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On another level, the concept of corruption, of moral baggage weighing down the universe and cleansing it, is exactly what the Star Wars Expanded Universe is all about. After all, that's what Anakin Skywalker's there for - to put an end to it. We're seeing the buildup of imbalance in the Force that will bring about the need for the clean slate Anakin/Vader will bring.

 

The Jedi Council are not evil as such - they just have such a belief in the light side of the force, and in themselves as the representatives of that light side, that they see themselves as the only ones who can save the galaxy. They don't understand, as Kreia does, that the Exile could be the only one who could defeat Nihilus. They won't let the problem come to its' natural conclusion - they will step in, and try to fix it as best they can with their incomplete understanding, and in doing so doom everything. They rely on the Force to guide their actions - but as far as Nihilus and the Exile are concerned, they are blind on the matter and choose not to admit it. Kreia calls this arrogance, I choose to call it misplaced faith.

 

I think that the arrogance Kreia is referring to is not to the wrong belief that the jedi can fix Nihilus problem

 

I think that she is referring to the judgment about the Exile, they are so blinded by the force that they can't see, they can't understand but still they comdan the Exile just to protect themselves.

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Disclaimer: Skip this post if you want, its way way longer than I anticipated and probably adds nothing new. I just finished the game and when I started typing I couldnt stop. Sorry! :D

 

 

Ok I just finished the game for the first time. I played as a lightside male, 15 consular, 13 weapon master. I played through basically doing endless kind deeds for people I had never met, with the occasional hint of the dark side when confronted with the Jedi council and Kreia trying to play me for a fool. I have been waiting for this game since it was announced, desperately trying to avoid spoilers. Amazingly I did. One thing that was unavoidable to miss however was the complaints about the ending. Without actually reading the complaints, I still became very wary of horrible ending. So much so that it was in the back of my mind when playing ever since I reached level 20ish. Up until that point I had been enjoying the game 100%, was caught up in the plot, finding npcs, earning their trust to get there stories etc, that it just flew by.

 

This is the point I would have to call the peak of the game for me. I had completed the main plots for Onderon and Nar Shaddaa, the two most fleshed out planets imo. I had just started creating my own little Jedi order, G0-T0 and HK-47 joined me completing my NPC roster. However it was at this point that the NPC back stories seemed to be exhausted. I dont think it was me missing stuff, I put Mandalore, HK47, G0T0 and Kreia down to a severe conflict on how we view the galaxy, however I often agreed with HK despite my allignment. So anyway lack of influence seemed to end dialogue with these NPCs (reading the thread I get the impression that HK47/G0T0 never really develop anyway?) while at the same time I reached the point of my party members all becoming Jedi and their dialogues seemed to just end.

 

I was really expecting them to come to ask endless questions about how they should use the force, more guiding them towards/away from the dark side, perhaps even teaching/learning techiques with them. Instead pretty much across the board NPC relationships were no longer progressing. The main attraction of both BG1/PS:T/KotOR for me was the relationships with your party. For this to dry up on the shorter planets of dantooine/korriban had me thinking of a bad ending.

 

Anyway fast forward through loose ends for small quests, that I spent hours trying to tie up, to the Jedi gathering. All goes well, the Jedi codemn me as I suspected, and Kreia finally betrays me. Then things go haywire, jetting from location to location with no say in the matter, getting the Impression you are dancing to Kreia's strings just because the plot says you must. My NPCs seem to take a back seat, only appearing to enforce their way into a party now and then.

 

Anyway after the Ravager I had to put the turn of events down to this: HK-47 deciding to drug my food, disabled my crew and set my ship on a collision course for Malachor V. While escaping to live out his days lovingly shooting out the knees of HK-50 droids with a sniper rifle. All probably suggested by Kreia 'just because'.

 

Anyway more really really rushed stuff with the NPC's outside on Malachor. I was expecting a T3-M4 mission to repair my ship/save my crew on Malachor. Instead it falls into the green put of doom looking like its ready to fall apart. Only to show up later somehow in the middle of the Sith Temple in shiny new condition :p

 

So I soldier on really enjoy the fight/conversation with Darth Sion. Breaking his will to fight as I break his body. A much better done boss confrontation than most games in recent times that I can remember. I liked the final confrontation with Kriea too right up until the cutscene rolled.

 

The planet blows up, seemingly because the doomsday device was set off, which was only meant to happen if my character consented to it? Sure that little droid was described as having unstable motivator whatsymacallit due to excessively long times without a memory wipe. So did Mira stumble upon them kill G0T0 and rewire the droid to blow up the planet without the generals consent or something? Its probably been said a 1000 times but you shouldnt have to come up with crazy what ifs to justify the ending to a great story :(

 

Anyway as the others have said, no final interatction with comrades sucks, and surely it should be the players choice on whether they go off on a lone crusade or not. Personally I would have liked the player to have the choice of hanging around for a bit to establish a new Jedi Order with slightly more proactive views. As through 80% of the game thats really the way I felt my character was playing. Yes the Exile followed Revan in the past, but having turned his back on things when it mattered before, I dont see why he should abandon a Republic he just saved to follow Revan, a Jedi the Exile left behind years and years ago.

 

 

So in conclusion, I went in expecting a horrendous ending and instead found an ending I liked that simply wasnt complete :/ I didnt crash once during the game, running on Catalyst 4.11s. Never had any framerate issues either, occasional slow frame rate but never enough to truly effect gameplay. All the major bugs I saw were dialogue looops / glitchy looking ingame cut scenes which dont bother me much. If anything the worst part was annoyances still there since KotOR1 like my dual saber Jedi loading into every zone with one saber always on the other off, or party members having a 'hidden' default attack queued.

 

 

You ever play Planescape: Torment? If you don't max out Wisdom, Intelligence and Charisma, you practically miss out 1/2 of the background to the plot. And you might not ever find this out unless you are told or you do it by accident. And believe me, that game was deeper, more complex and more in need of exposition than KOTOR 2.

 

And yet, it's still a goddamn masterpiece. This not giving everything to you, right away, it's a Black Isle trademark is what it is. The reason it fails here is because there is not enough in KOTOR 2 besides the main plot to sustain you, unlike in Torment.

 

 

And to finish off this first post which dragged on forever, I agree 100% with everything Credulous said. Despite a long rant on what I didnt like, I am certainly ready to play through the game on a different path to see what I more I can learn/change. I played through PS:T five times with a few attempts I abandoned part way through. I will certainly give KotOR atleast another 2 more tries.

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I have another question, don't flame me here. I may have missed the dialogue (god forbid)

 

How did the sith lord with all the scares (Sion I think?) escape Peragus mining facility if it blew up?

I would assume the same way you did. Plus he had a ship that could take a lot more damage.

And by the light of the moon

He prays for their beauty not doom

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Hey first of all I'd like to say that i'm not an RPG fan, in fact the only one I've ever played is Fallout1&2. Second my wife already hates me enough for spending so much time addicted to kotor2 so I can't really go back and replay it half a million times just for the small bits I may have missed (besides after playing this I want to go and play kotor 1 which it seems is a more finished game).

 

I really enjoyed the game and I tried to go through all the dialogue options but there are bits that just don't make sense, some of them have been covered here, some haven't and was wondering if you guys could shed some light on the game.

 

Additionally kotor2 seemed ridiculously easy, as i said im not an RPG player but I completed the entire game enver having to use a sheid/chemicals/armour/stances upgrades and only using master heal, throw light sabre and stasis... seemed well my game was bugged to make it that easy for a n00b :p

 

Anyway my questions

 

First

Why is T3 hiding where the ships been? Then T3 shots G0-T0? Although after the cutscene they're both running around the ship and I don't get any dialogue options. (Ebon Hawk) (leaving Nar-Shadaar)

 

Second

Why does G0-T0 destroy the Droid yet after the cutscene they're both fine and I don't get any dialogue options? (Ebon Hawk) (leaving Dantooine)

 

Third

HK-47 - is there a story missing regarding the translator?

 

Fourth

Why is Bau-whatever-his-name-alien a hologram projected by the droid on Malachor V? (has he died?) Also who is he being projected to cause the Droid already knows he's instructions so who is Bau-whatever-his-name-alien talking to?

 

Fifth

How does the planet get destroyed with G0-T0 holding the Droid to ransome? Also why does G0-T0 hold the drod to ransome for although he is a dark-side character he wants to save the Republic and I don't get why he'd even need to get involved on Malachor V...

 

Sixth

What happens to the Handmaiden/Visas/Mira love triangle thingy? I get to "see" Visas yet in the future nothing happens between us - so whats the point? I guess who-ever you chose to be intimate with is the person that accompanies you on the Ravager - although is that Visas anyway as she helps you and then goes to her old cell. Can you get intimate with Handmaiden and if so once again whats the point?

 

Wish there had been a long cutscene and chance to tie up lose ends by celebrating vicotry with the crew!

 

Plus why can't you kick characters out of your party? I played as a light-side character and you can tell the dark-side characters are people you just wouldn't want to have around but your forced to stick with them. If a Jedi is so naive to let them hang-around, no wonder there aren't any left!

 

Loved the game up to the end-sequence though.

 

Thanks for any insight!

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I was looking at the FAQ, and I was wondering what happens if you play the game as a neutral character? How does that work. You wouldn't be able to achieve light or dark side mastery or get prestige class. And it says that Visas appears once you are 1/4 of the way light or dark. So would you be able to acquire Visas?

 

Is it possible to play this game and remain true neutral? (or close to it).

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Butler, I have all of those same questions, but forgot to ask them.

 

Osiris I think it is possible to stary neutral, but this would mean flip flopping between lS and DS actions, which would make no sense story wise.

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I don't feel like writing lots of text right now. Otherwise I would write in detail about what this games lacks to make it up with Kotor 1 and games like planescape tourment, Fallout 1&2 or Baldurs Gate 1 & 2, wich are only a small part of the rpgs i've played .

So I'll focus on what for me (yep it's just a personal opinion) is the greatest flaw in the game, namely the bad character introduction.

 

It seems to me that the rpgs i liked best for their story had on thing in common. They all carefully introuced the player into the story. The player always knows enough of the backgrounds to make decisions the way he likes to play and develop his character.

 

It's no problem if there are some secrets in the characters past, as long as the player isn't forced to make decisions on the base of his own unknown past.

Kotor 1 handled this very well. You did not know about being Revan. You had to solve the mystery and you where getting the idea that there is a dark secret while story developed.

 

In Kotor2 the situation is extremly different.

Many times I had to choose dialog options without the slightest idea of what would be the right answer for my style of developing the char, because I had no basis of information about the background.

Everything is set up in the charcters past and everybody is talking to my alter ego as if I should know whats it all about from nearly the begining of the game. That's what demotivated me in many occasions.

Back in planscape tourment i could keep up with things even though much only unfolded late game and in many dialogs with the nameless companions. And i could see if they had something new to say, without trying every single dialog option again and again.

 

If the exiles past had been introduced at the very beginning of the game, giving the player an idea of the frustration of the exile after the descesion he had to make in the mandalorian war, the entire following game would be much clearer and better imho.

The consequences would have been the riddle the player had to solve.

Why was he cut of the force? Was it the councel? An so on.

In the following events the player would get to know that the decision that looked inevitable in the past has something to do with what happens in the game. And he could make decisions on the base of that past, either tending to a dark or a light path.

I actually want to "live" my rpg chars when playing a story based rpg. In this case I just couldn't, because i could not understand his situation throughout more then half of the game.

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I don't feel like writing lots of text right now. Otherwise I would write in detail about what this games lacks to make it up with Kotor 1 and games like planescape tourment, Fallout 1&2 or Baldurs Gate 1 & 2, wich are only a small part of the rpgs i've played .

So  I'll focus on what for me (yep it's just a personal opinion) is the greatest flaw in the game, namely the bad character introduction.

 

It seems to me that the rpgs i liked best for their story had on thing in common. They all carefully introuced the player into the story. The player always knows enough of the backgrounds to make decisions the way he likes to play and develop his character.

 

It's no problem if there are some secrets in the characters past, as long as the player isn't forced to make decisions on the base of his own unknown past.

Kotor 1 handled this very well. You did not know about being Revan. You had to solve the mystery and you where getting the idea that there is a dark secret while story developed.

 

In Kotor2 the situation is extremly different.

Many times I had to choose dialog options without the slightest idea of what would be the right answer for my style of developing the char, because I had no basis of information about the background.

Everything is set up in the charcters past  and everybody is talking to my alter ego as if I should know whats it all about from nearly the begining of the game.  That's what demotivated me in many occasions.

Back in planscape tourment i could keep up with things even though much only unfolded late game and in many dialogs with the nameless companions. And i could see if they had something new to say, without trying every single dialog option again and again.

 

If the exiles past had been introduced at the very beginning of the game, giving the player an idea of the frustration of the exile after the descesion he had to make in the mandalorian war, the entire following game would be much clearer and better imho.

The consequences would have been the riddle the player had to solve.

Why was he cut of the force? Was it the councel? An so on.

In the following events the player would get to know that the decision that looked inevitable in the past has something to do with what happens in the game. And he could make decisions on the base of that past, either tending to a dark or a light path. 

I actually want to "live" my rpg chars when playing a story based rpg. In this case I just couldn't, because i could not understand his situation throughout more then half of the game.

 

Is it true that we don't know too much about the Exile background, sometimes i had some troubles too, but generally i found that my questions/answers gave me an idea of what really happened. Paying a bit attention to all the dialogue options can be a big help most of the time.

 

I agree that it will be better if we had some more info, maybe a diary datapad with the essential events, but in the end i don't think was really necessary for the game, maybe it could be even a restriction to our RP freedom as the same event could appear very different if we see it from a LS or DS perspective.

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I don't feel like writing lots of text right now. Otherwise I would write in detail about what this games lacks to make it up with Kotor 1 and games like planescape tourment, Fallout 1&2 or Baldurs Gate 1 & 2, wich are only a small part of the rpgs i've played .

So  I'll focus on what for me (yep it's just a personal opinion) is the greatest flaw in the game, namely the bad character introduction.

 

It seems to me that the rpgs i liked best for their story had on thing in common. They all carefully introuced the player into the story. The player always knows enough of the backgrounds to make decisions the way he likes to play and develop his character.

 

It's no problem if there are some secrets in the characters past, as long as the player isn't forced to make decisions on the base of his own unknown past.

Kotor 1 handled this very well. You did not know about being Revan. You had to solve the mystery and you where getting the idea that there is a dark secret while story developed.

 

In Kotor2 the situation is extremly different.

Many times I had to choose dialog options without the slightest idea of what would be the right answer for my style of developing the char, because I had no basis of information about the background.

Everything is set up in the charcters past  and everybody is talking to my alter ego as if I should know whats it all about from nearly the begining of the game.  That's what demotivated me in many occasions.

Back in planscape tourment i could keep up with things even though much only unfolded late game and in many dialogs with the nameless companions. And i could see if they had something new to say, without trying every single dialog option again and again.

 

If the exiles past had been introduced at the very beginning of the game, giving the player an idea of the frustration of the exile after the descesion he had to make in the mandalorian war, the entire following game would be much clearer and better imho.

The consequences would have been the riddle the player had to solve.

Why was he cut of the force? Was it the councel? An so on.

In the following events the player would get to know that the decision that looked inevitable in the past has something to do with what happens in the game. And he could make decisions on the base of that past, either tending to a dark or a light path. 

I actually want to "live" my rpg chars when playing a story based rpg. In this case I just couldn't, because i could not understand his situation throughout more then half of the game.

 

I disagree. I thought this was a strong point of the character. They didn't spell everything out. They let us learn as we went, and generally, there was enough info to know how to respond, since they never ask you more than the most simple of questions about what you felt. Its easy to roleplay that. "What did you feel when you killed all those Mandalorians?" was one such question... it doesn't matter exactly how or why it hapened, but its evident you killed a lot of people. That's enough to judge how your character would feel, right there.

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Anyway my questions

 

I'll try my best.

 

First

Why is T3 hiding where the ships been? Then T3 shots G0-T0? Although after the cutscene they're both running around the ship and I don't get any dialogue options. (Ebon Hawk) (leaving Nar-Shadaar)

 

Bad start. I dunno. I never saw this...

 

Second

Why does G0-T0 destroy the Droid yet after the cutscene they're both fine and I don't get any dialogue options? (Ebon Hawk) (leaving Dantooine)

 

Actually, he didn't destroy him, just reprogrammed him.

 

Third

HK-47 - is there a story missing regarding the translator?

 

You betcha. See the "Cut Ending Stuff" thread.

 

Fourth

Why is Bau-whatever-his-name-alien a hologram projected by the droid on Malachor V? (has he died?) Also who is he being projected to cause the Droid already knows he's instructions so who is Bau-whatever-his-name-alien  talking to?

 

He's dead. The projection is just a way of getting the info to the player.

 

Fifth

How does the planet get destroyed with G0-T0 holding the Droid to ransome? Also why does G0-T0 hold the drod to ransome for although he is a dark-side character he wants to save the Republic and I don't get why he'd even need to get involved on Malachor V...

 

Well, G0-T0 holds Remote hostage, but then HK-47 comes in to rescue Remote, but G0-T0 has some new HK-51s with him that he uses on HK-47. But because of your actions in the Droid Factory, the HK-51s won't attack HK-47, and instead follow his orders and attack G0-T0 instead.

 

...What? You didn't get that cutscene?

 

Sixth

What happens to the Handmaiden/Visas/Mira love triangle thingy? I get to "see" Visas yet in the future nothing happens between us - so whats the point? I guess who-ever you chose to be intimate with is the person that accompanies you on the Ravager - although is that Visas anyway as she helps you and then goes to her old cell. Can you get intimate with Handmaiden and if so once again whats the point?

 

Well, the girl with which you have the most influence stays behind at the Trayus academy in order to train new force users for the upcoming was with the True Sith, while you fly away in the Ebon Hawk to find Revan. You didn't get that either?

 

As to the Ravager, I played a female, so I don't know, since the female triangle is Atton/Disciple/Exile.

 

Wish there had been a long cutscene and chance to tie up lose ends by celebrating vicotry with the crew!

 

You really didn't get that? Oh, that's because it and the other parts were cut in order to rush the game out for christmas.

 

Loved the game up to the end-sequence though.

 

You'd have loved the actual end sequence then. Shame it wasn't in the game.

Hawk! Eggplant! AWAKEN!

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I've been thinking about it, and I think you are on to something, Vanarion. I felt the same about my characters past.

 

Wait, Reveilled, Bau-Dur died? When? How?

 

Sorry, I forgot my sarcastic comment at that point about how that was cut too. It isn't explicitly stated that I can see in the cut ending, but it does speak about how Remote reactivating the Mass Shadow Generator will make Bao-Dur's 'sacrifice' worth it. Combine that with comments like "If you are watching this then..." and that in the scene where the whole party confronts Kreia he is not there, you can infer that Bao-Dur is dead by that point in the game. How exactly, I don't know. But I'm confident we'll find out at some point. It's probably buried somewhere in the dialogue trees, so just keep a watch on the "cut ending stuff" thread.

Hawk! Eggplant! AWAKEN!

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Reveilled - Thanks for that, i'm glad it wasn't just me that missed this then as from what some people in this thread have been saying the story makes perfect sense and I was starting to think I'd played it all wrong.

 

On point two I did get a cutscene where G0-T0 re-programs the droid but I also cut one where he definatley blows him up in the engine room. Unless when you say re-program you mean G0-T0 likes doing jig-saw puzzles with little bits of metal.

 

The more I think about the story though the more it just doesn't make sense, any of it... I was reflecting on it and all I could think of is "whats the point of this bit or that bit". Such as whats the point with having the Republic chase you around Telos and have those cutscenes where the Republic are told to "let you go", I can't recall any instances in the game where any of the three bad guys are shown to have influence over the Republic. What's the point of the Exchange? Throughout the first half of the game they seemed ominous and probably linked to the actions of one of the bad guys but after you destroy G0-T0's yacht you're told it would leave a power-vacuum which lets face it, it wouldn't, they'd be some in-fighting and a number two would take charge of Echange operations. How come Kreia loses her hand to Sion but later they team up and she's master of him? Why's the Dantooine militia on Telos - how did they get they're considering they're so under-resources? I got a cutscene where Mandalore was plotting something nasty and Visas asks what and he tells her that it is nothing - what are they plotting? And how was the Exiles and Kriera's force bond seperated as we were told all game that if she died you'd die!

 

Sorry its just bugged me all night coz it seems story wise you might as well have just killed Kreira asap as you knew she was going to be trouble. At the start of the game she's weak like you so it would have been possible (she learns her strenght from you to explain her levelling up with you). Take Sion out on Peragus (why was he even there apart to chop an old ladies hand off) or later at Korriban where you do fight him and he seems very much easier to kill which would have left Nilhus as the main bad guy who'd tie the whole story together (which would have been cool). They way it is the rest of what you do explain nothing as to why you don't just fly straight to Korriban and take out Sion and then have the battle over Telos to take out Nilhus all the time having given the witch a good old kicking in on Peragus.

 

Sorry to rant I just have so many questions - feels like i've read 3/4s of a very good book and then the final 1/4 of a compleltey different book (maybe even a Jeffery Archer novel! :p )

 

Cheers

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No offense, but you missed my point. I should not have to play through "ALL" aspects of the game, to get and understand MAIN PLOT POINTS.

 

You ever play Planescape: Torment? If you don't max out Wisdom, Intelligence and Charisma, you practically miss out 1/2 of the background to the plot. And you might not ever find this out unless you are told or you do it by accident. And believe me, that game was deeper, more complex and more in need of exposition than KOTOR 2.

 

And yet, it's still a goddamn masterpiece. This not giving everything to you, right away, it's a Black Isle trademark is what it is. The reason it fails here is because there is not enough in KOTOR 2 besides the main plot to sustain you, unlike in Torment.

 

You know, I don't mind not having everything spelled out for me in the first hour of playing a game. I played through PS:T several times and greatly enjoyed the expierence. Not once in that game was I confused as to what was going on.

 

But here's the thing, when you are standing on a desolate planet at the end of a game, wondering where you are, why you are there, how you got there, and where your party is... well... that's just poor game design. I shouldn't have to go message boards in a desperate search for the main plot. If I don't understand the main plot, that's not my fault as a gamer, that's their fault as designers. It's their job as storytellers to make sure their audience understands their story. Does this mean that they have to spoon feed the plot to us? No. But the story at the end shouldn't leave people scratching their heads and wonder what the hell just happened.

 

And here's the kicker... I really loved this game until the plot began crashing down after the council at Dantooine. This is a good game, that could have been a great game had it spent a few more months in development.

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In response to tenuveins post and for more insight into my point of view:

 

You really found it sufficient to know that the exile was involved as a general in the battle of Malachor IV with no further info? That's what I knew at the beginning after all. Or did I miss something? How to handle the choices like the following scheme with that info?

 

 

NPC states something about the PCs role in the war and or how he/she did not follow Revan after that.

 

Choices are something like this:

 

A. "My decision was right. There was no other way."

B. "I regret what I've done. The council was right in it's judgement."

C. "The council was weak. I should have followed Revan."

 

Not an exact dialog, but you get the idea. Choice 3 is crystal clear like the most dark path choices (dark path could be more subtle if you ask me, cause other wise it would nor lead to the fall of so many with good intentions but wrong methods).

Playing a light side char first time 1 and 2 gave me a headache - remember the game gives you the impression that your answers will have a great impact on what follows up (witch is - at many points- not the case). For me answer one would have meant that the exile just took part in the war to save the civilians of the outer rim and did nothing he would have to regret light side wise.

Answer two indicates that even with best intentions the exile set something of he regret afterwards. That would be ok if game would once and for all base all that

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It wasnt just left open, it was killed.

 

I killed Sion with 1 -2 hits each time. On difficult at level 33 Jedi.

 

It was like running through a shopping mall at closing time. Was nothing to do and no point to it.

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I just finished the game yesterday, and I'd like to echo what people have said here already. At first I wasn't too disappointed about the ending... it was very abrupt, but I was reaching the point where I thought the game needed to end. However, upon seeing what was planned for the ending, I cannot express anything except utter dismay that OE seemingly was forced to rush the product out the door, and that no effort was made to change this for the PC version, even without an X-mas deadline.

 

Honestly, I would have rather had the extra 30 min - 1 hr required to wrap the game up smoothly and satisfyingly, as opposed to, say, an entire planet like Korriban (which was my favorite planet in KOTOR, and needless to say, a big disappointment in this game).

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