Darth Drabek Posted February 11, 2005 Share Posted February 11, 2005 So I'm reading Homer's The Odyssey for a Greek history class and I've noticed a few things. The Telemachy, the first part of the book bears a strong resemblance to some of KOTOR 2's storyline! Some background... Odysseus, a great warrior and master battle tactician, has just crushed the Trojans and is on his way home when his ship is lost... no one knows what has happened to one of the greatest heroes of the Achaian army. He is presumed dead. Things are looking grim at the beginning of the epic poem. Odysseus's land is overrun with men who wish to marry his wife and claim his fortune. His son Telemachos, who has doubts about his heritage, is too weak to force these usurpers out. Enter gray-eyed Athena, Goddess of Wisdom and a fearsome sight in battle too (as shown in the Illiad). Athena is renowned throughout Greek mythology for her cunning. Her skill at deception has turned the tide of many wars; she even fooled the Trojans greatest warrior, Hector, into believing that she would help him fight Achilles, Greece's greatest warrior - a deception that cost Hector his life. Athena knows that Odysseus is still alive and wants him to return home to clear his land of the usurpers. Odysseus is shown throughout Greek literature to be her favorite mortal - she respects his sharp mind and tactical prowess. So she manipulates Telemachos into searching out some of Odysseus's wartime companions for clues to his whereabouts. She even insinuates that if he succeeds at this endeavor, he will be worthy of his father's great name, even if he is a bastard. So, Telemachos and Athena get a ship and crew and sail to find Nestor, Menelaus and any other notable Greek hero that might have news of Odysseus. I believe Odysseus and Athena are very similar to Revan and Kreia. Given the shared characteristics and even the master/apprentice, mutual respect relationship between Kreia and Revan , I think it's even possible that some aspects of these characters might have been inspired by the epic poems of the Trojan Cycle. Also, Athena's usage of Telemachos for her own purposes is akin to Kreia's behavior toward the exile in TSL. Their journey to find surviving Trojan war luminaries reminded me of the search for the Jedi Masters. Even the way Athena helps Telemachos gain power and skill by lending him her strength has a parallel with TSL (force bonds? gradually reconnecting to the force?). Now if I haven't lost you yet, imagine this: a KOTOR 3 comparable to the rest of The Odyssey. I can't come up with much here....maybe we follow the struggles of Revan with the True Sith and eventually he meets up with the exile and they kick large quanitities of buttocks. So what do you think? Does this make sense? Am I stretching in places? Are there other parallels you've seen? I leave you with a stellar quote from Odysseus/Revan from the Illiad, after he impaled some poor Trojan on his spear: "Death in its rampage outraced you - no escape. Now your father and noble mother will never close your eyes in death - screaming vultures will claw them out of you, wings beating your corpse! But I, if I should die, my comrades-in-arms shall bury me in style!" baby, take off your beret everyone's a critic and most people are DJs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laozi Posted February 11, 2005 Share Posted February 11, 2005 I'd always respected you pretty well until this People laugh when I say that I think a jellyfish is one of the most beautiful things in the world. What they don't understand is, I mean a jellyfish with long, blond hair. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaguars4ever Posted February 12, 2005 Share Posted February 12, 2005 Yes, but that 'stellar quote' more than made up for it. :cool: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Drabek Posted February 12, 2005 Author Share Posted February 12, 2005 I guess my idle conjecture didn't hit the mark then? I suppose reading this stuff and playing the game at the same time I'm bound to mix and match ideas. And to think, I really thought I had something here...sniff. No matter, I still dig mythology and I still think pulling parallels from out of left field is fascinating. baby, take off your beret everyone's a critic and most people are DJs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaguars4ever Posted February 13, 2005 Share Posted February 13, 2005 We forgive you Drabek. ^_^ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Masta Supafly Posted February 14, 2005 Share Posted February 14, 2005 Well, when you consider that the original trilogy followed the hero's quest archetype that's found all throughout the world's mythologies, it isn't too much of a stretch to think the devs picked out some ideas from a specific myth to incorporate into their story. Just my 2 cents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitemithrandir Posted February 14, 2005 Share Posted February 14, 2005 TSL isn't a campbellan epic. Try to follow The Exile and look for campbellan traits and qualities will only lead you to even MORE confusion. Word economics To express my vast wisdom I speak in haiku's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ryan12177 Posted February 15, 2005 Share Posted February 15, 2005 You'd have been better served comparing the similarities between KOTOR and the quest for the Holy Grail... (and no I don't think that works any better) Cathar while a race in KOTOR were a group of heretic's who the early catholic church made it its duty to exterminate. Cathar are also said to be the last holders of the grail.. Sith Academy, an ancient castle of sorts carved into a mountain side, very similar to the castle that the SS soldiers were trained in. Part of their training was the grail mythology and I don't think I need to explain the uniforms. So if you wanted to force it..... you can see the hunt for the StarForge aswan Indiana Jones like hunt for the holy grail and Revan as Hitler for turning reasonable men into an evil axis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitemithrandir Posted February 15, 2005 Share Posted February 15, 2005 :: juxtaposition between KOTOR and Indiana Jones and the Holy Grail <{POST_SNAPBACK}> No, sorry, that really doens't work. Word economics To express my vast wisdom I speak in haiku's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ryan12177 Posted February 15, 2005 Share Posted February 15, 2005 I believe that I said that it doesn't work, myself Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reveilled Posted February 15, 2005 Share Posted February 15, 2005 Acually, it all works out if you compare TSL and the Holy Grail. See, The Exile is King Arthur, Kreia is that old man that guards the bridge, Thermal Detonators are Holy Hand Grenades of Antioch, Visas is Tim the Enchanter, and Darth Nihilus is the Death bunny. Disciple is Sir Lancelot, and Atton is Sir Robin. And Admiral Onasi is the Ruler of Swamp Castle, because Swamp Castle is Telos. Malachor V must be the Castle Aaagh, and Revan is the Holy Grail. In fact, the Holy Grail had a rushed ending that made absolutely no sense whatsoever too! It's true, the paralells between The Sith Lords and The Holy Grail are astounding. "Dark Lord of the Sith? I didn't vote for you." Hawk! Eggplant! AWAKEN! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirk Benedict Posted February 15, 2005 Share Posted February 15, 2005 Oh, you guys are cute. Let's see if anyone can beat this KOTOR = Macross How so? Roy = Revan Rick/Hikaru = the Exile Minmay = Bastila Milia = Handmaiden Max = Canderous Protoculture = The Force *Runs away before getting flamed* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitemithrandir Posted February 15, 2005 Share Posted February 15, 2005 WTH is macross? Some homoerotic anime crap? Word economics To express my vast wisdom I speak in haiku's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirk Benedict Posted February 15, 2005 Share Posted February 15, 2005 Ahem, yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Drabek Posted February 15, 2005 Author Share Posted February 15, 2005 Acually, it all works out if you compare TSL and the Holy Grail. See, The Exile is King Arthur, Kreia is that old man that guards the bridge, Thermal Detonators are Holy Hand Grenades of Antioch, Visas is Tim the Enchanter, and Darth Nihilus is the Death bunny. Disciple is Sir Lancelot, and Atton is Sir Robin. And Admiral Onasi is the Ruler of Swamp Castle, because Swamp Castle is Telos. Malachor V must be the Castle Aaagh, and Revan is the Holy Grail.In fact, the Holy Grail had a rushed ending that made absolutely no sense whatsoever too! It's true, the paralells between The Sith Lords and The Holy Grail are astounding. "Dark Lord of the Sith? I didn't vote for you." <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Heh heh... I think Disciple might be closer to Sir Galahad's self-righteous, pious posturing. Nice point on the ending... ZING OF THE DAY! baby, take off your beret everyone's a critic and most people are DJs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iseo Tiakan Posted February 15, 2005 Share Posted February 15, 2005 I, for one, like to think that the original Knights of the Old Republic was based loosely on The Bourne Identity -- the Ludlum novel, not the movie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Typhinius Posted February 16, 2005 Share Posted February 16, 2005 WTH is macross? Some homoerotic anime crap? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Are you actually knocking anime...on a game forum? Anime has value...not all anime, but some of it is good on surprising levels (not an anime fanboy, though I do rather enjoy some of it, but I dislike people knocking things without experiencing them) Anyway, while I don't think the Odyssey is the basis of Kotorii, drabek did a decent job of tying them together and making comparisons. Anyway, I'm sure Kotor2 has elements of many literary references, as most works of fiction are simply rehashes anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Credulous Posted February 16, 2005 Share Posted February 16, 2005 The story of the Odyssey is a tale of unravelling of the self. Greek heroism is all based around the name - it's less about morality and more about personality. The Iliad sees this in full flight, with the various great heroes doing great - if not necessarily nice - deeds, and adding to their reputations and names. The Odyssey takes this in another direction. Odysseus gradually gives up everything that makes him THE Odysseus - his crew are lost to him, he's forced to give a false name, and he enters his kingdom as a beggar. He deconstructs himself as a person. The Sith Lords might be seen as adding the christian concept of redemption, or catharsis through suffering, onto this theme, but 'redeeming' oneself through purgatory is never part of the Odyssey - Odysseus never becomes a better man through what he suffers, or for that matter a worse one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitemithrandir Posted February 16, 2005 Share Posted February 16, 2005 I'm sorry, all I learned about greek epics in college was the trend that if one were to read about a nice, happy guy with a good family and a content life, he's about 2 pages away from a spear throw to the head. Word economics To express my vast wisdom I speak in haiku's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Credulous Posted February 16, 2005 Share Posted February 16, 2005 Then you know everything you really need to know about Greek tragedy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DSLuke Posted February 16, 2005 Share Posted February 16, 2005 I think that Revan's tale after the point he leaves the known space has more similarities with the Oyssey than the rest of TSL story. I mean that Revan leaves his place to fight an enemy (true Sith= Trojans) then Bastila is left behind and struggles while others try to steal Revan's dark throne (like Penelope was doing back in Ithaca). Though I must admit this fits much better for a DS play. And by the light of the moon He prays for their beauty not doom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Drabek Posted February 16, 2005 Author Share Posted February 16, 2005 All right, some serious speculation! I think that Revan's tale after the point he leaves the known space has more similarities with the Oyssey than the rest of TSL story. I mean that Revan leaves his place to fight an enemy (true Sith= Trojans) then Bastila is left behind and struggles while others try to steal Revan's dark throne (like Penelope was doing back in Ithaca). Though I must admit this fits much better for a DS play. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> That is quite an interesting idea. The story of the Odyssey is a tale of unravelling of the self. Greek heroism is all based around the name - it's less about morality and more about personality. The Iliad sees this in full flight, with the various great heroes doing great - if not necessarily nice - deeds, and adding to their reputations and names. The Odyssey takes this in another direction. Odysseus gradually gives up everything that makes him THE Odysseus - his crew are lost to him, he's forced to give a false name, and he enters his kingdom as a beggar. He deconstructs himself as a person. The Sith Lords might be seen as adding the christian concept of redemption, or catharsis through suffering, onto this theme, but 'redeeming' oneself through purgatory is never part of the Odyssey - Odysseus never becomes a better man through what he suffers, or for that matter a worse one. Excellent analysis... I hadn't thought of that. I especially like the deconstruction part. I'm sorry, all I learned about greek epics in college was the trend that if one were to read about a nice, happy guy with a good family and a content life, he's about 2 pages away from a spear throw to the head. This is true as well; it happens all the time in the Illiad. My professor called them "poetic death certificates." baby, take off your beret everyone's a critic and most people are DJs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Posted February 17, 2005 Share Posted February 17, 2005 So I saw that movie Troy with Brad Pitt. It was a pretty good movie and I'd definately reccomend it. I think it had something to do with Jedi and Sith. There was this one scene where Malak steals Revan's woman and then Revan comes to steal her back but she doesn't want to go. And then eventually Revan drags Malak's brother around behind the Ebon Hawk and Jolee goes to beg for the body back. I think that's pretty accurate. From what I hear that dead Greek guy didn't do a very accurate job of adapting the movie into his poem. Who wants to read poetry anyway? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Credulous Posted February 17, 2005 Share Posted February 17, 2005 Heck yeah. Story of Revan? Oliver Stone wanted to film that but couldn't get the rights from Lucas' grasp with a crowbar. So a few script changes, set the thing in the past, and they rename it 'Alexander'. The bit with Malak riding the AT-AT is cool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Posted February 17, 2005 Share Posted February 17, 2005 If that's true then I think they must have gotten confused with the characters and accidentally cast The Disciple as the main character. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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