Gorth Posted March 7, 2005 Share Posted March 7, 2005 Something got me wondering...what was it the Republic was supposed to know? Canderous asked that question to one of the Mandalorians as they were walking on the ship. I got the impression first, that it was whether the republic knew of the mandalorian presence. But now that you mention it, it might be something else... Good question. “He who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would surely suffice.” - Albert Einstein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadowPaladin V1.0 Posted March 7, 2005 Share Posted March 7, 2005 I got the impression first, that it was whether the republic knew of the mandalorian presence. But now that you mention it, it might be something else... Good question. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> They were not to know about the intent to destroy the ship. Which is why the Mandalorians used missile cores as the explosive charges (since they register as part of the ship when scanned). I have to agree with Volourn. Bioware is pretty much dead now. Deals like this kills development studios. 478327[/snapback] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AngryTarsier Posted March 7, 2005 Share Posted March 7, 2005 ohh about that.. I got the idea that the center of the academy the one where you fight kreia is the remains of the original academy that survive the destruction of M5, the other parts on the other hand look newer or recently built Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tmp Posted March 7, 2005 Share Posted March 7, 2005 by the way... the academy in M5 is after the mandalorian wars.. unless you show me some material in SW EU that can resist planetary destruction at point blank range... something that can stand being an inch from the nuzzle of a death star when it fires.. It's mentioned in the game that the academy at M5 is ancient and somehow managed to 'survive' the destruction of the planet, likely due to dark force it's imbued with... can't remember if it's in the dialogues, or in those brief pieces of text you get while loading save games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanC9 Posted March 7, 2005 Share Posted March 7, 2005 And where did Revan face Mandalore's forces at? This might be a contradiction, because I think it was implied that Revan was at Malachor in KOTOR. Because Canderous says it was Revan who defeated them at Malachor, not the Jedi or the Republic fleet. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Canderous would have no way of knowing whether Revan was personally commanding the Republic fleet or not. It's not clear if Mandalore was at Malachor V or not. It's clear that he didn't die there. since he was executed by Revan, possibly after being defeated in personal combat, which would imply that Revan spared him to execute him later. How cruel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naso Posted March 7, 2005 Share Posted March 7, 2005 Maybe the mass shadow generator or whatever was housed in it, so the academy, which seems at least partly subterainian, was the point around which everything else crumpled. Yes, I know, it should theoretically crumple around a point, but maybe the thingy had some sort of way to create a safe zone to operate the thing. I don't know... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
213374U Posted March 7, 2005 Share Posted March 7, 2005 This deffintely is a plothole. yes it was at malachor, Revan controlled this ship. Revan is highly thought of in Mandalorian soceity. Mandalorians dont seek revenge, it is dishonerable amoung mandalorains. However something may have happened to Canderous like after Revan took back the star forge maybe he tried to kill Canderous. This makes the most sense to me. Dude, Revan fought at M5, the ravage was at M5. You are just making stuff up for the sake of it. It was clearly stated that Revan wasn't at Malachor V. He had been delayed by some mandalorian scouts or something in the edge of the system. I'm not sure if it's Kreia who tells you this, or you can gather as much from the MV loading screens. That explains why it was the exile who gave the command to activate the MSG, a decision which wouldn't have been his to make if he hadn't been the supreme commander at that battle. - When he is best, he is a little worse than a man, and when he is worst, he is little better than a beast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoadReaction Posted March 7, 2005 Share Posted March 7, 2005 He fought on the "surface" and anyways look at the scene with mandalore and the random mandalorian, they talk about revenge, and mandlore helpos you kill everyone on the ravager for revenge. This kills everything all in one shot. Canderous was never like this before. Mandalorians dont act this way and thats all there is too it ( well accept for thugs, and Mercs). the mandalorian code was emphasized by canderous throughout KOTOR 1 and 2. Kind of funny how he randomly "forgets" about it , I mean you are only supposed to live your life by it no biggie. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Actually in both games Canderous makes no notes of Revenge being a forbidden thing to Mandalorians. I know, because I'm going through KOTOR again, and am about done with Canderous stories. Nothing of revenge comes up. So if there's is nothing said, then it must not be wrong. Revenge is quite common among Mandalorians, as it is with most species in the Star Wars galaxy. The Mandalorians hold nothing against REVAN, and that is the only person they care about. He is the only one honor and respect. Everyone else will get a little payback from the Mandalorians, and the Ravager was just one of those cases. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Canderous talks about his people throuout most of the game and you may even ask him in 1 and 2 neither times does he want revenge. The ravager is full of sith....an old enemy. It is poorly thought out and revenge isnt forbidden it is just dishonerbale as i had said a million times before. also how ami making stuff up in kotor 2 there is a scene when kreia is bitching about revan on malachor unless i have somethi9ng mistaken nonethel;ess its unimportant. the point is they screwed up with incoporating mandalores behavoir with the mandalorian code. Also whats with your "I'm Holier than thou" attitude? If i was making stuff up it'd be more original for cripes sakes. (im ure they coouldve though of something better) There is nothing there for you Jedi, only weakness surrounds the Jedi Order, just Give in Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AngryTarsier Posted March 7, 2005 Share Posted March 7, 2005 unless you include that scene after the mandalorian battle circle where a mandalorian challenges you on a one-on-one combat to the death to regain his honor, kinda looks like revenge to me... and how could the sith be an old enemy?? the sith didn't destroy the mandalorians, the republic did.. Revan did... notice the many "..." so nobody is reising thier voice... passion leads to anger, anger leads to hate and hate to suffering, and suffering leads to the dark side of the force... so before you rply breath slowly ten times... the typos on the last one clearly shows you were angry.. or passionate about the reply.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witchzenka Posted March 7, 2005 Share Posted March 7, 2005 They did not screw up with Mandalore, I've seen nothing inconsistant with his character. As for Revan - Revan went to Malachor 5 because that's where Kreia was - Revan did not do battle at Malachor 5. That's made clear through dialogue in the game. -Zenka The Evil Cow http://kotorsocial.suddenlaunch3.com/index.cgi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Handel Posted March 7, 2005 Author Share Posted March 7, 2005 Mandalorians aren't revengers. They destroyed the ship as part of destroying Nihilus.This is not a plot hole. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> No, they don't! In the very beginning of the Ravager battle they tell they checked the ship ID and this is indeed the same ship from Malackor V. About the Nihilius - don't talk noncense. The Exile killed him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witchzenka Posted March 7, 2005 Share Posted March 7, 2005 I can't roll my eyes hard enough at you. Just because they mention a ship is from Malachor 5 doesn't mean they're looking for revenge, for goodness sake. It just means a creepy suspicion was confirmed. And, duh, the Exile killed Nihilus (with Visas and Mandalore). I never said differently. But a good strategist like you'd expect Mandalore to be wouldn't leave something like that to chance. Sure you can go in swinging - what's the back up plan? Oh, that's right. blow the Ravager to hell. And after Nihilus dies, there's no point in leaving the Ravager all in one piece - it's half- destroyed and all but useless to anyone but Nihilus. Who, as you so kindly pointed out, is dead. -Zenka The Evil Cow http://kotorsocial.suddenlaunch3.com/index.cgi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AngryTarsier Posted March 7, 2005 Share Posted March 7, 2005 though it puzzles me why the hell did they want to hide their presence, use charges similar to torpedoes and use of stealth generators and so on, why not just say it out loud.. we want to help, they gain amnesty from the republic, they rebuild their culture, become members of the republic and if they want to battle so bad.. why not become some sort of special force for the republic... why go all the trouble of hiding?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PjotrGushin Posted March 7, 2005 Share Posted March 7, 2005 "Why the hell they risked their life just to destroy the ship?.. " The reason is very simple. When they were the followers of Exar Kun they were just slaves to be used. They fear that if the Republic fall to the Sith, they would be enslaved yet again. So, in dealing a blow to the Sith by killing Nihilis they work for them selves, and not really for the Republic or the Exile. The Raveger attack just happened to coincide... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Handel Posted March 7, 2005 Author Share Posted March 7, 2005 The reason is very simple. When they were the followers of Exar Kun they were just slaves to be used. They fear that if the Republic fall to the Sith, they would be enslaved yet again. So, in dealing a blow to the Sith by killing Nihilis they work for them selves, and not really for the Republic or the Exile. The Raveger attack just happened to coincide... <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Actually they prefer to help THE SITH against the Republic (hint - Onderon). About Ravager - no, they didn't not went there to kill Nihilius, they went here specially to destroy Ravager, because it was at M5 (as seen in the cutscene from the very begining of the battle). And they didn't not try to kill Nihilius - Nihilius was invincible before Visa cutting his bonds with the force. Either - you cannot blow the ship before the Exile kills Nihilius. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witchzenka Posted March 7, 2005 Share Posted March 7, 2005 Actually they prefer to help THE SITH against the Republic (hint - Onderon).About Ravager - no, they didn't not went there to kill Nihilius, they went here specially to destroy Ravager, because it was at M5 (as seen in the cutscene from the very begining of the battle). And they didn't not try to kill Nihilius - Nihilius was invincible before Visa cutting his bonds with the force. Either - you cannot blow the ship before the Exile kills Nihilius. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Actually, Canderous flat out tells the Exile they don't want the Sith to win, that the Sith don't share power. The enemy of my enemy is my friend. Mandalore doesn't support Vaklu because the Sith support him - it's not even known at that point that the Sith do support Vaklu. He supports Vaklu because he believes Vaklu to be a stronger and more war-like leader, and he respects that. -Zenka The Evil Cow http://kotorsocial.suddenlaunch3.com/index.cgi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PjotrGushin Posted March 7, 2005 Share Posted March 7, 2005 though it puzzles me why the hell did they want to hide their presence, use charges similar to torpedoes and use of stealth generators and so on, why not just say it out loud.. we want to help, they gain amnesty from the republic, they rebuild their culture, become members of the republic and if they want to battle so bad.. why not become some sort of special force for the republic... why go all the trouble of hiding?? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> My view of this is that they _don't_ want to become a part of the republic unless they are the ones who calls the shots via an invasion. They are very proud to be Mandalorians and their aim is to take back what they lost in the war against Revan. But, as HK 47 says if you get him on your side, their cause is already lost since too much was lost to Revan... Still, being Mandalorians, or at least an ambitious Mandalorian, the goal is none the less to make the Mandalorians a force in the universe again (no pun intended) ;-). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PjotrGushin Posted March 7, 2005 Share Posted March 7, 2005 Actually, Canderous flat out tells the Exile they don't want the Sith to win, that the Sith don't share power. The enemy of my enemy is my friend. Mandalore doesn't support Vaklu because the Sith support him - it's not even known at that point that the Sith do support Vaklu. He supports Vaklu because he believes Vaklu to be a stronger and more war-like leader, and he respects that. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> And to fill out the above a little bit, when the Exile and Onderon help Vaklu it is also to help Vaklu against the Sith. This since Vaklu and Tobin also are afraid of the Sith and they think that they would get a better chance with the Exile than the Sith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiwegapa Posted March 7, 2005 Share Posted March 7, 2005 Has anyone considered the simple explanation? The Exile helped Mandalore rebuild his clans somewhat. Thus, attacking the Ravager is a repayment of a debt of honor. And no matter whether they dislike the Sith or not, boarding and taking out the Ravager was a challenge, a warrior's test. Canderous spoke of how the Mandalorians lived for battle such as that. Occam's Razor. The simplest and most likely explanation is usually correct. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zilod Posted March 7, 2005 Share Posted March 7, 2005 "Why the hell they risked their life just to destroy the ship?.. " I think we must consider some things Mandalore at that time is your follower, you fought togather, you demonstrated your honor, not to say that the Exile is a natural leader. Mandalorians where almost dead, most of them lost their honor to become scums and mercenaries, the Ordo clan is tring to rebuild what they have lost and this battle can be the chance to prove to the galaxy, and even better to themselves, that "true" mandalorians and their code is not dead. also mandalorians seeks honor in battle, expecially against strong enemies, so this battle is a good place to gain such honor and respect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Handel Posted March 7, 2005 Author Share Posted March 7, 2005 "Why the hell they risked their life just to destroy the ship?.. " also mandalorians seeks honor in battle, expecially against strong enemies, so this battle is a good place to gain such honor and respect. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Actually a ship is not "a strong enemy". Everyone can blowup a ship, if there are no defenders left. They didn't want to fight the Sith (Exile kills the Sith Lord) - they wanted to blowup the ship from the battle at M5 and specially checked his ID numbers to be sure it is the same ship. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Handel Posted March 7, 2005 Author Share Posted March 7, 2005 I think many ppl on this topc didn't even bother to read what the Mandalore says in the cutscene. They do not want to help the Exile, they do not to fight the Sith or help the Telos and such... They want just one simple thing - to destroy the ship (not the Sith Lord) which participated in M5 battle. Why? Even they want a revenge - no one revenges on the ship, because not a ship, but his crew and his captain were among the many other wich won the battle. If a killer shots a victim, no one sentences to death the gun, but the killer itself... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zilod Posted March 7, 2005 Share Posted March 7, 2005 This was just one of the motivations to do that, the other 2 where stronger imo, but anyway consider that the battle is not all the republic ship against the Ravager Nihilus had even some rakatan ships as support, and the Ravager itself seem to be an awesome ship, even Carth say that when they attack, maybe if mandalorians had not destroyed it the sith had won the battle... In such a big battle seem very dangerous, and so very honorable, to strike the heart of the enemy, in this case it's capital ship. and the Ravager is not deserted, is full of siths.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
213374U Posted March 7, 2005 Share Posted March 7, 2005 They want just one simple thing - to destroy the ship (not the Sith Lord) which participated in M5 battle. Why? Even they want a revenge - no one revenges on the ship, because not a ship, but his crew and his captain were among the many other wich won the battle. That is quite an imagination you've got. For starters you don't know what the true motivations of Mandalore are. As some people have stated before, Mandalore isn't very fond of the idea of the Sith winning any battle. They had enough with one Sith already. Even if Nihilus was killed, it didn't mean that his forces wouldn't win the battle. You don't know if Nihilus was a surviving Jedi of the battle of MV. Nobody really knows what Nihilus is. He was spawned from the Mandalorian Wars, that's all we know. And obviously, the current crew of the Ravager is not the original crew. The original crew was killed in the battle and that's why the ship was adrift in the debris field until Nihilus salvaged the vessel. There goes your "revenge" argument. - When he is best, he is a little worse than a man, and when he is worst, he is little better than a beast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witchzenka Posted March 7, 2005 Share Posted March 7, 2005 I think many ppl on this topc didn't even bother to read what the Mandalore says in the cutscene. They do not want to help the Exile, they do not to fight the Sith or help the Telos and such... They want just one simple thing - to destroy the ship (not the Sith Lord) which participated in M5 battle. Why? Even they want a revenge - no one revenges on the ship, because not a ship, but his crew and his captain were among the many other wich won the battle. If a killer shots a victim, no one sentences to death the gun, but the killer itself... <{POST_SNAPBACK}> You don't think we read the cutscene (um, wrong, but enjoy your delusions) and I think you read into it things that weren't even there. Nothing in the cutscene supports your idea of revenge, esp with the backstory, except what your imagination adds. imagination is a wonderful thing, but it does not make your interpretation based on your imaginings fact. All they do is mention the ship was at Malachor 5 - that's it. No "Now we shall have our revenge against...um... this ship... yeah, that'll show...it." Just, yes, this ship was pulled from the graveyard of our worst battle ever. I found it an interesting touch of remembrance - not an indication of revenge. If you can point to some actual line or even something from the load screen that says flatly the Mandalorians were seeking revenge, I'll listen. But nothing like that exists. -Zenka The Evil Cow http://kotorsocial.suddenlaunch3.com/index.cgi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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