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You know, i was just thinking (i dont know if this has been done before)...But what if there was some sort of "Gamers Association" (GA) where people like us can join.

The sole objective is to ensure that gamers around the globe get what they deserve, quality games.

 

I know we can feel unsatisfied after playing <<Insert your game name here>>. We feel angry, cheated, knowing it could have been better, should have had more patches etc etc. We whine incessantly for better support, fixes, value for money, but our emails get silently dumped in junkmail. Ocassionally we are replied from the divine powers with a

 

**Force persuade** - "...Download the latest drivers and all will be fine..."

 

response. Gamers then make resolves of our own to "bah! Im not getting the next game published from that guy" expecting 'that guy' to turn from his wicked ways. But in the end, we end up realizing 'that guy' doesnt give a crap to whatever we do. Because individually we are just a grain of sand in a vast desert.

 

Imagine having a few million members under the GA...we will prolly have the "uber strength" needed to muscle our 'requests' to publishers. One email to unscrupolous (or however that is spelled) publishers will contain the voice of many.

I doubt an email of such epic proportions will be responded with a "get the latest drivers" reply.

 

Im not asking for a game that will fly us to the moon and back, but just that games be released in polished state. Im sure that is reasonable and many of us can agree to that. To have an organization that protects our rights.

 

What do you guys in this community think? I dont think a GA is impossible to establish. And i know that such an organization wont happen by shouting "Alakazam" and snapping fingers. But the question is, is it worth doing?

 

"...Alone, we are one against the tide of many. But together...future events may yet be in our favour. Too long have we stayed silent, and the enemy has grown bold in their stride..." - Jedi Master N_United

 

 

Shameless Jedi ramblings aside, hopefully this has seeded some 'influence' needed to push something into motion (hope its not a lock and a lifetime ban:). Crying over spilt milk isnt going to solve anything, but here's some wishful thinking towards a wholesome KOTOR 3 and whatever future games may have for us.

 

*EDIT- by the way, KOTOR2 worked well on my ATI rig...so this is not an emotional rant because i didnt get to play Kotor2. I managed to play with the game only crashing once. I think the game plot was brilliant. But getting repeated dialog trees, subquests being short-handed...i think Kotor2 could've been more polished. Playing the game and seeing some areas blocked out purposefully was just apalling. Its like its there, but you just cant play it*

 

**EDIT: This is a brilliant illustration of what i mean from my first edit. SPOILER WARNING. http://forums.obsidianent.com/index.php?showtopic=30261 **

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Judging from the response you got so far, it is very wishful thinking indeed ;)

 

However, theoretically, such a thing sounds very ambitious and interesting.. Theoretically.. It would require an initial team of dedicated people willing to spend time, money and overall resources on establishing it, but it has potential to become very big and very influential. It is also something no one has really done before, and as such, it could be something very worthwhile..

 

What I was thinking was something along:

 

- Respected homepage, with info, boards, review of games, options for complaining about games, etc. Strictly for members.

 

- Paid membership, though the cost should be low.

 

This is needed to gather resources for hosting the homepage, paying for trips, seminars, etc., and for paying salary to a select few people who would devote all of their time to it. Also this is needed to get recognition from the publishers. An association with 100.000 paying members, who listen to internal gamereviews in that association, WILL be heard, just because of this.. Indeed, if you have a lot of people showing unity towards something, and having money to back it up (e.g., being purchasers of products), those making the products will have to listen, there is no way they could not, as long as they feel not-listening/not doing something would hurt them economically.

 

But this IS wishful thinking right now. Your suggestion at this point to start something like that logically entails that the people willing to work on this, go the way I have outlined. First, they spend time and money to establish it, then they make it their job, and then they can start to influence the industry through select representatives, seminars, presence and power of its members. It is nothing short of a lobby organisation, so popular in the US (and so potentially devastating, but in this case, much more beneficial), you are suggesting. At least if it is to be effective.

 

Do you yourself want to work for this? Do others? If so, then I might be interested myself, in that I see a huge potentiality in it. But, I am not convinced there would be enough people with a burning desire to devote a good deal of their life to it.. Because that would be what is needed, ultimatively.

 

Related to that, it would be really great if gamedevelopers got a Workers Union thing too, and if this Gamers Association worked closely with that Union.. Because if anything, developers are outrageously underpaid and overworked. Naturally I am especially thinking of EA employees here, but it is a common 'understanding' in the industry, that you work a lot and might not get that much in ways of payment (not always the case though), simply because you like it, and even more omniously, simply because if you don't, the firm will hire someone who does, there is no shortage of people eagerly wanting to get into the business, and thus, you have to work 12-18 hours a day.. Every day. Well, in the worst of cases.

 

A Gamers Association as a lobby thing would be good, but we must not be bitchy and unreasonable in using that leverage, if such an association got influence and power. Afterall, developers are humans too, poor hardworking, idealistic humans mostly :) Most of the fault of everything lies with the publishers. It is where the power and money lies too, so a Gamers Association should exert its influence at that level, and a union of gamedevelopers should take care to improve standards for the developers.. The last is not going to happen, but the Association might happen, if it gets enough members.

 

So.. Did you think all of this through, and is it something you want to work on? And what about other people? As for myself, I will for now, limit myself to what I have written, aswell as a semi-show of support, in that I think your initial idea a good, albeit incredibly ambitious one, when thinking it through. It has a lot of potential though.

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Well, that is the purpose of what was suggested, the purpose of a lobby is to band together and bully someone, mostly the government and the media though, but a Gamers Association would, if it was to have the effect wished by United, have to function like that.

 

Oh.. In a 'nice' and reasonable way hopefully..

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Me too.. I would gladly pay for something like that. If such an association could get respected and heard, it would be great.

 

The other thing is, as stated, it has to be very reasonable and balanced in what it does, and the ones organizing it must certainly not be bloodlusting hatemongers ;) However, that should go without saying..

 

Now we have two paying members for you already United :)

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"Such an association will appear sooner or later. I'm sure of it. KOTOR2 clearly shows that things are getting out of hand in the gaming industry.'

 

D R A M A

DWARVES IN PROJECT ETERNITY = VOLOURN HAS PLEDGED $250.

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...The sole objective is to ensure that gamers around the globe get what they deserve, quality games.

...

 

Oh but gamers are getting what they deserve.

 

You think releasing games with technical issues is something that always happened?

 

No, it happened because gamers rather "wait for the patch" that to not buy ... publishers realized thet can put a incomplete game in the market since gamers will buy it.

 

I am not going over storyline and game mechanics, what we have in SW:KotOR2:TSL was exactly what was requested on message boards, the fact they might work or not is irrelevent ... people wanted to play a uber muchkin jedi and that is exactly what they got, they have NO RIGHT to complain that it does not work very well since that is what they wanted.

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"people wanted to play a uber muchkin jedi and that is exactly what they got, they have NO RIGHT to complain that it does not work very well since that is what they wanted."

 

Whatever. Show me evidence of what person WANTING KTORO2 to be buggy. Just one.... whose not insane.

DWARVES IN PROJECT ETERNITY = VOLOURN HAS PLEDGED $250.

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How many treads asking for a early release were here?

 

Many people wanted the game NOW, of course wanting something before its actual completed means a incompleted game and so "bugs".

 

I was not adressing bugs on that BTW, companies release games with know bugs because gamers got used to "patch then", 10 years ago if a game was released with so many problems as TSL it would been trashed on reviews.

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"people wanted to play a uber muchkin jedi and that is exactly what they got, they have NO RIGHT to complain that it does not work very well since that is what they wanted."

 

Whatever. Show me evidence of what person WANTING KTORO2 to be buggy. Just one.... whose not insane.

 

yeah. im kind of curious about who drakron is referring to with that comment. i neither wanted to be a "uber jedi" nor have an incomplete/rushed game. i believe the only thing i ever wanted was kotor2 to be good. not sure how that is "exactly what i got".

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"How many treads asking for a early release were here?

 

Many people wanted the game NOW, of course wanting something before its actual completed means a incompleted game and so "bugs"."

 

Wanting a game as early as possible is not the same as wnated it to be released buggy or incomplete. Nice try though. Only LA, and Obsidian cna make the decision of when the game is ready to be released (obviously LA has final say); not the fans. The game would not have been released otherwise. Besdies, KOTOR2 wasn't really released early at all depsite the fans. Afterall, again, KOTOR2 was ALWAYS scheduled to be released between December 2004 and February 2005. That has not changed at all.

DWARVES IN PROJECT ETERNITY = VOLOURN HAS PLEDGED $250.

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Of course not ... that is why they never fixed that memory leak that is referenced on the readme ...

 

Should I go over the "ghost" HK factory and final planet lost files?

 

The game was rushed to meet the Xmas line, LucasArts gone back on the word of a simulatious PC and XBox release.

 

Not that it matters to Volourn, the Last Jedi ...

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"course not ... that is why they never fixed that memory leak that is referenced on the readme ..."

 

Crap happens. All games have a 'known issues' section in the ReadMe. Nothin' new.

 

 

"Should I go over the "ghost" HK factory and final planet lost files?"

 

Woopity do dah. It's obvious what happened there. Obsidian deisgned the game to be bigger. They realized they werne't going to have enough time to add everything so they cut stuff out. Big deal. BIo did the same with KOTOR1. An entire plant was also cut in KOTOR1 as well as a host of other stuff.

 

 

"The game was rushed to meet the Xmas line, LucasArts gone back on the word of a simulatious PC and XBox release."

 

Irrelevant. The game - both evrsions - were scheduled to come out during thes emonths. The x-box version got out first. What i find hilarious is peopleactually believed that somehow because the PC version had 2-3 extra months that it would be somehow less buggy. Wrong. The game was pretty much done as they wanted it to be back on December more than likely.

 

 

"Volourn, the Last Jedi ..."

 

:D

DWARVES IN PROJECT ETERNITY = VOLOURN HAS PLEDGED $250.

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"Such an association will appear sooner or later. I'm sure of it. KOTOR2 clearly shows that things are getting out of hand in the gaming industry.'

 

D R A M A

Drama or not, I don't care. Look at what's going on. Bloodlines? Bug parade. R:TW ? Same thing. Sims 2 ? lol.

And TSL is the most "dramatic" example of this tendency. So far the most brutal and ruthless case of a game being gutted by the publisher.

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Please Volourn, the Last Jedi ...

 

Fable was to have a dragon, it got cut and even if there are many files that were to be used (such as the mural) there is no playable area for it and it does not work.

 

Things get cut but in HK they left the area, they left the references and appears to be possible to access it on the Xbox using a cheat device.

 

It was cut at the last second since they left the quest refences in the actual game, there is no need to dig the files to see what was cut.

 

Also dont give me the release time, games get pushed all the time ... lets take Jade Empire for example that was moved from end of 04 to now 04/05 ... I guess that is what happens when you have your own QA department and take no bull from the publisher.

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"So far the most brutal and ruthless case of a game being gutted by the publisher."

 

D R A M A

 

 

"Also dont give me the release time, games get pushed all the time ... lets take Jade Empire for example that was moved from end of 04 to now 04/05 ... I guess that is what happens when you have your own QA department and take no bull from the publisher."

 

Game over.

DWARVES IN PROJECT ETERNITY = VOLOURN HAS PLEDGED $250.

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Something like this will never happen 2 words.California LAW.The law here basically protects devs and companys allowing them to release anything they basically want-and i mean anything.

 

If you havent noticed any and all major computer companys are here in southern california and its not for the weather.Activision,Blizzard,Sierra(moved there main office to washington 5 years ago?),Lucas Arts,Interplay,and many more are all located in this state for a reason-with the exception of Bioware whos canadian but then again they make good stuff. :thumbsup:

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Also dont give me the release time, games get pushed all the time ... lets take Jade Empire for example that was moved from end of 04 to now 04/05 ... I guess that is what happens when you have your own QA department and take no bull from the publisher.

Even though I don't like the idea of a 'gamers union' to bully around game studios, that's not a valid example. Bio is large and well established enough to stand up to the publisher and tell them to shove it if the game isn't ready. Most developers can't afford that luxury.

- When he is best, he is a little worse than a man, and when he is worst, he is little better than a beast.

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If you havent noticed any and all major computer companys are here in southern california and its not for the weather.Activision,Blizzard,Sierra,Lucas Arts,Interplay,and many more are all located in this state for a reason-with the exception of Bioware whos canadian but then again they make good stuff. :thumbsup:

 

Interplay is dead and so is Sierra, Sierra is now VU games that are part of Vivaldi universal (that is french).

 

Also Ubisoft and Atari are french and a major publishers, then we have Komani and Square Enix that are japanese, Eidos and Rockstar that is UK based and ... well guess not everyone is based in the US of A.

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Even though I don't like the idea of a 'gamers union' to bully around game studios, that's not a valid example. Bio is large and well established enough to stand up to the publisher and tell them to shove it if the game isn't ready. Most developers can't afford that luxury.

 

Well they were in NWN case (I remenber that well because Atari set the release date in stone around six months before release) ... that game had no many problems during development caused by outside factors its a wonder it did that well.

 

In JE case they are developing a Xbox exclusive game based on their own IP, Microsoft is not going to bully then since they need to titles to sell their Fire Hazard system and BioWare can just retreat their game and go to other publisher (since its 100% owned by BioWare).

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The sad fact is, it would have maybe taken a month to crush all the bugs in KOTOR2 for the PC version. I honestly wonder why after 3 months, and 3 months of knowing of all of KOTOR2 XBox's problems that Obsidian didn't fix it. It's pretty inexcusable. But hey, what can you do, they wasted those 3 months, and we're paying for it. Literally.

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