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Master Dahvernas

TSL Story From a Writers Perspective

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Interesting how you go out of your way to state your own credentials in an effort to show how stating one's credentials is not the proper way to win friends and gain influence. This is thinly-veiled hypocracy at its finest.

 

I did! And as I've explained three times, I did so because I didn't believe that my opinion would mean anything to you otherwise. Also because I wanted to show you that bragging about your credentials and implying that they gave your opinion some kind of special ability was... well... rude. You accuse me of hypocrisy for doing the same thing, when I was doing the same thing merely to illustrate the lesson, and pretty clearly told you so. Looks like the message was received! :)

 

But I think, as much as some posters don't want to hear this, there are those of us who are skilled in storytelling more than others and that some of the flaws I and others have pointed out amount to just sloppy storytelling any way you slice it.

 

Ah, but there you go again. "Those of us who are skilled in storytelling more than others..." Maybe the message wasn't received after all! ;)

 

Does this make me "superior" to somebody who isn't as knoweledgeable (or analytical) who is just looking to enjoy the game?

 

Of course not... But it does gives me and others a more informed perspective than someone who doesn't care about writing or storytelling (in general) just as someone who has is a CPA a more informed knowledge of tax codes and accounting practices.

 

Which brings us full circle. Your arrogance... and yes, I do say arrogance since you've turned around and continued to insist you have some kind of special talent to dissect and criticize that mere gaming peons cannot hope to share... is the reason I laid out my credentials before I posted in the first place. My credentials are at least equal to your own, kind sir... and I disagree with you.

 

In a novel, you can draw your reader in by telling not what they want to know, but what they must know in order to want to know more... to turn that next page. The story will evolve exactly as the writer wishes it to. The reader is merely along for the ride.

 

In a game, where the story will twist and turn or totally stop depending upon whether the player chooses this line of dialogue or that one, whether the player chooses to be dark or light, whether the player chooses to hit Nar Shaddaar after Telos or go straight to Korriban, there is no way on earth the writers can promise every player the exact same story experience. NOR DO THEY WISH TO. Because the story will evolve as the player directs it, not as the "writer" directs it. And because if the player wishes the story to go in a different direction, the player can controll that by playing through the game again and making different choices.

 

Comparing a video game with a fiction novel is like comparing an onion with a Lexus. One requires careful peeling to reach the pungent core; the other gives you a choice of color or accessories, then takes you for a wonderful ride. But criticizing a Lexus because it doesn't smell like an onion and you cannot peel it makes about as much sense as the comments I have seen from you thus far.

 

You are, of course, entitled to your opinion. Neither of us will endear ourselves by tut-tutting our own linguistic superiorty, even as we are saddled with those pesky writer credentials, and know nothing at all about making a video game! :thumbsup:

 

With that, I give you something to either think about for your future interactions, or ignore totally. The structure you give to your own story is, of course, totally up to you!

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i don't want to enter in the "title" discussion but consider also that not only writers can have understanding of good stories...

I don't see why a "good" reader can be as much good with that and also many times critics are not writers themselves.

 

Even the style and the construction itself in the end is not absolute, it could change from society to society and it also evolves with time.

 

 

but i wanted to point to another thing...

is it so true that SW is so black/white?

 

is true that there is a strong definition of good/bad, but also sometimes we meet some character that are a bit more vague...

 

i'm thinking to Lando in ESB, Qui-Gon or even Anakin in ep2

 

the force itself is not so defined in the end, when we speak about it we speak about light side and dark side, not about light force and dark force...

 

I think that the word is quite interesting, as it imply that the "real" force is both of them but it give also the idea that what we see of the force are just opposite surfaces, sides of something more vast and between them.

 

 

edit:

i'm not saying that the movies are vague and with soft tones, is quite clear that in te movies the opposition of light/dark, good/bad, is really strong.

I'm just saying that the idea of a grey area and not "clear" character is alredy present in the movies themselves.

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Interesting how you go out of your way to state your own credentials in an effort to show how stating one's credentials is not the proper way to win friends and gain influence. This is thinly-veiled hypocracy at its finest.

 

I don't have a problem with others opinions... Professional or not.

 

But I think, as much as some posters don't want to hear this, there are those of us who are skilled in storytelling more than others and that some of the flaws I and others have pointed out amount to just sloppy storytelling any way you slice it.

 

Does this make me "superior" to somebody who isn't as knoweledgeable (or analytical) who is just looking to enjoy the game?

 

Of course not... But it does gives me and others a more informed perspective than someone who doesn't care about writing or storytelling (in general) just as someone who has is a CPA a more informed knowledge of tax codes and accounting practices.

 

It is obvious I have struck a nerve with some people...

 

But what I am also seeing (on this thread and others) is that some people desperately wanted to like this game and are justifying a lot of sloppy writing because they need to like this game to justify their $50.

 

I apologize if that does make me conceited  :thumbsup: ... But I've never been one to shy away from telling it like I see it.. And I don't say this because we are  on the internet in a shallow attempt to seem "cool" or "rebellious".

 

I want to thank everyone's opinions because you all have raised good counter-points and that is all I ask: You can disagree with me as long as you back it up just like I did in my initial post.

 

Exactly how sloppy it is seems to be your own conclusion. I've already addressed why I disagree with you on how interesting and powerful it is... but it is in no way sloppy. I'm not saying this because I need to justify buying the game - I play games with no story at all, and am pleased with that purchas - but because its true.

 

Writing also has nothing to do with appreciating and understanding stories more. As I've noted, some of the worst writing I've read is professional, and I've read some that will never get published that is fantastic. Just because someone isn't a writer doesn't mean they can't - I'm sure there is someone here who has never even tried to get a book published that could possible blow us all away with their fictional writing.

 

There are people here who are competent, poissibly more intelligent than you, who do not write - but they could just as easily understand it far better than you, and some, in fact, have shown that they do.

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But what I am also seeing (on this thread and others) is that some people desperately wanted to like this game and are justifying a lot of sloppy writing because they need to like this game to justify their $50.

 

I think that this made me a bit angry... why?

 

Because you are imply that the story is bad because you have not liked it, and people is just fooling themselves because they where fooled...

 

I think to have the criticism to know what i like and i dislike whitout having others to tell me that.

 

with that stance you are just insulting people that don't think the same as you, imply that they have simply not the capacity or the honesty to know what they like or not.

 

maybe i have to make a declaration under the truth machine, but i liked the game, and is not that i'm suggesting to my friends to grab it because the dark side got me and i want to fool them as i was fooled, but because i think it is really an awesome game...

 

and no i'm not blinded, i saw some bugs, the graphic is not awesome, the music is of low quality (even if is good), the end was cut.... what makes it a good game for me is the story.

 

so just to say again and again and to make it clear i really liked the story of this game that in my opinion have some amazing ideas.

 

 

about your original points... i say it again more clear.

 

point 1 is mostly a choice, better background vs more freedom of interpretation, both have pro and cons, but the fact to like one more than another makes not one really superior to the other.

 

point 2 i think was quite proven that you where mostly wrong as for almost every char you mentioned had good reasons to follow you (as not just me, but even other posters stated)

 

point 3 is just a personal taste, i was emotionally satisfied you where not, i liked the game, you not... we are different, with different sensibilities, we have all the right to have different opinions and to like/dislike a thing so please don't try to force me to dislike the game as i don't force you to like it.

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Tanuvein, without copping out, please tell me what it is exactly that makes you qualify as a "semi-professonal" writer. Did you get published in "Humor in Uniform" or what?


People laugh when I say that I think a jellyfish is one of the most beautiful things in the world. What they don't understand is, I mean a jellyfish with long, blond hair.

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Tanuvein, without copping out, please tell me what it is exactly that makes you qualify as a "semi-professonal" writer. Did you get published in "Humor in Uniform" or what?

 

What? I never said I was semi professional. That was the thread starter. I said I had a few stories and books published, but that is all.

 

I'm an anthropologist (well, currently a student again to get my doctorate), not a writer. I just wrote a bit when I was younger because I enjoyed it, and later because it was easy money (yes, I'm a sell out).

 

I do, however, hope to write a book one some of the things I've studied sooner or later.

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Sorry I meant to ask Master Dahvernas that question


People laugh when I say that I think a jellyfish is one of the most beautiful things in the world. What they don't understand is, I mean a jellyfish with long, blond hair.

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Does this make me "superior" to somebody who isn't as knoweledgeable (or analytical) who is just looking to enjoy the game?

 

Of course not... But it does gives me and others a more informed perspective than someone who doesn't care about writing or storytelling (in general) just as someone who has is a CPA a more informed knowledge of tax codes and accounting practices.

No, I don't think so. While you might be able to recognize some patterns, or narrative techniques and perhaps find flaws in those, that doesn't give you a "more informed perspective" on the story itself, since the story is the same for everyone. Sloppy storytelling is not something subtle or something you need to be trained to detect. Quite the opposite in fact.

 

But again, writing is a creative work, and not a science. Which in the end, means that any of your judgements are nothing but your opinion. You may be more knowledgeable than I am, but that doesn't make your opinion any more valid than mine at all.

 

 

But what I am also seeing (on this thread and others) is that some people desperately wanted to like this game and are justifying a lot of sloppy writing because they need to like this game to justify their $50.

There you go again dismissing everyone else's opinions just because you are "a semi-professional writer".

I think that stating that people are justifying, what is in your opinion, sloppy writing is rather arrogant and hints that you might be a bit too full of yourself.

I tend to take elitist opinions such as yours with a pinch of salt.

 

I'm not going to argue your credentials, they mean nothing to me. Einstein himself was proven wrong. And proving him wrong was easier than it would be to prove wrong any of those who think the story is good, because unlike art, quantum mechanics can be mathematically demonstrated.


- When he is best, he is a little worse than a man, and when he is worst, he is little better than a beast.

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I'm not going to argue your credentials, they mean nothing to me. Einstein himself was proven wrong. And proving him wrong was easier than it would be to prove wrong any of those who think the story is good, because unlike art, quantum mechanics can be mathematically demonstrated.

 

I think I'd understand why someone didn't like the game before I understood that :)

 

Maybe.

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I think I'd understand why someone didn't like the game before I understood that :p

 

Maybe.

Well, it seems Einstein wasn't very fond of the idea that the reality couldn't be quantified with infinite precision, which is one of the basic principles of quantum mechanics. He said something along the lines of "God doesn't play dice". When quantum mechanics were accepted as a valid theory, he was effectively proven wrong. :)


- When he is best, he is a little worse than a man, and when he is worst, he is little better than a beast.

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I know there are a lot of threads about this topic, but this topic is going to be a little different because I am a semi-professional [fiction] writer and I am going to analyze three main factors where I think Obsidian really did drop the ball... Regardless of the content that was cut.

 

You can view this thread and the things as I say as arrogant, conceded, and whatever you like and that is fine.

 

But I would hope that you at least read what I have to say before you pronounce judgement on my opinion because I feel what I say here is accurate in a lot of respects and I don't do it to just "bash" OE. I do it because there are general flaws in this story's logic that shouldn't be there, but the player is forced to just "overlook" in order to play the game and that should never be the case in any form of narrative entertainment in my opinion.

 

With that said...

 

1) Your Character Does Not Have Amnesia

 

This is one of the major problems with TSL from the start because while the Exile doesn't have amnesia... You, as the player, are forced to play the game as if you did and that, right there, is why this game feels disjointed because I don't think Obsidian properly balanced discovering your past with living in your present.

 

The best example of this is the fact that the Exile, in no uncertain terms, has PTSD (Post Traumatic Stress Disorder) that is amplified 10 fold because of his/her Force Bonds to living beings and what he did on Malachor V... Yet it is as if he has completely forogtten everything when we meet him when in reality that is the one few things he would still be aware of and desparately tryhing to forget more than anything else.

 

The fact that the gamer has to suspend their disbelief that he/she has already forgotten such life altering events is such an illogical and weak assumption on the storytellers part and is not one that the foundation, the player's suspension of disbelief, the game should soley rely on in my book.

 

This flaw is compounded in that the Exile has no "visions" or nightmares (flashbacks) of what he did during the war like Revan did in the original KOTOR. This only makes this assumption even harder to swallow  as the main player character.

 

Also, where this is really evident is when you finally reach Malachor V late in the game.

 

You have no recollection of the Shadow Generator... Which is highly illogical as that probably is the source of your PTSD and guilt for all the lives that were lost becuase you gave the order to fire it... Yet this is the first time in the game it is brought up AND you still didn't remember this through out your whole journey?!

 

This is what I meant when I mentioned earlier that having such illogical assumptions and sloppy executions makes revelations like the SG look amateurish and "Deus Ex Machina" and it detracts from the immersiveness and overall quality of the story being told.

 

2) Most of The Party Members Have No Motivation to Join You and Vice Versa

 

I realize that this is an RPG and you have to make some sacrifices in order to have a game...

 

But I found that almost everyone aside from Kriea, Goto and Visis... Had no real incentive or motives to want to tag along with you. Let alone, the fact the Exile is trying to forget and realistically, a lot of war veterans who would be as severly troubled as the Exile do not go seeking out others because they need the isolation (the stories of Vietnam and Middle-East vets living in the middle of deserts like Wyoming and the forests of the Pacific Northwest aren't made up; they feel at home in these places as long as none one is around because they are ultra-paranoid).

 

Again, my suspension of disbelief as a gamer was stretched very thin in this respect because it just does not make a lot of sense to the point you can't just consciously overlook it to some degree.

 

Atton: Who is similar to the Exile in trying to forget his past... Would not just automatically ally himself with two Jedi considering he was a Sith Assassin.

 

You can argue it was because he had no choice and wanted to get off Peragus... But realistically, he probably would ditch you and Kriea the first chance he got... Let alone probably try and sell you to the Exchange because that is who he is. His "redemption" (if you play LS) comes out of nowhere and feels incredibly forced and cliched. Even his explanation as to who he was (Sith Assassin) gives no real motivation as to why he wants to all of a sudden become a "good guy" and become a Jedi if you have enough influence in him.

 

It is really ashame because I think OE could have avoided the cliched "troubled soul who only needs to see the light" storyline and actually had Atton be the betrayer, or just stay covertly "evil". I think that would have actually been a more fresh and unexpected approach in my opinion. It would be great if he was actually a Sith Lord and his whole "brooding boy who wants to make amends" act was just that: An act, so that he could get closer to the Exile and Kriea and either turn them on each other and or kill both of them...

 

And what would be even better and add more depth to gameplay is if Kriea *knew* Atton was a Sith Lord in hiding and she tried to counter his manipulations with her own. You'd basically have a struggle for the Exile's "soul" going on between these two characters and I think that could have been a much more interesting take the light and dark sides of the force as well as the gray area in between that this game seems to want to address, but just doesn't really get into for some reason.

 

I think if OE had gone with a more unorthodox storyline like this that it would have made the Influence system even more important since there would be more at stake when the revelation is made that Atton is in fact a Sith Lord because then the way you influenced your party members would determine who stands with or against Atton, Kriea and yourself.

 

As far as the other party members... Mira has almost no point (or even backstory) and is just there to give the Exile another soldier (LS); Harrar if you go DS... The Handmaiden (m) and Disciple (fm) are the same way. Their only real purpose is to give you more "followers" and to try and get the point across that you are a natural born leader.

 

As I said, only Kreia, Goto and Visas have any real motivations (and backstory) as to why they would consciously want to seek you out and tag along as each has their own agenda... And are even up front about those agendas in a lot of ways... And are just using the Exile to further those goals.

 

3) Darker Do Not Mean No Emotionally Satisfying Endings

 

It is an unfortunate staple in the entertainment industry that whenever a story is reported to be darker, it usually means the producers are going to use this as an excuse to cocentrate more on addressing issues and themes that are mostly overlooked by other stories... But it also means the emphasis is more on mood and atmosphere and little details (dialogue; setting; actions) and not the overall story as a whole. TSL continues this trend, unfortunately.

 

Yes. The game is more ambiguous than the first. The tone is much more gray in terms of the LS and DS of the force than KOTOR.

 

However, being ambiguous is not an excuse for not delivering a solid and emotionally satisfying ending.

 

This is the trap that TSL has fallen into because while the Exile acts more like a normal person in terms of his responses to some of the NPC dialogues... The actual ending of the game is where it all falls apart and the player is left with a sense of emptiness and disappointment as if the journey they just went on (storywise) was for nothing.

 

This is bad if a movie, or novel has this kind of ending, but inexplicably bad for an RPG where the emotional satisfaction at the end for the player having done everything is the overall goal of the game from the very start. 

 

TSL fails miserably in this regard and it is the worst possible failure it can have among the others I've already listed. This is the main reason why a lot of people don't "get" or flat out don't like the ending. There is no emotional closure, nor any emotional satisfaction for completing the game.

 

In addition, I realize that the original ending(s) were cut.

 

However, at the same time, after reading the cut material... I still think TSL suffers from not having any real focus (for the player) and that even if the cut content was put back in... The *main narrative of the game is still lacking in terms of having any real emotional core and forces the player to make illogical leaps to enjoy the game and give any real meaning why you are doing any of the things you have been doing up until the end.

 

*Only the subplots would have been nicely wrapped up. For example, the Goto-Remote stand off would have been resolved when HK-47 bursts in and kicks Goto ass... But this is reliant on the Droid Factory and M3_47(?) planet being put back into the game since this severs Gotos link over all of his HK droids.

 

So, there is my take on things.

 

Like I said, you can completely disregard what I have to say, call me a "whinner" or whatever you want.

 

But I think these are the main reasons you are seeing a lot of posts that are confused about the ending, other plot shortcomings and storytelling flaws that crop up through out the game regardless of what content was cut to meet the ship deadline.

 

I'm too lazy to read this whole thread, so I'll just look at some of the things you have said. As a for-fun writer, I can understand some of your complaints.

 

The Amnesia thingy: LA said that Obsidian could have no flashbacks, so allusion was the best thing that they could come up with. They leave it to the player to figure out their past via dialog options. They could have sorta done it different, but I think they did a respectable job.

 

As for the motivation: Force Bonds. That is how Obsidian rationalized it. It does make sense, and many others have hidden motivation. Atton: Redemption. Mira: Bounty Hunting. Handmaiden: Natural Warrior Curiousity. Bao-Dur: Following Orders. Kreia: Send her to the Loony Bin. Visas: Surprised at power, starts off wanting to join the winning side.

 

Did I miss anybody? I think I covered all of the meatbags in the party... except Hanharr: Honorable Defeat (he wants to keep PC strong).

 

These are breif discriptions of possible motivations... They are POSSIBILITIES, not the actual motivations per se.

 

I can see your # 3 complaint as valid... I have yet to find a really good way to have an emotional fulfilling ending to a dark story, though. Usually the motivation of an 'evil' character is revenge, and that can be pretty hard to find emotionally complete... Oh, well. If you hate my ideas, feel free to trash them. :ph34r:

 

Edit: Plus, I expect they wanted a cliffhanger to keep LA in business, as well as Obsidian (since only they obviously know where the story is going <_< ).


Geekified Star Wars Geek

 

Heart of the Force, Arm of the Force

 

"Only a Sith deals in absolutes!"

-Obi-wan to Anakin (NOT advocating Grey-Jedidom)

 

"The Force doesn't control people, Kreia controls people."

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Atton: Redemption.

 

Agree.

 

Mira: Bounty Hunting.

 

Disagree.

 

Mira have a problem with killing people and she starts to kill under the Exile orders.

 

Either is the force bound (I disagree since she did not knew the Exile that well before joining) or because The Exile is a natural leader and she follows him becaise of that.

 

Handmaiden: Natural Warrior Curiousity.

 

Disagree.

 

You only get Handmaiden if you are male so it means one thing, she is attracted to him.

 

She also wants to follow her mother path, the Exile is (or was) a Jedi capable of teaching her down that path.

 

She hides behind her training and there is nothing warrior about following the Exile for her, she loves him and needs him to train her into her mother path.

 

There is a lot of depth into her but you have to really read within the lines to understand her, too bad there is not much dialogue to make that more noticible.

 

Bao-Dur: Following Orders.

 

Agree to a point.

 

Bao-Dur is following his old friend, of course he is the one more likely to be under the force bound.

 

Kreia: Send her to the Loony Bin.

 

Kreia is the Exile Mentor, she is trying to mold the Exile into something to serve her purpose.

 

 

 

Visas: Surprised at power, starts off wanting to join the winning side.

 

No.

 

Visas sees in the Exile a kindred spirit, they both watched a planet die and Visas wanted to serve the Exile when she seen the Exile the first time in the force (not when they battled in the Hawk).

 

She also sees in him someone that can destroy her former master.

 

She personaly explains why if you are a LS male just before going to see Atris, of all she is the easier to understand because she says everything.

 

These are breif discriptions of possible motivations... They are POSSIBILITIES, not the actual motivations per se.

 

I disagreed, I also explained why in brief (perhaps because there is really not that much, I almost turned Mira into a Jedi and I cannot read much out of her except her doubts when mind reading and the others are really not much better except Kreia and Visas for obvious reasons) as the very last thing I think of the characters created by BioWare are anything that can be filled in one liner as to motivation, they are more complex that BioWare characters even if they are not as exposed as BioWare characters ... and that is a flaw.


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I will depart this discussion and leave it to everyone's own devices.

 

However, I do wish to say this:

 

My intent for starting this thread was to hopefully help me understand why I possibly was not understanding the story to some extent... And it has.

 

I've learned... Through responses on this thread and others I've read... That the main problem (in my eyes) is that the main narrative that I was (am) looking for is found mostly through the influence gameplay mechanic more than the direct and indirect iteractions with the NPCs you encounter as well as your party NPCs as it was in KOTOR I.

 

I just feel that this may not necessarily be the best way to present the core story because there is the distinct possibility you will basically miss "it" (mostly, Kriea who goes into explicit detail about most of the things you have questions about (Scion; Nihilus(sp?); Force Wound) if you don't "powergame" the Influence properly strictly for that reason.

 

I know this is a game and that the designers can't anticipate an infinite amount of combinations of how players will play through in this regard... But I also feel that there needs to be an "alternative" way to get the vital backstory on some of the major events and characters WITHOUT having to "powerplay" the Influence function and I do think this, from my perspective as a gamer more than writer, is a problem as far as the game is designed. As I said before, I am not the only one who feels this way as evidenced by the quotes and those brave enough to post who have also chimed in with their responses on this thread as well.

 

I think this is something that OE (and all RPG makers) need to at least take away from any of this (everyone's varied opinions) because I think there is merit to it on at least a strategic/structural level that hopefully won't present itself as a "problem" -- if you view it as such -- in future games.

 

And in closing...

 

The reason why I entitled the thread "From a Writer's Perspective" was in fact to hopefully attract fellow writers AND anyone who likes to read a good story as opposed to those who don't care about story as much as gameplay. That's all.

 

However, it is evident that I committed the cardinal "sin" and actually tried to give a little credibility to what I was saying -- the "semi-professional" writer part (all that means is that I HAVE been paid to write, just not recently and not full-time)... And of course, voilated the Politically Correct paradigm of "don't be proud, be humble" when in fact I and other writers do have a small "right" to be just a little proud of the fact that we are supposedly trained better than non-writers in knowing what goes into a good story... Just like the CPA in my tax law analogy...

 

But it is obvious that it hurt some people's egos (why I said it violated the Politically Correct paradigm) and there is nothing I can do about that. I'm not going to apologize for it.

 

However, you know what they say. Opinions are like A-holes, right? Everyone's got them... Especially, on the internet.

 

If what I said offends you (all those who feel slighted) that much... Then maybe you should take some time off from this board and the internet all together because all it is, in the end, is just a bunch of text on a monitor. I don't "know" you and you don't know me.

 

But I do want to thank you... ALL of you... For participating in this discussion and I will leave you be.

 

By the way, notsofast... Your posts come off as the most condescending of them all no matter how you try and twist it arond on me. You procede to lecture me like some child when you don't know a damn thing about me.

 

At least I listened to my detractors on this thread and even in the face of what I consider melodramatic reactions to some of the things I've said... I still consider what they are saying (said) as it has helped me see what they are in fact saying between the lines. You could possibly learn a little of that humility that I was talking about above.

 

Good day.

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For all its worth, I agree ... it was not the best way to deal with the story using the influence system.

 

I think its one of the "we run out of time" issues that this game have, the influence system is flawed because as it stands not only it keeps key plot points of the story locked away forcing people to use guides and take choices against their current playstyle just to unlock then and in the end its the NPCs that influences the player character because even a full darkside character turned into the light still wants the player to kick puppies in the street.


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But it is obvious that it hurt some people's egos (why I said it violated the Politically Correct paradigm) and there is nothing I can do about that. I'm not going to apologize for it.

Hahaha. OMG - that was the most amusing thing in a litany of self-absorbed amusing things you've said on this thread.

The only ego issue I've seen or had to deal with in this thread was your bloated ego. Frankly your skills as a writer may be far better than what you show on this thread, but with only this thread to go on, I see nothing that threatened my own faith in my abilities whatsoever. And even if I had - I am not an envious person - I do not need you to suck to be happy with myself, so no, you did not "hurt my ego" at all, and I doubt you hurt anyone else's either. The thought that you even believe you could is just more proof of your own megalomaniacal manner.

You keep missing the whole point of what so many writers on this thread have called you on - your supposed status as a self-described writer gives you no additional expertise or insight with which your opinion somehow becomes more valid than anyone elses.

Your first post was unconvincing and many of the problems you had with the story were problems with your insight and your comprehension of the storyline.

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But it is obvious that it hurt some people's egos (why I said it violated the Politically Correct paradigm) and there is nothing I can do about that. I'm not going to apologize for it.
...your supposed status as a self-described writer gives you no additional expertise or insight with which your opinion somehow becomes more valid than anyone elses. ..

actually it does if he's a good writer, doesnt if he's not a good writer and you cant judge that by a couple of forum posts. thats why when its time to write a script or a story, you dont call the programmers to do it, you hire a writer. they usually have studied the language they write in more than the average person and can translate a story into written form better. they also use fancier words than better so it doesnt sound boring.

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For all its worth, I agree ... it was not the best way to deal with the story using the influence system.

 

I think its one of the "we run out of time" issues that this game have, the influence system is flawed because as it stands not only it keeps key plot points of the story locked away forcing people to use guides and take choices against their current playstyle just to unlock then and in the end its the NPCs that influences the player character because even a full darkside character turned into the light still wants the player to kick puppies in the street.

 

I think the faults lie very much at the players feet myself. If you cant play the game without keeping to your character (because you want to know every little detail) then your cant really claim to be roleplaying can you.

 

It took me four playthroughs from different angles to get the complete picture. Each character got a slightly different take on events, due to who they were closest to in the game. Which was superb.

 

Compared to KOTOR where everyone stood around ready to spoonfeed you bits of the story whenever you gained a level it was a refrshing and much deeper way of doing things. Not perfect, of course but leagues ahead of the KOTOR system.

 

Roleplaying should be about important choices. If that cuts you off from some aspects of the game (like not being able to turn certain characters because you dont have the same outlook so be it) I dont think it's something Obsidian needs to appologise for just because KOTOR gave it to you easy.


I have to agree with Volourn.  Bioware is pretty much dead now.  Deals like this kills development studios.

478327[/snapback]

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playing the game 4 times just to get the story was superb? i'm glad you were not involved in making this game... i stuck to rp and i got the whole main story the first time through. only reason i went at it again was to be darkside this time.

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playing the game 4 times just to get the story was superb? i'm glad you were not involved in making this game... i stuck to rp and i got the whole main story the first time through. only reason i went at it again was to be darkside this time.

 

Try reading the post it really helps.

 

Based on this

 

the whole story and dialog seems very unprofessional. i doubt the person who wrote it is actually a professional writer. i was really disappointed with all of the jedi's (dark and light) dialog, they just spewed a bunch of crap while everyone in the game pretended it made sense.

 

and if they're going to make a character as annoying as kreia they should at least give you an option to kick her off the ship or kill her. wtf kind of reject fortune cookie did she get her wise "dont give 5 credits to a bum or he will be killed" lesson? ffs why the hell would the mugger care if he actually earned the 5 creds or if he was just given it. either way he would have killed and taken it, how the hell is it my fault for giving him 5 credits. why the hell does my character pretend that made sense and why dont i get a "get the hell off my ship, moron" option?

 

 

I very much doubt you did anyway :thumbsup:


I have to agree with Volourn.  Bioware is pretty much dead now.  Deals like this kills development studios.

478327[/snapback]

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actually it does if he's a good writer, doesnt if he's not a good writer and you cant judge that by a couple of forum posts. thats why when its time to write a script or a story, you dont call the programmers to do it, you hire a writer. they usually have studied the language they write in more than the average person and can translate a story into written form better. they also use fancier words than better so it doesnt sound boring.

Being a writer, even a good writer, gives him (or me, or anyone) no better insight than simply being a good reader. It certainly does not make his opinion any more valuable, despite his arrogance. And you cannot tell me someone who claims not to be "conceded" has studied the language.

Fancy words have nothing to do with a good story. At all. In fact, fancy words can cause a good writer to lose their audience, if overdone.

While critics seem to dislike Stephen King and Dean Koontz, for an example, those two writers both have a real gift for natural storytelling - you read them and you don't notice their words - you lose yourself in their stories. That's how it should be.

As for my own writings, I'll take the opinion of an experienced and thoughtful reader over an inexperienced and over-inflated "writer" anyday.

 

(Edited for quotes gone wild! Had to replace misplaced tags for italics. LOL!!)

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True. The other important thing here is that an RPG is not a book. It's a game and therefore it cant be written like a book. In a book you have absolute control over events. In an RPG it's a matter of odds and choices.

 

In an RPG it's as much for the player to create the character and give it motivation, relaise it's place in the world etc. It's not the job of the writer.


I have to agree with Volourn.  Bioware is pretty much dead now.  Deals like this kills development studios.

478327[/snapback]

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Master Dahvernas,

 

I enjoyed reading your thoughtful opinions about the story line in Kotor 2 and agreed with much of what you said. I even appreciated your acknowledgement of yourself as a writer as a way of supporting your viewpoint. I didn't think you came off as being inherently better than other people because of your skill and experience as a writer; but rather, you seemed to be saying that because of where your particular skills in life lie, you could, perhaps, offer insights and points of view about the story in Kotor 2 that the typical player may not have seen at first; and like I said, I can appreciate that. I'm sorry that some of those who disagreed with your viewpoint felt it necessary to nitpick and even flame you in that regard; but then again, things have seemed a bit tense in these forums lately especially with the recently announced prospect of them being closed.

 

I personally tried my best to enjoy the story in Kotor 2 and found the dark and ambiguous nature of the story initially intriguing. But I felt like I was reading a novel that was missing every tenth page as well as the last tweny pages. So I wasn't surprised to later learn that many compelling and even essential aspects of the game's story had been edited out in order to meet a rush that would satisfy Lucasarts' greed. The game's story is quite literally an unfinished and incomplete work. I realize that the unfinished state of this story may actually be more appealing to some, for perhaps it lets the power of their own imaginations, whether they realize it or not, fill in all the story's blanks with reflections of their own self (and who doesn't love a story about themself :thumbsup: ). But one would have to wonder if they would still like the story as much if Obsidian had been given the opportunity to complete it according to their original vision.

 

I wish I could have had the complete story, for then I could make a more final judgement to its quality. But based on the story we do have, I find myself generally agreeing with you. So thanks for your post.

 

LLN

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kbned

 

The educated opinion stopped when he said that everyone that don't agree with him are idiots.

 

and your comparsion with the review of the code by a programmer is totally out of place and just a comparsion that try to give you credits why?

 

 

because generally a non programmer doesn't know anything about code, if i speak you in a language you don't know i can't ask you to understand me.

 

a story is something that everyone have knowledge to a degree, we start to hear them when we are kids and for all our life we will hear stories (books, movies, games, music and so on).

 

a writer should have a good knowledge of how to build a story and of a good structure, but for the reasons stated above this doesn't imply that a reader can't have a good knowledge too.

 

also note that is the people that read that actually decide if a writer is good or not, he can think to be the best writer in the world, but if people doesn't understand what he is writing that is just his opinion.

 

 

and sorry but i don't see how to citate the family of other posters can show your point of view, your statement was totally pointless and in my opinion just a cheap attemp to irritate other people.

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