Jump to content
  • Sign Up
Sign in to follow this  
hawk

What the Jedi masters hoped to accomplish

Recommended Posts

So after you have done all planets and come back to Dantooine you meet with the Jedi Masters, if you play lightside.

Then they tell something about you, that your influence to others is dangerous. And that you led the Sith towards them. And even though you have achieved LS mastery they want to cut you off from the force.

Are they completely insane? Do they fear for their own lives??!!

I mean, if they are wise they would use you as bait. (Anakin Skywalkers tactics with Padme).

I think that if they cut you off from the force they have missed the opportuntity to restore peace to the galaxy. It makes no sense, they trained Revan to find this Star Forge and now that the republic is crippled and Jedi gone into hiding they wish to do nothing? Like they did in the Mandalorian Wars?

 

Has anyone got a good idea of what they would accomplish with you cutting off from the force.


Master Vandar lives!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Other than stopping you being able to do what Darth Traya wants you to do? I assume that, if you are cut from the Force, you won't be able to affect the force-sensitive people anymore

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

They are fallen to the Dark Side anyway since the Jedi Code they say they obey states REDEMPTION and UNDERSTANDING and FORGIVING...

NOT revenge(exiled one because he joined Revan for a JUST case and then AFTER Revan walked the dark path he CHOSE to come back to face the trial),

 

Revenge is the path to the dark side...

 

Furthermore,the Exile survived without the Force the Masters treasure so much and CANNOT live without(Jeez,sounded like a crap song lol).

Revan was first discovered and first trained by Kreia which herself was Exiled at one point by teh Council.Revan USED the Masters for his own agenda,not the other way around

 

The want to cut you from the Force because they are afraid of what you have became...a Jedi who is NOT governed by the Force`s will and can make CHOICES independent of the way of the Force. They are afraid of what you represent,they cannot understand you thus they wish to destroy what they cannot comprehend

 

IMHO...

 

SIDENOTE:They were nothing more than cowards who hid behind big words and lied to themselves that peace is an option even with a blaster pointed to the head.

Revan did the RIGHT thing,Exile did the RIGHT thing(Mandalorian Wars)(for Galaxy`s sake NOT for the Republic nor the Sith)...that contradicts the Jedi way(prechings,code,way of life) and such instead of changing the way the CODE is flawed they decided to destroy all that won`t obey it or cast them out

 

They are driven by fear and cowardice for THEIR pathetic narrow vision of the Galaxy and suddenly realised that one can see it as a whole..actually two(Revan as the visionary and Exile as the choices)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I also share the opinion that all three masters have fallen to the dark side, and their actions are not those of a Jedi. According to one of the dialogue options with handmaiden, losing the force is like having all of your other senses stripped away from you. To have that done deliberately by someone else is torture of the highest level, painless or not. In certain universes, "good" people might act in such a way and retain their "goodness" because of their motives. But in the Star Wars universe, "the ends justify the means" is not compatible with the light side of the force or the Jedi code.


Hawk! Eggplant! AWAKEN!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I also share the opinion that all three masters have fallen to the dark side

 

Actually make it FOUR Masters..one dead on Korriban and Atris as well Dark Side ...Kreia only delivers the final push to let her embrace fully the Dark Side :)

 

Lucky you get to save at least one :p

 

EDIT:Sweet irony..Saving the prosecutioner...getting taught by the padawan...being saved by one you are not even calling Jedi ... being taught what you had to follow ... shown mercy by the one you hated so much :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I also share the opinion that all three masters have fallen to the dark side

 

Actually make it FOUR Masters..one dead on Korriban and Atris as well Dark Side ...Kreia only delivers the final push to let her embrace fully the Dark Side :)

 

Lucky you get to save at least one :p

 

EDIT:Sweet irony..Saving the prosecutioner...getting taught by the padawan...being saved by one you are not even calling Jedi ... being taught what you had to follow ... shown mercy by the one you hated so much :)

 

Well, when I say three, I don't count Vash because she's dead, and I don't count Atris because that's so obvious, whereas with the others it requires a little thought to come to the conclusion that they have fallen to the dark side, rather than fallen to the ground and banged their head causing them to just be stupid. It is the three on Dantooine to which I am referring.


Hawk! Eggplant! AWAKEN!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Have they fallen? Absolutely. But why? Fear of death, as their being hunted. And a HUGE amount of guilt at being wrong and not getting involved in the Mandalorian wars as well. When they tell the Exile the fall of the Jedi is his fault, they know perfectly well its their fault not his. That sort of guilt can do nasty things to people who aren't force sensitive, I'd think it would be even worse for a force user. Kez says you were right on Nar Shadda for your past, and Kavar still seems supportive, well, if you're LS anyway. Only the weasel Vrook is still in denial, and he drags the others with him with the whole "cut him off cause he's a threat" bit. Who knows, when he talks about you dominating others, maybe its because thats what he does and he sees you as competition.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
So after you have done all planets and come back to Dantooine you meet with the Jedi Masters, if you play lightside.

Then they tell something about you, that your influence to others is dangerous. And that you led the Sith towards them. And even though you have achieved LS mastery they want to cut you off from the force.

Are they completely insane? Do they fear for their own lives??!!

I mean, if they are wise they would use you as bait. (Anakin Skywalkers tactics with Padme).

I think that if they cut you off from the force they have missed the opportuntity to restore peace to the galaxy. It makes no sense, they trained Revan to find this Star Forge and now that the republic is crippled and Jedi gone into hiding they wish to do nothing? Like they did in the Mandalorian Wars?

 

Has anyone got a good idea of what they would accomplish with you cutting off from the force.

 

They are afraid by the exile and blind by the force.

They can't understand a live whitout the force and can't understand what the Exile really is, they see him as a hole in the force, as the death of the force as many times is said, i think they fear to follow his example (or to be forced to do that by his links) and they can't see a life whitout the force (as they say a man whitout the force is blinded, incomplete and so on).

I really don't hink they are DS, is just their ignorance and their fear or a sort of "survival instinct" that make them act that way.

 

about their original plan

They hided on various planets to await to enemies to show up, most of the jedi where "misteriously" killed, they know that if they will stay togather they will be an easy prey so their plain is to divide.

Also the Exile was used by Atris to try to set a "trap" for the siths.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think you've passed closed to the solution. But in fact, for me at least, they have fallen to the light side.

 

It's not a joke. It's written between the lines in the whole game, the temptation of goodness is as dangerous as the temptation of badness. I'm sure they are suffering of their decission and I'm sure they think it's the best one for everybody and that why they don't admit the paradox of their own attitude. They are blinded by the light side as much as the sith masters are blinded by the dark side.

 

Sure, they fear you. Not because of what you can do, but because you exist. You are the contradiction of their life. Their life is a constant fight between light and dark, blind, terrible and with many casualities. They understood what Revan did. Revan was the one who showed everybody that the teaching of the Jedi was the same as the teaching of the Sith, only the inverse, but it does revolve around the same mistakes, the connection with the force.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The idea that they fell to the dark side does make sense. When they succeed in cutting you off from the force they would fight the other Sith only to claim their title as Dark Lord, at some point they would turn on each other.

As one of the few, the Exile was a true threat to the Sith just like Revan (if LS). Hopefully, the story in Kotor III is as great as was the first Kotor and will explain (almost) everything.

Good points.


Master Vandar lives!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
The idea that they fell to the dark side does make sense. When they succeed in cutting you off from the force they would fight the other Sith only to claim their title as Dark Lord, at some point they would turn on each other.

As one of the few, the Exile was a true threat to the Sith just like Revan (if LS). Hopefully, the story in Kotor III is as great as was the first Kotor and will explain (almost) everything.

Good points.

Motivating their attitude with the Exile saying "they are DS" is just like saying that they want to destroy the Exile just because they are evil and you are good.

You are reducing what the exile is to "just a good guy"

 

In my opinion this good vs evil is almost inexistant in this game, all is about what the Exile his and his path of enlightment.

 

Also consider how they act against the Exile, they don't try to kill him, they express their doubt and for them their action is just needed, look and how Kreia act with them, they are just kids for her, kids that can't understand.

Now look how Kreia act with Atris, and how Atris act with the exile, the difference is quite clear.

 

I found the term "felt to light side" very nice, and is what probably happens, all the jedi or sith we meet in the game (and probably all the ones we know) are too attached to the force to the point that they will die instead of recide their bounds (probably what happened on Malachor), so here their fear and ignorance for the paradox of the exile, both if they are LS or DS.

 

The exile is a therat not just to the DS but to all the force.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

They fall to the Dark Side? No, they are not even a Jedi, they have doubted in Jedi teachings, Master With-A-Weird-Name from Nar Shadda told that he is not a Jedi, that Exile is more the Jedi than he ever was. I think that all they are Jedi no longer, they only afraid that Exile will destroy the Force, the real Jedi is the Exile and his Padawans, this Masters has fallen deep in ignorance and arogance, they can't see that they are too weak to be the real Jedi, and too weak to fight with the Sith without Exile. They don't care about Republic nor Galaxy, they only want to save the Force blinded with they fear.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

None are much of a Jedi.

 

Heck even in the prequels the Jedi were in missions areound the galaxy to bring peace ... either by words or lightsaber.

 

Extreme pacifism is wrong, the Jedi could not be the protectors of the Republic if all they did was sit around and talk, refusing to get involved beyond thet is not much of a help.

 

If we look at it the Republic it becames the Empire because it was too dependent of the Jedi, the Galaxy might need the Jedi but not be dependent of then.

 

I agree its unability to understand the Exile that makes then act that way, they are wrong in doing so and by trying to kill then it just shows the lack of faith they have in the Force, if the Force was to be destroyed by him there would be nothing they could do about it, like Anakin that brought balance to the Force despite being turned to the Dark Side.


drakron.png

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

But Solan, in that, they are more Jedi than the Exile.

For the Jedi, it's not saving the republic that is important, nor saving lives. It's all about the light side. It's something higher than the republic, or people.

You should have a closer look at what people say about Jedis in the game. They show arrogance and inhumanity. Not because they have fallen to the dark side, but because they think that the light is higher than humanity.

 

That's what I called "fallen to the light side". It's no more humanity. If they had a bit of humanity, they would have reacted during the mandalorian wars, but they never moved, because they knew there was something behind it that was a bigger threat to the force. I.e., they were blinded by their code to the point they didn't choose to reject the code at a time they needed to.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
But Solan, in that, they are more Jedi than the Exile.

For the Jedi, it's not saving the republic that is important, nor saving lives. It's all about the light side. It's something higher than the republic, or people.

You should have a closer look at what people say about Jedis in the game. They show arrogance and inhumanity. Not because they have fallen to the dark side, but because they think that the light is higher than humanity.

 

That's what I called "fallen to the light side". It's no more humanity. If they had a bit of humanity, they would have reacted during the mandalorian wars, but they never moved, because they knew there was something behind it that was a bigger threat to the force. I.e., they were blinded by their code to the point they didn't choose to reject the code at a time they needed to.

 

Probably was not too clear when i citated the "fallen to light side", i spoke mostly of the attachment of jedis/siths with the force and probably reduced the "lack of humanity" that is it's defining factor.

 

Just want to say that when i spoke about it had this vision in mind and the reference to the inability to cut their bounds is just a consequence of it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Peace-Knowledge-Serenity-Harmony-The Force - Jedi Code

Now...the JEDI are supposed to be teh balance through their connection with the Universe...while the opposing Sith believe in using the passions to fuel the Power.

Now...we have the Code followed by the book and BECAUSE of the Code which is flawed and BECAUSE of the JEDI teachings that are flawed so many gone to the Dark Side/joined the Sith/joined Revan

 

Now..we have the great Mandalorian War were Revan.Malak and their followers exile included gone to war AGAINST Jedi teaching...a war that COULDN`T be avoided..a war that was NECESSARY to save teh Galaxy regardless of the Republic or Sith. It needed a brilliant tactician(Revan) and a General with backbone(Exile)..both were Jedi. I will not comment here about Revan who was the ONLY one to have foresaw what will be to come and what is to be done hence his departure...nor exile`s decision to cut himself from the Force

 

The Jedi Council`s meaning was REDEMPTION,FORGIVNESS and IMPARTIALITY

Now..we have a guy who NEVER had crossed to the Dark Side(he served Revan in the war and when Revan begun to fall to the Dark Side that guy decided to go back to face his judgement - a very Jedi-ish if you ask me and a lot of courage and dignity in it`s choice - the Exile of course)

 

Atris loved him(love is not permitted among the Jedi) and seen him as what she could never have been - love leads to the Dark Side say the Jedi way which is nonsense(Jolee Bindo explains it very well in kotor 1)

The others can`t forgive him for the RIGHT choices he made which is NOT the Jedi way...furthermore they HIDE information to him on what was their hyphotetisis on what happened to him... and treat him more or less like a Sith while he NEVER had gone to the Dark Side and also exile him for a crime he did not commit(he was NOT Revan)

They fail to understand that they are mistaken and actually Revan was right and it was THEIR indecision that led to millions of lives lost;they don`t even TRY to understand ...all they do is EXILE or strip of the Force anyone that DOES NOT OBEY the Coucil`s will/command/directive/word

They long lost their impartiality and now punish every single jedi that has gone to teh Mandalorian Wars...that is NOT the Jedi teaching nor the Jedi way... it looks more like "Obey us or face Exile or we voodoo you and we`ll cut you from the Force just because you did what WE think it was wrong" but actually it was RIGHT

 

In their judgement they were ARROGANT,SELFISH and NOT IMPARTIAL,deliberately disregarding THEIR Code..THE Jedi Code - THAT is the path to the Dark Side

That Council was a corrupt one,either by personal feelings(Atris - betrayed by her "lover") or by inability to see/desire for REVENGE(why revenge - The Exile is judged more or less as he was Revan and if not this he is judged and punished BECAUSE he disobeyed the Council). There was no defender`s word...it was only Council`s decision based on their HATRED on Revan(who was the ONLY one who saw the big picture)

 

So they were Jedis no more ever since the Mandalorian war started..they were no longer Jedis ever since the first Jedi departed because they LUSTED to exile or cut from Force or even a trial...either way they put THEIR feelings above the Jedi Code..the Code they are supposed to follow and protect

 

________________

 

Speculation:They are all potential Sith Lords...if not they certainly don`t follow the Code any longer(they only try to cut the Exile from the Force),scared of what he may represent(a JEDI who no longer is driven by the Force BUT he has the CHOICE of doing or not doing)

And to comment the Jedi Code...where in the Master`s behaviour can you find Peace,Serenity,Harmony? Even knowledge they don`t have...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In the holo and also in the game is quite clear that the Exile was not exiled because he followed Revan or because he fought on Malachor V committing terrible things...

 

The Exile probably alredy judge himself guilty, but this is another history :lol:

 

The council cast the exile away for what he become and for the danger they saw in him.

 

In the holo you discover that there is something else, and speaking about it with varius masters it become more and more clear that was not your partecipation in the war the reson.

The biker jedi master in particular (if i remember right) seem to feel quite guilty for that decision, and Vosh(?) (the female master of Korriban) seemed to not agree with the decision the council made. (sad that she died as i think she said to the exile some very interesting thing... maybe she died for that reason?)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

KotOR I and II mirrors the prequels Jedi Order a little too well (with is incorrect in relation to the Order shown in the TotJ comics but lets not go over there) and that is why you can see why the Jedi Hunt (in the movies) started in the first place.

 

The Jedi became arrogant and over confident in their teachings, even if it does not put then into the dark side they are weaken by that.

 

I remenber in KotOR I that either Reven or Carth said if the Jedi Order would had gone along with Revan its possible that he would not had fallen to the Dark Side, in many ways Revan falling into the Dark Side was caused by the Order refusal to fight the Mandalorians.


drakron.png

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Without Master Vandar, the Jedi Council has become a council of morons. <_<

They break the Jedi code by trying to murder the Exile.

They are so involved in trying to eradicate Exile that they don't even notice that a Sith Mistress is in the other room.

They get killed by one move from Traya.

They aren't smart enough to join the Exile in defeating the Sith Lords, then murder the Exile.

 

Master Vandar would have never stood for such idiocy and duplicity. He would have looked for a solution. He would have given the Exile a chance at redemption. Long live Master Vandar! :cool:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
In the holo and also in the game is quite clear that the Exile was not exiled because he followed Revan or because he fought on Malachor V committing terrible things...

 

The Exile probably alredy judge himself guilty, but this is another history :lol:

 

The council cast the exile away for what he become and for the danger they saw in him.

 

In the holo you discover that there is something else, and speaking about it with varius masters it become more and more clear that was not your partecipation in the war the reson.

The biker jedi master in particular (if i remember right) seem to feel quite guilty for that decision, and Vosh(?) (the female master of Korriban) seemed to not agree with the decision the council made. (sad that she died as i think she said to the exile some very interesting thing... maybe she died for that reason?)

 

He was judged because they thought he gave in to the Dark Side which he never did...and they never wanted to hear his words actually.Also he was Exiled because of the CHOICE he made which I can`t see how it contradicts the Jedi Code. They FEAR him and what he represents and as COWARDS they choose to exile him instead of healing him or trying to understand what actually happened to him

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The flaw in the jedi code : if you are a jedi, you are no more a human being, no emotion, no passion...

 

it's the same flaw in the sith code. It's an ideal, it's not a way of life.

 

In that, the master jedis are more jedi than human. Is pity the same thing as forgiveness ? is redemption the reverse of corruption or is it the same thing ?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[He was judged because they thought he gave in to the Dark Side which he never did...

Where they say that?

Ig he gave up to DS he was with Revan and never chose to "answer" to council call.

 

and they never wanted to hear his words actually.Also he was Exiled because of the CHOICE he made which I can`t see how it contradicts the Jedi Code. They FEAR him and what he represents and as COWARDS they choose to exile him instead of healing him or trying to understand what actually happened to him

Ignorance play a big role here, they can't heal what they can't understand and they can't understand what they can't see (or feel anymore).

They think that is just necessary... but this is not a sign of DS

 

and i think too that master Vandar was not of same opinion, he never gave the impression to have "lost" his humanity ehm frogity ano to be totally blinded by the force.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
The flaw in the jedi code : if you are a jedi, you are no more a human being, no emotion, no passion...

 

Its not a flaw.

 

The Jedi Code can be interpetraded that way with leads to the problems we see.

 

Nothing in the code says to strip away emotions, it simply says "there is no emotion, there is peace" with means to try not make decisions in the heat of the moment.

 

it's the same flaw in the sith code. It's an ideal, it's not a way of life.

 

The Sith Code was made up by BioWare, the Sith appears to belive in the basic law the strong have the right to rule over the weak, problem with that is that its not much of a good law.

 

In that, the master jedis are more jedi than human. Is pity the same thing as forgiveness ? is redemption the reverse of corruption or is it the same thing ?

 

They are being more human that Jedi, they show all the human flaws and none of the Jedi strenghts.


drakron.png

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Without Master Vandar, the Jedi Council has become a council of morons.  <_<

They break the Jedi code by trying to murder the Exile.

They are so involved in trying to eradicate Exile that they don't even notice that a Sith Mistress is in the other room.

They get killed by one move from Traya.

They aren't smart enough to join the Exile in defeating the Sith Lords, then murder the Exile.

 

Master Vandar would have never stood for such idiocy and duplicity. He would have looked for a solution. He would have given the Exile a chance at redemption. Long live Master Vandar! :cool:

I agree that there are only some wise masters: Vandar - True, I hope to see him in Kotor III, or better as an NPC. Don't give me that stupid answer that Revan killed him if Revan was DS! I explained ones that if you only see a ship being blown to dust it means that some escaped including Vandar.

 

Second wise (good potential) Master: Jolee Bindo. If he was there, there could have come some solution to the problem. Other then the one Darth Traya did.

 

Anyway, I bet the galaxy is better off without these do called wise masters of the Jedi Council.

Some would say that they have fallen to the light side, others say that they fell to the dark side. I will agree that they have fallen. Lets say, fallen to the force!

 

Fallen to the force because the Exile is seen as the death of the force. And this Death of the force, will bring balance to the universe. I think it's quiet obvious that we are playing a character with has a great affect to the universe whichever path he/she takes. The chosen one 4000 years before the rise of the Galactic Empire.

 

Just face it, the death of the force! That would bring balance to the universe! The galaxy is indeed much better of without the force.

Final note: The Death of the force will never happen! Otherwise, there would be no Jedi after this death. Or maybe 4000 years later but I doubt it.


Master Vandar lives!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...