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In the eyes of TSL, War makes Jedi go evil.


Tyrell

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In TSL it is explained and stuff how the Mandalorian War made the Jedi crave....power and strength and stuff like that. You know, things that are against the Jedi code. War makes the Jedi crave battle and death....atleast thast how TSL puts it.

 

That is why the counsil didn't wan to Jedi to go fight in this War.

 

But what about the Clone Wars? That lasted for 3 years and stuff but yet no Jedi turned evil because of it. Don't say Anakin because even after the wars end he was good, it is the later events that turn him bad.

 

So my question is, TSL makes it seem as if War is a bad thing for Jedi and must be avoided. But yet in the Clone Wars (which is canon) doesn't show that. I've read all of the Clone Wars Novels....Shatterpoint, Laybrinth of Evil, Jedi Trial, Dark Rendevus, and The Cetus Deception. And what was said in TSL doesn't amount to the Clone War.

 

What are your thoughts?

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But what about the Clone Wars? That lasted for 3 years and stuff but yet no Jedi turned evil because of it. Don't say Anakin because even after the wars end he was good, it is the later events that turn him bad.

 

have you read the novels? or just relied on the movies?

 

because ive read every single pt/clone wars novel and in MANY cases theyve made mention of jedi turning "dark" and going to dookus cause.

 

edit: haha i should read more than just half your post. :">

 

but yeah, my original comment still stands. theyve made mentions of jedi going "dark" in the clone wars.

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In some of the stuff I have read, jedi go dark because of war, hate, love, envy, some kid snubbed you in class, etc. Basically any strong emotion makes a jedi "Dark" according to the books/games/stories, which I think is bunk. You can be passionate about something without doing evil stuff. I am still looking forward to the next star wars film. I just wanna see the jedi wiped off the galaxy!

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I beleive Lucas intentionally contradicts the book universe just to prove to the authors that they have no power over his stories. He even commented that if you don't see it in the movie then it's not necessarly true.

 

For example, Lucas never intended Boba Fett to be such a huge character the the fans made him, and thus the book universe gave him grand background story. So, imo, just to spite the authors he gave Fett a different origin story... seems childish and goes to piss off a lot of people but meh. [/tangent]

 

The clone wars no doubt turned a lot of Jedi to the dark side, HOWEVER, I don't beleive that the Jedi of the "new" republic had the exact same ideals as those of the old republic. They were probably a lot more tolerant to their role as protectors, realizing their need to act as well as be mindful of the consequences of those actions.

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Most Jedis turn evil because of the inability to find quality footware near the end of the Republic

 

 

The EU's deal with Boba Fett was that some author knew he could make "easy money" with thwe book so he did it. The EU is a separate more crappy universe and should be treated as such

People laugh when I say that I think a jellyfish is one of the most beautiful things in the world. What they don't understand is, I mean a jellyfish with long, blond hair.

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The Jedi Civil War and Mandalorian War cannot be compared with the Clone Wars.

 

Why?

 

Because one then the Jedi are facing other force users / living people and in the other they are fighting droids. The Jedi feel death and its not a pleasant feeling thus when they kill it taints them slightly (except for self defence).

 

Against droids its a no-brainer.

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In the Expanded Universe, it's shown in several instances that using the Jedi to wage war frequently causes them to question the Jedi code and their duty to an ailing Republic (which is the state of the Republic during the Mandalorian Wars) - and many of these doubts result in Jedi deaths or their fall to the dark side. Many of the Clone Wars graphic novels deal with this, notably the one-shot "Jedi" issues with Yoda, Mace, Count Dooku, and Quinlan Vos. And even those who remain on the path of the light side still find their faith tested when the pressures of war begin to weigh down on them (Shaak Ti). Since TSL takes place in the EU, we felt that was a fair take if we wanted to explore the effect of war on the Jedi.

 

But you're right, it's not movie canon - still, we take Yoda and Mace Windu's view on war: it is not the Jedi's place to wage war, it's to prevent it in the first place, as Mace says, to be "keepers of the peace." Yoda realizes the Republic (and the Jedi) have already lost when he says the Clone Wars have begun in Episode 2, and he knows nothing good will come of it. We felt this was an interesting aspect to try and examine in the Sith Lords.

 

From our standpoint, anyone in touch with life and harmony around them (as Jedi are) who are thrust into a battlefield environment are going to meet some tough challenges, both physically and psychically (as Aton and HK-47 suggest in their backstories). A true Jedi can pull through... but much like the Clone Wars, perhaps it will end up that only two Jedi will survive the entire conflict (Yoda and Obi-Wan), and the rest will die or be corrupted as Vader was. It may be that war itself isn't to blame - it's just a crucible where it's easier for one in touch with the Force to fall to the dark side.

 

Just some thoughts.

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In the Expanded Universe, it's shown in several instances that using the Jedi to wage war frequently causes them to question the Jedi code and their duty to an ailing Republic (which is the state of the Republic during the Mandalorian Wars) - and many of these doubts result in Jedi deaths or their fall to the dark side. Many of the Clone Wars graphic novels deal with this, notably the one-shot "Jedi" issues with Yoda, Mace, Count Dooku, and Quinlan Vos. And even those who remain on the path of the light side still find their faith tested when the pressures of war begin to weigh down on them (Shaak Ti). Since TSL takes place in the EU, we felt that was a fair take if we wanted to explore the effect of war on the Jedi.

 

But you're right, it's not movie canon - still, we take Yoda and Mace Windu's view on war: it is not the Jedi's place to wage war, it's to prevent it in the first place, as Mace says, to be "keepers of the peace." Yoda realizes the Republic (and the Jedi) have already lost when he says the Clone Wars have begun in Episode 2, and he knows nothing good will come of it. We felt this was an interesting aspect to try and examine in the Sith Lords.

 

From our standpoint, anyone in touch with life and harmony around them (as Jedi are) who are thrust into a battlefield environment are going to meet some tough challenges, both physically and psychically (as Aton and HK-47 suggest in their backstories). A true Jedi can pull through... but much like the Clone Wars, perhaps it will end up that only two Jedi will survive the entire conflict (Yoda and Obi-Wan), and the rest will die or be corrupted as Vader was. It may be that war itself isn't to blame - it's just a crucible where it's easier for one in touch with the Force to fall to the dark side.

 

Just some thoughts.

 

 

I don't expect a reply, but I heard that in the latest issue of Game Informer (March 2K5), y'all at Obsidian are doing KOTOR3?!?!?!

 

That would kick some serious ass. And I hope it's for Xbox2, and uses a new engine.

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The Jedi are knights not monks, like medieval knights that went to war for holy causes so do the Jedi for their own religion. I really dislike the extreme pacifism presented for the Jedi, they are too extreme in their views of talking and waiting, and I got that long before I had seen this game.

 

K2 poses moral choice, was going to war the right choice or not. I don't think it fully answeres this question, it poses it for you and lets you make up your mind which answer is the correct one.

 

Even the Jedi of the Clone Wars marched off to war as they did recognize the threat posed for the galaxy, but much like the Jedi in KotOR as the ones from the Clone War era, what led to their downfall imo was specifically their egotist moral views of themselves and their beliefs. War is never good, that much is uncontested but war is sometimes necessary. The Jedi in both eras believed their way is the right and nothing else can be, they are extremely selfish so much so that even Yoda comments on this in Ep2 when he says even the older Jedi are too sure of themselves and too arrogant. They believe themselves superior to those the claim to protect, their code is good in theory but many of their beliefs are too restricting of the individual as a person and the way they relate to others. Separated from their families they can never see again, no love, no possession, no emotional atachments of any kind, it would drive any emotional being nuts from solitude, fatigue and loneliness, not to mention inflate their egos because of their abilities over everyone else and the strict belief their code is the end all be all of morality and true way of life. They had no balance between good and bad, this is why they fell in both eras. That's why Vader had to fall before he could be saved and in turn save everyone else, that's why he was the chose one if you will.

 

This is how I always see it and that's why I loved Jolee in K1, I miss him as a mentor because he could find a way to reach the LS while still balancing our darker nature and desires. The Jedi weren't taught how to deal with emotions and desires like these, they were just forced to supress them indefinately, and so they fell when these things explode to the surface.

 

My two cents.

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During the Clone Wars the Jedi were more or less united in the cause to defend the Republic. With the Maladorians, the Jedi were split, some wanted to fight for Revan and the Republic, while others stayed behind with the council. The Jedi that followed Revan were following a young obsessive Jedi Knight-Master, who the evils of war corrupted himself/herself. Without the councils guidance I think it might have made it easier for many young passionate Jedi to do evil.

Anyway just my two cents. :cool:

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The main reason so many jedi become corrupted during the Mandalorian Wars is because the dark side energies at Malachor 5. Also Revan actively trained Sith Assassins to capture and corrupt Jedi by bringing them to Malachor 5.

 

I believe the entire reason the pivotal battle was fought over Malachor 5 is because it gave Revan to dual opportunity to wield the dark force energies from the planet to rout the Mandalorian forces and simultaneously corrupt the Jedi he had brought to fight for his cause.

 

During the clone wars Sidious' plan wasn't to bring more more jedi to his cause but rather weave a strategy with multiple layers of deceit and betrayal and obliterate the Jedi altogether.

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Light side exile can state that she regrets what she did and wouldn't do it again/or would do it again to end the war.

 

TSL is, in my eyes, a statement about how one good act can have a bad outcome and vice-versa.

 

Of course, it is your choice on what to view it as.

Fnord.

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