Malachor or such.

 

But instead he just dies, Visas takes his mask, and we never even get to see what's behind the mask :blink:

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For a really psychidellic take, it would have been cool if he were your echo, a doppleganger spawned in the Force from the pain you experienced at Malacore.

 

So when Visas removed the mask, it would have been your face that she saw. The face of her tormentor, the face that destroyed her world was yours.

 

If that were the case, it would have made more sense that the Jedi Masters saw you as the Death of the Force. In fact, "you" (as Nihilas) would have been just that. So their fears and worries would be justified...

 

From a certain point of view. :)

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I was also of the opinion Nihilus was Revan for a long time, but getting closer to the point where I first fought him (i.e. in my first run through the game) an alternate theory came to me...

 

I thought maybe Nihilus was the Exile.

 

Now before you start calling me an idiot. hear me out.

 

The two were 'wounded' in very much the same way as a result of the cataclysmic events at Malachor 5.

So I got to thinking.. maybe the wound in the force echoed within the Exile, being the perpertrator of events, his/her connection to the force was ripped away in that moment... and in some way the part of his/her essence that *was* the wound took on physical form, becoming Nihilus. The Exile is spiritually wounded, as part of her has been torn from the core of her being, and Nihilus IS the wound, consisting of every part of her being that she has lost, every part she is unable to face. The two are unwittingly seeking each other out to be reunited, the Exile is the part that could reconcile to the human that he/she had been, and Nihilus represents what would happen if she gave into oblivion.

 

They become flipsides of the same coin... the Exile like a parasite upon those around her, weaving their personalities and forming symbiotic bonds with them, (and if you go DS, even absorbing the essence of those she slays, much like Nihilus). Nihilus is the hollow thing he/she might become, feeding hungrily on the essence of all sensitives he finds, slaying everything in a desperate need to live, long enough perhaps to find the other part of him, and then what.. absorb the Exile? Then absorb all life?

 

As the Exile is met by Kreia and her connection to the force increases, Nihilus becomes aware of her existence once more, and has to find her, till then he had just been a predator not knowing why he did what he did, merely doing it because he must. So, the two are slowly drawn together again for a confrontation.

 

Whichever wins determines the fate of the galaxy as they have become inextricably entwined. if Nihilus wins all die, the echo becomes so loud it causes the death of the Force. if The Exile wins, she becomes whole again, and she and the galaxy may begin to heal. And then there was the whole... well who wins and how. It seemed beleif was critical to the storyline here, so a physical battle is irrelevant... the point is Nihilus would succeed if the Exile gave in to apathy. If the Exile had strong conviction, either to serve the light or the dark, or even to follow her own path, then Nihilus will fail, and the Exile will reforge her spirit anew, stronger than ever before as she has learned to exist without the force. If however she chooses oblivion then she and Nihilus join to become the most terrible thing to ever face the galaxy. And THAT was what i thought Kreia was trying to show the Exile.

 

I mean the evidence is fairly good:

1) Nihilus piloting a broken battlecruiser from the Malachor V graveyard. I was even thinking the ship was going to turn out to be the Exiles own command during the war.

2) The Nihilus like powers a DS player shows when slaying Jedi Masters. (Haven't played it LS fully yet cos Dantooine keeps crashing on me *groans* still this is not about THAT can of worms. )

3) Nihilus 'becoming one with the force', well maybe Nihilus never truly existed, and once the exile had defeated him, his physical form decayed.

4) not really evidence, but that thing with Visas looking at the body and saying she saw 'Just a man' smacked to me of something unsaid, like she was hiding something from the Exile. Then again maybe I am just running with the ideas I had in my head at the time.

 

Which brings me to the original point made which was the difference between what it was being suggested Nihilus part might be and what he actually turned out to be. which was an average opponent, fairly unimportant to the plot. Something never added up with him for me, I'm fairly sure there was intended to be more explanation, everything seemed to be building up to their battle, like it was not just a meeting of two Masters of the Force, but rather the completion of some great cycle.

 

Or maybe just like many others i thought he had so much more potential

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With all the nods to the previous SW movies, I think it would be kinda cool if the player's face was under the Nihilus mask, reminiscent of the "Empire Strikes Back" scene.

 

:thumbsup:

 

I never really thought about it like that until this post. Danke for the brain fuel.

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The "Nihilus = evil Exile" story would have been a bit obvious and was done before. Maybe they didn't want to go that way, because they would have been criticised for using such a story again.

 

If they ever had that idea that is...

 

To an extent, yeah they may have been wary of that. But as a counter point, try and pick a story that hasn't been 'done before'. there's around a dozen story archetypes you can narrow most tales down to. The whole KOTOR1 story with the player being Revan has been 'done before' but that didn't stop it being great, because they built it up right, they implemented the story in a well crafted way.

 

And further, I'd have thought it was more about life and death, existence and oblivion, empathy or apathy. I mean the Exile can be evil or good if you want to divide things up that way. Nihilus is just empty, I didn't get the impression anything he did was becuase of evil intent. he was simply hunger personified.

 

I was seeing the whole thing more as symbolic of the Exile's reconciliation of what was done at Malachor 5. Does she accept she went too far and decide to use her powers for the protection of others again. or does she stand by her decision and discard her guilt once and for all, decidng might makes right and if the galaxy's fate is at stake she will do anything to maintain order. The alternative being give into the hollow echo in the force she created and do. NOTHING. Become nothing, just like Nihilus and let it happen.

 

If you want to narrow the story down to its consituent parts, in a lot of ways its a mixture of the heroes journey and the prodigal son, with a little smattering of Gawain and The Green Knight. The point with many creative endeavours, especially in the roleplay environment is that many things have already been done many times. the point is when you do it, can you do it justice? I got the feeling, up to a point that Obsidian had it in them to do something like that, indeed there were many pointers that suggested that was a likely resolution. Then for the last 2-3 hours of gameplay it all fell to bits becuase it was obviously rushed.. suddenly the questions which had almost been answered were left unresovled, or alternatively there was no confirmation of the suspicions that everything else had raised. it was like they were signposting to a huge outdoor rock concert all the way through the story then suddenly they cancelled the concert a half mile before you got there, and stuck on some jugglers and a one man band.

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Yes, I like the idea that Nihilus is sort of the "evil Exile" or more like the "nihilistic Exile", since an evil Exile would be the dark side character you can choose to play.

 

I don't so much like the idea of letting Nihilus having the Exile's face, though. For one thing it has been done before, and I never care much for that sort of ploy. I mean, Nihilus still needs an intelligence behind him/it/whatever to command the fleet, give Visas orders, hunt down the Jedi, etc. Also, Nihilus betrayed Kreia by making an alliance with Sion, and that has some requirements. Considering how sly and manipulative Kreia is, I would hurt the story if Sion just throws his interests with a person who is just an empty void of nothingness and non-intelligence.

 

But I do agree that Nihilus must definitely be tied to the Exile in some form, and given how the Exile is good at forming bonds to other people, I thought he would turn out to be someone the Exile knew well and who died on Malachor. I had a vision of the Exile's brother or best friend or some such (I'd say secret love, except the plot seems to reserve that place for Atris).

 

It should also be someone pivotal to the Exile's decision on Malachor, which is why I mentioned one of the Exile's lieutenants in my last post. It would have been really cool if Nihilus had been the Exile's master or apprentice. I kept having this vision of the Exile seeing this person killed on Malachor and dying in his/her arms, and that was then the very point where the Exile made the choice to deny the force and create the wound in the force - the pain of seeing someone so close die would be so powerful that even the force itself would be swayed by it, and so the Exile could make a choice to step away from his/her fate.

 

However, it was, as Kreia puts it, an escape - the Exile fled the consequences of what his/her choices had made him/her into and just left it all behind. This creates the wound in the force, but because the Exile denies this, some of himself/herself is stranded on Malachor and must exist in some other form. Instead it takes the fallen friend that is the focus of the Exile's torment and uses his body (and intellect) as a vessel for the wound and pain that the Exile has denied.

 

I find that as a story plot this would have been rather powerful, since it would have forced the Exile to face what the choices on Malachor had done to his/her friend and how the Exile cannot escape the consequences of his/her choices and experiences on Malachor. It would also have been powerful to have the Exile come face to face with what his/her choice/flight/escape from reality had done to his/her old friend and made him into, as it would basically mean that the Exile's decision has forced the friend to become a dark and empty shell burdened by the Exile's own guilt and denial.

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I mean, Nihilus still needs an intelligence behind him/it/whatever to command the fleet, give Visas orders, hunt down the Jedi, etc. Also, Nihilus betrayed Kreia by making an alliance with Sion, and that has some requirements. Considering how sly and manipulative Kreia is, I would hurt the story if Sion just throws his interests with a person who is just an empty void of nothingness and non-intelligence.

 

Yeah good point..

Ok, in defense of the theory in many respects Nihil could have an intellect based originally upon the Exiles, and then maybe a gestalt of everything he has absorbed... Not in a omniscient uberconsciusness way, more that the original kernel of the Exiles psyche that existed in him was bolstered by the absorption of other force sensitives.. maintaining a shred of humanity with which he can comprehend others around him. But in many ways I see him as not... lacking intellect, but just that he works on a scale that is so huge he is hard to define in 'human' terms. Through his understanding of the force he sees the fleet, and those piloting each vessel, those working on each aspect of running the show as extensions of his will. Whether the Sith that fight for him do so out of loyalty or fear, or because he controls them like a puppet, matters not, because he is close to becoming a god. or perhaps the antithesis of one.

 

hmm thats a thought, maybe the part of the Exile's essence that was torn from him absorbed the essence of many of the Jedis that died at Malachor 5, which would go a long way to explaining how such a being might have formed from 'nothing', and have come to be so powerful in such a short time. He's kind of like the death scream of Malachor and every living being, and more importantly, Jedi (many of whom would also have been fallen) that was on the surface, personified through the lost part of the Exiles own essence. He's become aware in that moment firstly on a global scale, and exists only to recreate that. Born of oblivion, his purpose becomes to bring oblivion to all worlds, and as more worlds fall his awareness becomes wider, until, as Visas says, he no longer senses things on an individual scale. He sees the galaxy, he sees all this life and he wants to feed on it, because he hungers for more power, as much as he is oblivion, he can't truly die because he's tied to the Exile, so he will consume everything until there is nothing left, unless the Exile gets to him first and makes him part of herself again.

 

Again this just points out to em how much better Nihil could have been :p

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he can't truly die because he's tied to the Exile, so he will consume everything until there is nothing left, unless the Exile gets to him first and makes him part of herself again.

 

Exactly.

 

Think of the possible endings that would open up.

 

1. Current storyline: Visas sees your face as the face of her tormentor, says he was "Just a man. Nothing more." and leaves with you. When you crash on Malacore, she leaves the group and joins Kreia and Sion knowing that the only way that Nihilas will stay dead is your own death, and also knowing that she is not powerful enough to kill you on her own.

 

2. Alternate Endings w/Nihilas as end boss.

 

a. Like the dual with Sion, this would be a battle of wills, filled with banter between each round. And would have multiple resolutions.

 

- Accepting your role in the war, defeating Nihilas, by resolving your inner guilt and healing the echo. Result: The Exile defeats Nihilas and the two become one again.

 

- Accepting your role in the war, defeating Nihilas physically, but losing to him in the battle of wills, and not healing the echo. With everyone celebrating Nihilas' defeat, you realize from your talks with him that he will never truly die as long as you live. With that in mind, you leap into the core of Malacore, ending your life.

 

- Dark Side: With Nihilas' empty robes and mask lying at your feet, you make a decision not to resolve the pain and anger, but to embrace it. Picking up the mask, you place it on your own face, as your DS-aligned companions one by one drop to one knee. (Or conversely as your stunned companions ignite their lightsabers around you... and the next shot shows you walking from the inner sanctum of the temple, the bodies of your dead traitorous companions lying on the floor behind you.)

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I was rather unpleasantly surprised that he didn't seem to serve much of a plotwise purpose at all - he had far more potential...

 

Heck, maybe Nihilus could even have been the evil Revan if he had been tougher... Wouldn't that have been a twist?  :o

From all the promos I thought Atris and Nihilus would be the two extremes your character could go. Did you ever see the animating flash which fades between Atris and Nihilus with the perfectly lined up saber and face/eyes.

 

Now I just think he's a Selkath in disguise :)

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For a really psychidellic take, it would have been cool if he were your echo, a doppleganger spawned in the Force from the pain you experienced at Malacore.

 

So when Visas removed the mask, it would have been your face that she saw. The face of her tormentor, the face that destroyed her world was yours.

 

If that were the case, it would have made more sense that the Jedi Masters saw you as the Death of the Force. In fact, "you" (as Nihilas) would have been just that. So their fears and worries would be justified...

 

From a certain point of view.  :o

 

I so wish that was as it had been. It's a real shame :)

 

-Ben

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he can't truly die because he's tied to the Exile, so he will consume everything until there is nothing left, unless the Exile gets to him first and makes him part of herself again.

 

Exactly.

 

Think of the possible endings that would open up.

 

1. Current storyline: Visas sees your face as the face of her tormentor, says he was "Just a man. Nothing more." and leaves with you. When you crash on Malacore, she leaves the group and joins Kreia and Sion knowing that the only way that Nihilas will stay dead is your own death, and also knowing that she is not powerful enough to kill you on her own.

 

2. Alternate Endings w/Nihilas as end boss.

 

a. Like the dual with Sion, this would be a battle of wills, filled with banter between each round. And would have multiple resolutions.

 

- Accepting your role in the war, defeating Nihilas, by resolving your inner guilt and healing the echo. Result: The Exile defeats Nihilas and the two become one again.

 

- Accepting your role in the war, defeating Nihilas physically, but losing to him in the battle of wills, and not healing the echo. With everyone celebrating Nihilas' defeat, you realize from your talks with him that he will never truly die as long as you live. With that in mind, you leap into the core of Malacore, ending your life.

 

- Dark Side: With Nihilas' empty robes and mask lying at your feet, you make a decision not to resolve the pain and anger, but to embrace it. Picking up the mask, you place it on your own face, as your DS-aligned companions one by one drop to one knee. (Or conversely as your stunned companions ignite their lightsabers around you... and the next shot shows you walking from the inner sanctum of the temple, the bodies of your dead traitorous companions lying on the floor behind you.)

 

 

Gee, now I'm actually sad it didn't end like that...

 

Still, very compelling story twist. I particularly like how brings some resolution to the Nihilus/Visas relationship, which was curiously lacking or absent in the game.

 

Well done - Influence gained :)

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