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This probably should be a poll, but I made it a topic anyway.

 

The KOTOR characters were put into the official canonical Database at starwars.com. I was wondering if we should ask them to include Kotor II characters... They don't interfere with any other articles, and they support KOTOR I.

 

Should we ask them to put it up, and who should they include?


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Heart of the Force, Arm of the Force

 

"Only a Sith deals in absolutes!"

-Obi-wan to Anakin (NOT advocating Grey-Jedidom)

 

"The Force doesn't control people, Kreia controls people."

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And say what, exactly? As far as I can tell, there's dozens of theories about what actually happened. Wouldn't be a whole lot to say even before you've managed to filter out the things prone to changes (you'll see the entries on KotOR1 are rather slim because of the different possibilities).

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Yes, but they're there. I learned quite a bit about Zaalbar, I think it was. Besides, if it's there, then nobody can argue about it being canon.


Geekified Star Wars Geek

 

Heart of the Force, Arm of the Force

 

"Only a Sith deals in absolutes!"

-Obi-wan to Anakin (NOT advocating Grey-Jedidom)

 

"The Force doesn't control people, Kreia controls people."

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If it were to be added to the databank, it should be added merely for the sake of being canon. The databank people just copy and paste off the Lucasarts character descriptions and give it a new page in the databank.

 

They set an important precedent in K1 though-the SF was destroyed, meaning for canonical purposes Revan was LS.

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What have I been saying for the past week????????????????


Geekified Star Wars Geek

 

Heart of the Force, Arm of the Force

 

"Only a Sith deals in absolutes!"

-Obi-wan to Anakin (NOT advocating Grey-Jedidom)

 

"The Force doesn't control people, Kreia controls people."

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No, they shouldn't put K2 over in the databank, imo. K2 was too unfinished and there were too many plot-holes and the fate of the characters was too vague and glossed over for the sake of completion.

 

And if you thought canonizing Revan was tough, try canonizing the Exile. A character with not only no official gender, no official alignment, and no official look, but also no official name.

 

How would they even begin to explain all of that and also try to somehow streamline all the possible outcomes of his or her fate. >_<

 

Plus, let's face it. K2 was not in the Star Wars tradition. I liked the game but, it just didn't feel like Star Wars.

I don't think that powers that be over at Lucasfilm (even though I understand that they approved everything we saw in K2) would want to include Mira, Atton, Handmaiden, Disciple, Bao-Dur, etc. in their database because of the way OE wrote those characters.

 

They were all Force Sensitives with the ability to become double-bladed lightsaber weilding badasses through the course of one conversation. That's just not Star Wars. Becoming a Jedi is supposed to be the most difficult thing that someone can aspire to be. And then only a select few are chosen at childbirth to be raised in the Jedi ways from infancy.

 

And all of you out there saying, "Well, what about Luke Skywalker? He only trained for a few weeks before going to confront Vader???" People, Luke Skywalker was, for all intents and purposes, the son of the Sith'ari. It has been stressed time and time again how UNUSUAL AND ABNORMAL it was for Luke to be trained as an adult. And the only reason he was successful was because of the stupifyingly powerful connection to the Force that he had, which he inherited from his father, THE DARK LORD OF THE SITH. There is no comparison whatsoever on that front.

 

So, unless you're telling me that Atton, Mira, etc. are all descended from some ancient Dark Lord or some powerful old Jedi Master or something, then I don't really jive with the fact that they can all be converted.

 

The only way this could have worked, IMO, was if the story was ABOUT these Force Sensitives. For example, if Kreia's goal all along had nothing to do with destroying the Force, but had everything to do with hunting down and finding these Adepts because they were all the progeny of some ancient Dark Lord. Kinda like what I said above.

 

In this way it would be similar to the BG games where, just as in that series the focus is the progeny of the God of Murder, in K2 it would have been about the progeny of some uber-badass from a long time ago. Which meant that the next chosen Dark Lord was most likely one of your apprentices. And they are all drawn to you because of your wound and your ability to draw people to you.

 

This would pretty much re-write the entire story as it would really have nothing to do with the first game and whether the Jedi were there or in hiding wouldn't be the main focus of the story. As it stands right now, Traya does tell you that your companions are the true lost Jedi, but that wasn't the main focus of the story.

If it was then I would say K2 would've had a good chance to be canonized.

 

But in it's current form? No.

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When something is in database isn't cannon..

 

In my opinion cannon is only what is in movies.

 

Everything else is just for fun.


And by the light of the moon

He prays for their beauty not doom

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When something is in database isn't cannon..

 

In my opinion cannon is only what is in movies.

 

Everything else is just for fun.

 

Well like it or not, the EU is canon. Well, most of it, apart from the blatantly apocryphical and ridiculous stuff.

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When something is in database isn't cannon..

 

In my opinion cannon is only what is in movies.

 

Everything else is just for fun.

 

Well like it or not, the EU is canon. Well, most of it, apart from the blatantly apocryphical and ridiculous stuff.

 

Er... it may be "canon" in the grand scheme of things, but ultimately official Lucas Star Wars stuff is only canon if Lucas says so, which limits it usually to the movies and some other small exceptions (like I heard the clone wars cartoon shorts are also considered canon to Lucas).

 

If you're curious, there's a nice article about the whole canon thing here:

http://www.st-v-sw.net/ColdWar/ColdWar-canon.html

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I say that as long is it doesn't inflict with something in the Database, then it could be considered to have taken place within Star Wars.

 

Just my thoughts on the matter.


Geekified Star Wars Geek

 

Heart of the Force, Arm of the Force

 

"Only a Sith deals in absolutes!"

-Obi-wan to Anakin (NOT advocating Grey-Jedidom)

 

"The Force doesn't control people, Kreia controls people."

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I like to think that stuff is official only if it is in the movies.

 

Then from the EU you can choose and pick whatever you like.


And by the light of the moon

He prays for their beauty not doom

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Official is a relative term when talking about Star Wars. Technically, MOST of it is true, but it was Luke that blew up the Death Star, not somebody else... :o


Geekified Star Wars Geek

 

Heart of the Force, Arm of the Force

 

"Only a Sith deals in absolutes!"

-Obi-wan to Anakin (NOT advocating Grey-Jedidom)

 

"The Force doesn't control people, Kreia controls people."

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No, they shouldn't put K2 over in the databank, imo.  K2 was too unfinished and there were too many plot-holes and the fate of the characters was too vague and glossed over for the sake of completion.

 

And if you thought canonizing Revan was tough, try canonizing the Exile.  A character with not only no official gender, no official alignment, and no official look, but also no official name.

 

How would they even begin to explain all of that and also try to somehow streamline all the possible outcomes of his or her fate. :blink:

 

Plus, let's face it.  K2 was not in the Star Wars tradition.  I liked the game but, it just didn't feel like Star Wars. 

I don't think that powers that be over at Lucasfilm (even though I understand that they approved everything we saw in K2) would want to include Mira, Atton, Handmaiden, Disciple, Bao-Dur, etc. in their database because of the way OE wrote those characters.

 

They were all Force Sensitives with the ability to become double-bladed lightsaber weilding badasses through the course of one conversation.  That's just not Star Wars.  Becoming a Jedi is supposed to be the most difficult thing that someone can aspire to be.  And then only a select few are chosen at childbirth to be raised in the Jedi ways from infancy.

 

And all of you out there saying, "Well, what about Luke Skywalker?  He only trained for a few weeks before going to confront Vader???"  People, Luke Skywalker was, for all intents and purposes, the son of the Sith'ari.  It has been stressed time and time again how UNUSUAL AND ABNORMAL it was for Luke to be trained as an adult.  And the only reason he was successful was because of the stupifyingly powerful connection to the Force that he had, which he inherited from his father, THE DARK LORD OF THE SITH.  There is no comparison whatsoever on that front.

 

So, unless you're telling me that Atton, Mira, etc. are all descended from some ancient Dark Lord or some powerful old Jedi Master or something,  then I don't really jive with the fact that they can all be converted.

 

The only way this could have worked, IMO, was if the story was ABOUT these Force Sensitives.  For example, if Kreia's goal all along had nothing to do with destroying the Force, but had everything to do with hunting down and finding these Adepts because they were all the progeny of some ancient Dark Lord.  Kinda like what I said above.

 

In this way it would be similar to the BG games where, just as in that series the focus is the progeny of the God of Murder, in K2 it would have been about the progeny of some uber-badass from a long time ago.  Which meant that the next chosen Dark Lord was most likely one of your apprentices.  And they are all drawn to you because of your wound and your ability to draw people to you.

 

This would pretty much re-write the entire story as it would really have nothing to do with the first game and whether the Jedi were there or in hiding wouldn't be the main focus of the story.  As it stands right now, Traya does tell you that your companions are the true lost Jedi, but that wasn't the main focus of the story.

  If it was then I would say K2 would've had a good chance to be canonized.

 

But in it's current form?  No.

 

Good point.

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The only way that they can do it is if the descriptions ended at the point where a change on your part takes place. Like Atton, it stops at when he becomes a Jedi. Some characters like Kreia can be given a definite description unless a Content patch comes along and makes it so it can be either

Atris or herself at the end

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The canon issue... it rears its head in every good license, from Middle-Earth to Star Trek. My argument always has been that at least in the Star Wars and Star Trek licenses, there really can't be a canon. Here's an example. Using whatever game system you like, try to come up with a detailed PnP campaign set in the Star Trek universe using the various TV series and movies as "canon" on which to build the universe. Start with two things 1. The map of the galaxy, and 2. Warpdrive technology.

Let me know how you do.

 

All the Star Trek series were made by giving out a reference guide to writers detailing the technologies and the themes. There was little to no fact checking in between episodes aside from MAJOR plotlines. The producers and writers were creating good (and sometimes stellar and sometimes lousy) television entertainment using a particular shared setting. Their goal was not to create a unified universe, they've said so themselves on many occasions. Trying to find a body of "canon" in this case amounts to mental masterbation in my opinion.

 

Contrast this with Middle-Earth, a single writer, a single focus, with the FULL INTENT on creating a unified universe from start to finish (google mythopoesis tolkien to see what I mean).

 

Now we come to Star Wars. It's a mix between the two previous examples. The expanded universe has a lot of different writers, yet there is still one "vision" in control. or is there?

 

A look at Lucas' "Vision"

 

Take one look at the first trilogy of movies and then see what is being done with the prequel trilogy and you'll come to the painful fact that if Lucas himself isn't even being consistent between his own movies, then there really can't be a canon.

 

That having been said, the Star Trek and Star Wars universes do such an incredible job at times of storytelling and engaging our imaginations that it's inevitable that fans will, in effect, create their own list of canon. That's fine, it just saddens me to see the furious debates and schisms that arise in the community all in the name of "official canon" when in fact the fans themselves care more about the consistency of the universe then the writers EVER did.

 

Sorry if it took me forever to get to the question, but my first reaction is, people shouldn't really care what's in the database cause I doubt Lucas does. The second reaction is that no, KotOR II should not be included in any canonical listings. Until the storyline is actually finished, the characters can't be considered canonical in any way.

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Darth Radnor made a huge quote to say this:

 

Good point.

 

i.e. to say nothing but waste space and time...

 

Anyway I do not see why the KotOR II stuff should not be integrated to the Star Wars database if the contents of the first one were. They began the work, why shouldn't they stop it now ? It should be not so difficult justify the so high proportions of Force sensitives peoples in the KotOR II's team. After all, the Jedi Masters on Dantooine said the Exile has a great ability to create Force bonds, they can say the Exile has an ability to attire force sensitive people or some explanations like these.

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That having been said, the Star Trek and Star Wars universes do such an incredible job at times of storytelling and engaging our imaginations that it's inevitable that fans will, in effect, create their own list of canon.  That's fine, it just saddens me to see the furious debates and schisms that arise in the community all in the name of "official canon" when in fact the fans themselves care more about the consistency of the universe then the writers EVER did.

 

Writers have better things to do "fans" dont. :D


I have to agree with Volourn.  Bioware is pretty much dead now.  Deals like this kills development studios.

478327[/snapback]

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No, they shouldn't put K2 over in the databank, imo.  K2 was too unfinished and there were too many plot-holes and the fate of the characters was too vague and glossed over for the sake of completion.

 

And if you thought canonizing Revan was tough, try canonizing the Exile.  A character with not only no official gender, no official alignment, and no official look, but also no official name.

 

How would they even begin to explain all of that and also try to somehow streamline all the possible outcomes of his or her fate. :blink:

 

Plus, let's face it.  K2 was not in the Star Wars tradition.  I liked the game but, it just didn't feel like Star Wars. 

I don't think that powers that be over at Lucasfilm (even though I understand that they approved everything we saw in K2) would want to include Mira, Atton, Handmaiden, Disciple, Bao-Dur, etc. in their database because of the way OE wrote those characters.

 

They were all Force Sensitives with the ability to become double-bladed lightsaber weilding badasses through the course of one conversation.  That's just not Star Wars.  Becoming a Jedi is supposed to be the most difficult thing that someone can aspire to be.  And then only a select few are chosen at childbirth to be raised in the Jedi ways from infancy.

 

And all of you out there saying, "Well, what about Luke Skywalker?  He only trained for a few weeks before going to confront Vader???"  People, Luke Skywalker was, for all intents and purposes, the son of the Sith'ari.  It has been stressed time and time again how UNUSUAL AND ABNORMAL it was for Luke to be trained as an adult.  And the only reason he was successful was because of the stupifyingly powerful connection to the Force that he had, which he inherited from his father, THE DARK LORD OF THE SITH.  There is no comparison whatsoever on that front.

 

So, unless you're telling me that Atton, Mira, etc. are all descended from some ancient Dark Lord or some powerful old Jedi Master or something,  then I don't really jive with the fact that they can all be converted.

 

The only way this could have worked, IMO, was if the story was ABOUT these Force Sensitives.  For example, if Kreia's goal all along had nothing to do with destroying the Force, but had everything to do with hunting down and finding these Adepts because they were all the progeny of some ancient Dark Lord.  Kinda like what I said above.

 

In this way it would be similar to the BG games where, just as in that series the focus is the progeny of the God of Murder, in K2 it would have been about the progeny of some uber-badass from a long time ago.  Which meant that the next chosen Dark Lord was most likely one of your apprentices.  And they are all drawn to you because of your wound and your ability to draw people to you.

 

This would pretty much re-write the entire story as it would really have nothing to do with the first game and whether the Jedi were there or in hiding wouldn't be the main focus of the story.  As it stands right now, Traya does tell you that your companions are the true lost Jedi, but that wasn't the main focus of the story.

  If it was then I would say K2 would've had a good chance to be canonized.

 

But in it's current form?  No.

 

 

and Kyle, and Mara you wanna get technical we can agree that the force works in mysterious ways does it not????

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They've added Kotor I already, and last I checked, they were coming up with 'definitions' of characters that don't inflict with any game play-through. Just some backgrounds, I think... I could (and hopefully are) be wrong...


Geekified Star Wars Geek

 

Heart of the Force, Arm of the Force

 

"Only a Sith deals in absolutes!"

-Obi-wan to Anakin (NOT advocating Grey-Jedidom)

 

"The Force doesn't control people, Kreia controls people."

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No, they shouldn't put K2 over in the databank, imo.  K2 was too unfinished and there were too many plot-holes and the fate of the characters was too vague and glossed over for the sake of completion.

 

And if you thought canonizing Revan was tough, try canonizing the Exile.  A character with not only no official gender, no official alignment, and no official look, but also no official name.

 

How would they even begin to explain all of that and also try to somehow streamline all the possible outcomes of his or her fate. :blink:

 

Plus, let's face it.  K2 was not in the Star Wars tradition.  I liked the game but, it just didn't feel like Star Wars. 

I don't think that powers that be over at Lucasfilm (even though I understand that they approved everything we saw in K2) would want to include Mira, Atton, Handmaiden, Disciple, Bao-Dur, etc. in their database because of the way OE wrote those characters.

 

They were all Force Sensitives with the ability to become double-bladed lightsaber weilding badasses through the course of one conversation.  That's just not Star Wars.  Becoming a Jedi is supposed to be the most difficult thing that someone can aspire to be.  And then only a select few are chosen at childbirth to be raised in the Jedi ways from infancy.

 

And all of you out there saying, "Well, what about Luke Skywalker?  He only trained for a few weeks before going to confront Vader???"  People, Luke Skywalker was, for all intents and purposes, the son of the Sith'ari.  It has been stressed time and time again how UNUSUAL AND ABNORMAL it was for Luke to be trained as an adult.  And the only reason he was successful was because of the stupifyingly powerful connection to the Force that he had, which he inherited from his father, THE DARK LORD OF THE SITH.  There is no comparison whatsoever on that front.

 

So, unless you're telling me that Atton, Mira, etc. are all descended from some ancient Dark Lord or some powerful old Jedi Master or something,  then I don't really jive with the fact that they can all be converted.

 

The only way this could have worked, IMO, was if the story was ABOUT these Force Sensitives.  For example, if Kreia's goal all along had nothing to do with destroying the Force, but had everything to do with hunting down and finding these Adepts because they were all the progeny of some ancient Dark Lord.  Kinda like what I said above.

 

In this way it would be similar to the BG games where, just as in that series the focus is the progeny of the God of Murder, in K2 it would have been about the progeny of some uber-badass from a long time ago.  Which meant that the next chosen Dark Lord was most likely one of your apprentices.  And they are all drawn to you because of your wound and your ability to draw people to you.

 

This would pretty much re-write the entire story as it would really have nothing to do with the first game and whether the Jedi were there or in hiding wouldn't be the main focus of the story.  As it stands right now, Traya does tell you that your companions are the true lost Jedi, but that wasn't the main focus of the story.

  If it was then I would say K2 would've had a good chance to be canonized.

 

But in it's current form?  No.

 

 

and Kyle, and Mara you wanna get technical we can agree that the force works in mysterious ways does it not????

 

Well, I don't know too much about Kyle (outside of Outcast and JA) and Mara Jade. Only that I think they are characters in the NJO universe, no? That's after ROTJ correct?

 

I would say that after the redemption of Anakin with the whole balance of the Force thing going on, that things happened differently and were all out of whack. Therefore, you had a number of Force Sensitives popping up all over the galaxy because the Forcce was balancing itself out again. This would explain Jaden Korr's story in JA.

 

But more to the point, I would say Kyle and Mara's story were done before the prequels came out (at least I think they were). That's important because Lucas set some strict and clear guidelines regarding Jedi training and sentients being selected for Jedi training with Episode I. Lucas was pretty adamant about Force Sensitives being selected at birth and how Anakin was already way too old for Jedi training at the age of 8 or 9.

 

Most of the writers that developed the EU were working off of original ideas for the most part. It wasn't until 1999 with the release of TPM, did Lucas begin to explain the history and the traditions of the Jedi and how they were invincible and how there could only be two Sith at a time.

 

Before that, you had writers conceiving of worlds with thousands of Sith Lords, and 4 or 5 Padawans to every 1 Master and things like that. This is also why I think the Dark Lords prior to TPM all had original names like Exar Kun and Ulic-Qel Droma, etc. When TPM came out, we found out about names such as Darth Sidious, Maul, Bane, etc., and that the name Darth is more of a title, like Caesar, that denotes royalty of some sort. And the current lineage of Dark Lords goes back to Bane.

 

So, with all that being said, I would still say that

your companions ability to become highly trained Jedi so fast is really not realistic nor in the Star Wars tradion

.

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Who says they become Jedi? Even with a lot of worlds left to go, they're still puny compared to you and the other Jedi. You just open the door, and they put their foot in before it's slammed on them, leaving them to teach themselves/find Jedi teachings elsewhere...


Geekified Star Wars Geek

 

Heart of the Force, Arm of the Force

 

"Only a Sith deals in absolutes!"

-Obi-wan to Anakin (NOT advocating Grey-Jedidom)

 

"The Force doesn't control people, Kreia controls people."

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So, with all that being said, I would still say that

your companions ability to become highly trained Jedi so fast is really not realistic nor in the Star Wars tradion

.

 

A week on the job is worth a year of theory.


I have to agree with Volourn.  Bioware is pretty much dead now.  Deals like this kills development studios.

478327[/snapback]

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KOTOR II Characters will be in Star Wars Databank sometime soon. Lucasfilms Ltd has the license for this game so in fact will be in Databank. I do not think they will be in databank until completion of KOTOR III script that way the fates of Exile and companions are finalized.

 

Those who pay Lucas his 30% using Star Wars names that is when it becomes official. So for all we know Luke married Leia as long as you pay Lucas his 30% it is official.

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I'd like KOTOR to in the databank just so i can get a straight answer about what the hell Kreia's goal was, what happened to Bao-Dur etc. etc.

 

But there are many things in both KOTOR games that, whilst a lot of fun to play through, just don't make sense in the Star Wars Universe.

 

As mentioned many times before, it's hard to believe a character, no matter how good at making force-bonds, could train four adults to wield a lightsaber competently and use small amounts of force powers within a few weeks.

 

For me personally, some characters, events and objects resemble original trilogy characters far too strongly for me to believe in them as I do the original films (e.g. Atton is a slightly nastier Han, Malak is basically vader in red with no children and the 'revelation' scene in KOTOR and Kreia's death in a dark side TSL game are way too obvious).

 

And, espescially in the case of TSL, I don't want a story to be canon where the main character doesn't have a name, nobody knows whether Revan turned to the light or dark side (the focal point of the entire story) and so many important details lie in the realm of Jedi philosophy and opinion.

 

The KOTOR games are just astounding as RPG's (even with the ending issue) but they wouldn't make any sense in the databank and have no bearing on any story other than their own. I think with some details changed, some planets removed, and fuller characters built up for Revan and the Exile, the series would make a fantastic series of novels. But as they are - no way!

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